Whites supporting LRL fraud?

[Infamy]

Is Whites happy to be associated with the LRL fraud?

Its one think to have a free site its another to allow fraudsters to operate on it, especially when it leads to deaths.

Just so you get the message here are the latest individuals to be arrested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10269170.stm

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Infamy

Is Whites happy to be associated with the LRL fraud?

Its one think to have a free site its another to allow fraudsters to operate on it.

Just so you get the message here are the latest individuals to be arrested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10269170.stm

This site is personally owned by Carl. It has no association with Whites Electronics.

[Infamy]

I don't split hairs when it leads to loss of life, do you?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Infamy

I don't split hairs when it leads to loss of life, do you?

I don't see how this relates to Geotech. Of course, no-one here condones the sale of fake bomb detectors, or perhaps you think otherwise?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Qiaozh

I don't see how this relates to Geotech. Of course, no-one here condones the sale of fake bomb detectors, or perhaps you think otherwise?

I was going to post the same. I couldn't find White's connected to LRL fraud or anything in the article at the link Infamy posted.
Infamy's link article says organisations in the UK under investigation, not White's Electronics. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10269170.stm

Originally Posted by From BBC News link

Sites raided were linked to Global Tech, of Kent, Grosvenor Scientific, in Devon, and Scandec, of Nottingham.

Cash and hundreds of the devices have been seized, and a number of people are due to be interviewed under caution on suspicion of fraud.

The boss of another firm that sold detectors remains on police bail.

Jim McCormick, 53, of ATSC Ltd in Sparkford, Somerset, was originally arrested in January on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation.

Does Infamy have secret information that White's tooled up to sell empty plastic gizmos to locate bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Infamy

Its one think to have a free site its another to allow fraudsters to operate on it, especially when it leads to deaths.

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

[Infamy]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

I do know why, but is it worth running this site into the ground?

[Geo]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

Hi Carl.

I wondered but i have not the answer!!!

Regards

[kt315]

I too ask American people and people with good English to confirm our efforts for full deleting LRL frauds topics from the site. why you are silent? why you are so cynical if you see Geotech is the frauds' accumulated paradise place worldwide? what is Remote Sensing for you?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by kt315

what is Remote Sensing for you?

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16343

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by kt315

I too ask American people and people with good English to confirm our efforts for full deleting LRL frauds topics from the site. why you are silent? why you are so cynical if you see Geotech is the frauds' accumulated paradise place worldwide? what is Remote Sensing for you?

I speak fairly good English, and I can confirm you have an interest to delete all LRL fraud topics from this site.
Both you and WM6 as well as Infamy are confirmed to be forum members who want to see all LRL fraud topics deleted from Geotech.

I doubt Carl-NC agrees that he also wants all LRL fraud topics deleted from his forums. In fact, as owner of this site, Carl-NC could delete all LRL topics, and even the entire Remote Sensing forum if he chose to. But he has never deleted anything except posts which are personally abusive. Maybe the majority of forum members are silent because they also agree with Carl that they don't want the fraudulent LRL posts deleted. Can you think of a reason why not?
I can think of several reasons I don't want to see the LRL posts deleted:

Some reasons not to delete fraudulent LRL topics from forum posts at Geoteh:
1. There are few LRL forums surviving on the internet at all. Most become dead forums after a short burst of enthusiasm. These kind of forums generally revert to becoming message boards for a small group of friends, and are not a suitable place for an average curious person to look for a large database of information about the LRL topics. Because Geotech has one of the strongest LRL forums, it is a place where people come to learn the facts.

2. This is one of the few places on the internet where anyone who registers can make a post about any LRL and say what they want about the LRLs. Most other LRL forums are heavily moderated in a manner that only one point of view is allowed to be posted. Geotech is focused on the technical aspects of metal locating equipment, while other public LRL forums are focused on subjective anecdotes and attacking the character of other members. I don't see as much in the way of technical details at other forums like we see at Geotech.

3. Geotech is the only forum which uses technical knowledge to educate people about LRL frauds. The Geotech Remote Sensing forum has three simple rules which put any LRL claims into the open for critical review:

• You must be a registered user to post here. Guests may read.
• Be polite. Name calling will get you banned quickly.
• Be factual. If you make an extraordinary claim, be prepared to get challenged.

This is a mechanism where anyone may demand facts rather than unsubstantiated claims. It is this feature which allows thousands of readers to see how any particular LRL does or does not perform. An average reader can come here and read to see what response an LRL enthusiast has offer when a technically knowledgeable person challenges his claims. And not only do readers see the dialog of LRL enthusiasts declining challenges, they see actual photos of the insides of many LRL frauds, and circuit diagrams to show what kind of electronics these devices have inside (in the cases where they actually have electronic circuits).

4. From a philosophical and historical background, there is a large body of evidence that shows censorship does not work to eliminate bad ideas. In cases where "bad" ideas were censored, the people who wanted to know these ideas always found a way. No amount of making rules of "illegal" ideas stopped people from finding the information they wanted, just as no amount of rules ever stopped people from finding a way to go treasure hunting.

But a method that does work is education. When all points of view are allowed, then any intelligent person can look at all the different ideas, and decide which is right for himself. Without a place like Geotech, these same people would have little information. Maybe they would only see what they read on a fraudulent website, or what someone tells them. Maybe this would be enough to convince them to buy a non-working device. When an average consumer goes online to learn about a product, he looks for honest reviews. If he sees only one point of view at a website, he knows it is slanted, and not to be trusted as honest. But if he hears many points of view, then he can see nobody has kept people from talking about the bad as well as the good, and he is much more likely to continue reading to learn what people have to say about the product.

How often do you see a post at Geotech asking if a particular detector works or not, then see a lot of posts advising the person about that detector? Haven't you read hundreds of posts warning people not to buy certain brands and models? Haven't thousands of dollars been saved by people who would have wasted their money? These are only the very small percentage of readers who decide to post a question. There are hundreds more who simply read this forum, and they see the answers without needing to ask any questions. Are these the forum posts you want to see removed?

Fraudsters operating in Geotech?
What about fraudsters operating here -- when it leads to deaths?
What fraudsters are causing deaths here at Geotech?
The deaths I read about are from a group of LRL producers who have multimillion dollar contracts to deliver non-working bomb detectors to the military in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries. These are not treasure finding machines, and none of the people involved are operating here in Geotech. The appearance is both the sellers and buyers of these fraud detectors are aware they don't work, and are happy to give these detectors to unknowing users because they are becoming rich from government approved money during the sales transaction. While this bribery cannot be proved, people are dying because they are instructed to rely on these detectors to keep them safe from bombs. What does this have to do with Geotech?

For one, none of the companies or individuals involved in this fraud operate at Geotech. But if they did, I doubt many Iraqi or Afghan soldiers read the Geotech forums.
But let's suppose there are people using fake bomb detectors who are reading the Geotech forum to see if they work or not.
What would they find in their search?
Do you suppose they would find some hint of a warning here at Geotech instead of hearing how they work fine like the bomb detector salesmen tell them?

Originally Posted by Theseus

Warning!!!! ... See here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16243

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

...stuffed full of do-nothing garbage
... claims of this unit are blatantly false
... what it appears to be: useless garbage
... complete and utter nonsense
... etc. etc. etc. - See here: http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/page...le=reports.dat

Originally Posted by J_Player

Take a look at this page: http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/

There are hundreds more pages and thousands of posts showing warnings of fraud LRLs in the Geotech Remote Sensing forums.
It appears to me that Geotech has one of the few forums that tells the real story behind fake detectors. I doubt this would happen if these fraud LRL posts would be deleted here.

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Both you and WM6 as well as Infamy are confirmed to be forum members who want to see all LRL fraud topics deleted from Geotech.

Please J_Player, read Sceptic Declaration again, there is nothing about LRL topics deleting.

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16343

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by WM6

Please J_Player, read Sceptic Declaration again, there is nothing about LRL topics deleting.

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16343

My post was an answer to kt315 who asked American people and people with good English to confirm efforts for full deleting LRL frauds topics from the site.
I can see you are not an American, and you don't have a good enough comprehension of English to understand I was replying to kt315's request.

This thread was started accusing White's of supporting LRL fraud.
If it is your intention to recruit followers into your declarations, then why not try to recruit them from the thread where you posted them?
Why do you post it again here, where the topic is "Whites supporting LRL fraud", replying to a request for American people and people with good English to confirm "efforts for full deleting LRL frauds topics from the site"?

Was your post intended to confirm "efforts for full deleting LRL fraud topics from the site" like kt315 requested?
Or was it intended to revive your previous attempt to recruit people into your collection of "declarations"?

Best wishes,
J_P

[kt315]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

This site is personally owned by Carl. It has no association with Whites Electronics.

now it has. if Carl in White's he says as White's presenter. you can visit another forums for example http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalD...275761405.html

PLEASE be more honest in some matters, Qiaohi. the site itself also has not assotiation with LRL and LRL frauds, you did want to say it geotechers?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by kt315

now it has. if Carl in White's he says as White's presenter. you can visit another forums for example http://members5.boardhost.com/MetalD...275761405.html

PLEASE be more honest in some matters, Qiaohi. the site itself also has not assotiation with LRL and LRL frauds, you did want to say it geotechers?

The situation is actually very clear.

The Remote Sensing Forum is a place for open technical discussion of long-range locating devices, both legitimate and suspect. It is the only forum on the internet that allows both sides of the argument to be presented, even though the administrators are skeptics. Moderation of the discussions is kept to a bare minimum to allow both proponents and skeptics to "work" together.

There is no support from either parties to support fraudulent devices that can cause death or injury. In general, suspect devices will only lose you some hard-earned money and buy you an expensive education. Advertising fraudulent bomb detection equipment would never be allowed.

Let's get back to the usual banter and heated/friendly discussions of the pseudo-scientific principles that underly LRLs, and cease these groundless accusations.

[Infamy]

This is an example of what is wrong with your approach to allowing LRL promotion on this site.

The forum for LRL fraud is Remote Sensing, which is a scientifically proven discipline. By attaching a fraud to Remote Sensing it is given a status it does not deserve, eg (Scientology a religious body with no basis in science) To muddy the waters even further, if this is coupled to users that are not native English speakers very soon what is intended to expose LRL fraud becomes an LRL promotional tool, a trap of unintended consequences.

If you are going to keep LRL fraud on this site I suggest it is put in a place just for LRL fraud eg 'LRL Myths Forum'.
secondly the evidence you have collected and written up Carl be given 'sticky' status so people are fully aware of what they are getting into.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Infamy

... secondly the evidence you have collected and written up Carl be given 'sticky' status so people are fully aware of what they are getting into.

It's here -> http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/page...&file=main.dat

Or perhaps you missed it?

[goldfinder]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Personally, I'm a very vocal skeptic of LRLs. I've spent a ton of money buying them and exposing the scams, and even been sued for my efforts. Yet I still allow people -- even proponents -- to discuss them on my web site. Have you ever wondered why?

- Carl

I am quite happy with Carl's LRL forum. There is nothing bad about discussing a potentially very useful discovery if someone came up with a real working LRL that is duplicatable and does in fact detect beyond the range of current metal detectors.

To me trying to invent an LRL is a scientific endeavor. Science aims to discover how the universe functions. Many of science's theories have gone by the wayside in the past when new discoveries invalidated wrong theories. So despite the fact that current science says an LRL is not feasible, is a non sequitur, the quest is worth the effort.

Goldfinder

[thepest]

I'm sorry.... but..... there is a thing in this country of Americans that speak good and not so good english.... It is consistantly disrepsected and ridiculed by other's....Especially from other country's.... It's the 1ST Amendment of our Constitution... and it garunteees everyone a right of say.... no matter where they're from.... no matter how out of whack others think their opinions are.... If You Are Insulted By Freedom Of Speach???? Don't Listen.... It Ai'nt Rockett Science.... You Can Tell By My Spullin How Well Edumacated I Am...... I Ai'nt Talkin Nun Too Good English Neither.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by thepest

I'm sorry.... but..... there is a thing in this country of Americans that speak good and not so good english.... It is consistantly disrepsected and ridiculed by other's....Especially from other country's.... It's the 1ST Amendment of our Constitution... and it garunteees everyone a right of say.... no matter where they're from.... no matter how out of whack others think their opinions are.... If You Are Insulted By Freedom Of Speach???? Don't Listen.... It Ai'nt Rockett Science.... You Can Tell By My Spullin How Well Edumacated I Am...... I Ai'nt Talkin Nun Too Good English Neither.

In priciple you are right.
But all is relative and Freedom Of Speach too.
If you dont believe, then try to defend publicly Al-Qaeda and you will see how Freedom Of Speach practically work in USA.
I think that goal of LRL scam intolerances is to protect Human Rights and not to exclusive protect only Freedom Of Speach.
One Human Rights are limited by Human Rights of other people.

[thepest]

@-----> WM6 : it is my opinion..... that you're comparing apples and oranges..... but..... i respect your right to say so.....
if someone wants to spend the 2 bits on a permit....to stand on a soap box...... and talk to an empty house..... it's they're right..... it does'nt mean we're listening or suportin them..... it just means they got the right to do it....
leaving this forum up.... is the right thing to do.... anyone who has taken a seriouse look at this thing.... has backed clean off it.... you shut it down... and it all goes underground.....then the allure is more powerfull....
this way.... it's in the light.... and expossed for what it is..... wether you beleive or not is on the beholder.....
can we quit all this and have beer now

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by thepest

@-----> WM6 : it is my opinion..... that you're comparing apples and oranges..... but..... i respect your right to say so.....
if someone wants to spend the 2 bits on a permit....to stand on a soap box...... and talk to an empty house..... it's they're right..... it does'nt mean we're listening or suportin them..... it just means they got the right to do it....
leaving this forum up.... is the right thing to do.... anyone who has taken a seriouse look at this thing.... has backed clean off it.... you shut it down... and it all goes underground.....then the allure is more powerfull....
this way.... it's in the light.... and expossed for what it is..... wether you beleive or not is on the beholder.....
can we quit all this and have beer now

Funny thing about rights... Everybody thinks they are entitled to rights. But the fact is the only rights we have are those which are granted by a governing body.
Different countries grant different rights to their subjects, and different forums grant different rights to their members.

We are lucky the Remote Sensing forum is not one of those forums where only certain classes of people are permitted to join, and only certain opinions are permitted.
There are a lot of those around which only allow viewpoints to be posted that are approved by the forum administrators.
But Geotech allows full freedom of expression for any discussion that someone wants to bring to the table.
Is there a better way to get to the heart of an issue?
Suppose someone brought the topic of beer to the table, for example... ain't it time?


J_P

[WM6]

Can all sorts of threats to Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms to be protected by Freedom of Speech and/or Human Rights?

Can speech against Freedom of Speech to be protected by Freedom of Speech?

Can public solicitations to criminal acts to be protected by Freedom of Speech?

Where can we put here LRL scam criminals, false LRL scam propaganda, and LRL scam advocacy. Are all this pro or contra Human Rights and Freedoms?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by WM6

Can all sorts of threats to Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms to be protected by Freedom of Speech and/or Human Rights?

Can speech against Freedom of Speech to be protected by Freedom of Speech?

Can public solicitations to criminal acts to be protected by Freedom of Speech?

Where can we put here LRL scam criminals, false LRL scam propaganda, and LRL scam advocacy. Are all this pro or contra Human Rights and Freedoms?

"Can all sorts of threats to Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms to be protected by Freedom of Speech and/or Human Rights"?

Of course they can be protected by freedom of speech.
Why should anyone be forced to keep their mouth closed when they want to tell other people what is on their mind?
You don't like what they are saying?
Then this is YOUR PROBLEM.

So how can you deal with someone who says things you don't like to hear?
Should you ban them?
Or should you send ninja assassins to remove them?

Hahahaaa.
A lot of people tried those methods before, and they discovered that they don't work.
when you try to remove people who want to say things you don't want to hear, then everyone sees you to be the Nazi gestapo who will not tolerate anything except what you want to hear.
And they stop listening to you.
Then they listen to the people who you want to remove.
This makes a second problem for you...
Now you must also stop the people from listening as well as stopping people from talking about things that you don't want them to say.

Some people like to live in an environment of censorship.
It is the wonderful place where people are not permitted to say anything you don't want them to say.
This is a great way to promote your favorite ideas, and to stop all ideas that you don't like.
You can put people in prison when they say things that are not popular, and books are burned if they have stories of wrong thinking.
It is the wonderful land where only right thinking is allowed.
The only problem is .... who is in charge to decide what is right thinking and what is wrong thinking.

Will it be the Christian god who in charge to decide about right and wrong thinking?
Or the Muslim God?
Or Buddha?
Or maybe the Genghis Khan?
Or maybe Hitler?
Or maybe you should be in charge to decide what is right thinking and wrong thinking?

Wasn't it a wonderful time during the French and Spanish inquisitions when people were executed for wrong thinking and wrong talk?
Take a look back and see how right the censors were during those times.
It seems to me not many people even remember what wrong things were said and done back then.
Do you think the wrong ideas people had back then are still wrong ideas today?

Have we forgot that those people who were censored centuries ago were thinking the their thoughts even when they were not allowed to talk about them publicly?
They had ideas in their head that were prohibited to be thought about...!
And today, nothing is changed.
Any ideas that someone tries to censor will still be thought and will continue to propagate among the people who like these banned ideas.
The question becomes... who will be the king who decides what ideas are good and bad?
Who decides what is right thinking and wrong thinking?

In metal detecting, the only ideas I have seen anyone try to ban is dowsing and long range locating.
So suppose we try to ban both of these ideas.
First, it is an offensive gesture against anyone who wants to investigate these ideas to see if they have any value.
Second, it is impossible to stop people from thinking about dowsing and LRLs.
Third, there is no purpose to stop people from thinking about and investigating these ideas.

What is the worst that can happen when a person investigates dowsing and LRLs?
Suppose a person investigates and decides they are good working science.
Maybe they don't have the intellect to understand that fake bomb detectors fail to protect people from dying in war zones.
And maybe they are not smart enough to notice they have not found any treasure with using their LRL.

...Who cares?
We are looking at a very few persons who are interested in LRL stuff.
These are people who can become poor if they spend enough money for fake treasure hunting locators.
How can it possibly hurt you if a handful of hobbyists spend their money or their time to play with treasure detectors?
The fact is it does not hurt you.

The only people who are being hurt are people who are forced to use fake bomb detectors to keep themselves safe in a war zone.
This has nothing to do with treasure hunters and hobbyists.
This has everything to do with government corruption and fraud.
It happens because government officials are willing to lie to the people who they are supposed to protect in order to get rich from the manufacturers of fake bomb detectors.
It happens because the corrupt people who force citizens to use these fake bomb detectors are confident that there will be no free forums where citizens can read the warnings for fake bomb detectors.

If you read the Geotech forum, you will find we are one of the most vocal places on the internet that warns against the fake bomb detectors as well as fake treasure detectors.
If people were not permitted to make claims that they have magic treasure finders and bomb finders, then Geotech engineers would have nothing to complain about, and no warnings to make.
A condition of censorship will not help to prevent people from dying from fake bomb detectors. Nor would it help to prevent people from buying fake treasure detectors.
A condition of censorship will close one of the only places people can read to learn the truth about fake detectors.

We already see the forums that do not permit LRL talk... these forums do no good for warning people.
The only people who visit these forums are people who are interested in conventional metal detecting.... not people who want to know the facts about LRLs.
Only Geotech and Tnet do much of a job to warn people of the dangers.
If Geotech was to decide to ban all LRL posts, then all the warnings would end.
Nobody would come here to read the reports of whether an LRL works or not, because they would know there is no information here for current LRL events, and no news for the latest scams to watch out for.

Presently, nearly half of the Geotech readers are reading the Remote Sensing forum.
This is nearly the amount of readers we find in all the technical forums put together.
What other place on the internet has this much readership where people can read warnings about fake scam locators?

The reason why people come here to read Geotech is because they know this is the premier forum for technical based evaluations of all sorts of metal detecting technology.
They know Geotech is ready for all people who claim to have a new technology, and the facts will be quickly separated from the fiction here.
If the people who promote fake scam locators were banned, then readers would stop reading here because they would see us as a slanted forum that only permits our own point of view and bans wrong ideas that we don't like.

That is the bottom line.
Geotech can only make fraud warnings if it is a free and open forum where people can say what is on their mind, whether we like their ideas or not.
The proof is in the whining we hear from LRL manufacturers who demand that we stop publishing bad opinions about their equipment.

There is no threat from hobbyists experimenting with their VLF LRLs and dowsing rods.
The problem to be dealt with is the manufacturer of LRLs who sell fake detectors to ignorant treasure hunters, or who bribe government officials to pay high prices for their fake bomb detectors.

Best wishes,
J_P