In my system, in the radio...

[Esteban]

... is the phase shift.

Exactly as I made with a FM radio since more than 20 years ago! So, IR can be used for electronic LRL.

[Fred]

you should read it again Esteban

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Fred

you should read it again Esteban

You mean an FM radio cannot receive acoustic waves?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by J_Player

You mean an FM radio cannot receive acoustic waves?

Best wishes,
J_P

Of course, in the paper is used microphone, but in radio appears variation in tone. I use other way. How many times I'll repeat it?

[Fred]

Now i am a skeptic

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Fred

Now i am a skeptic

Congratulations, you're in the correct point!

[Seden]

Fred,

You need to not only read the text again but think through how the light beam would be affected by the reaction of the material being radiated. Esteban's method is correct and logical.

Now I am skeptical of you Fred. The light beam is being modulated just as if it were hitting a mirror that was shaking. In a way it's similar to the old system of using a long spring to create reverb in a guitar amplifier.

Thank you for being patient Esteban. Keep up the good work.

Randy

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Seden

Fred,

You need to not only read the text again but think through how the light beam would be affected by the reaction of the material being radiated. Esteban's method is correct and logical.

Now I am skeptical of you Fred. The light beam is being modulated just as if it were hitting a mirror that was shaking. In a way it's similar to the old system of using a long spring to create reverb in a guitar amplifier.

Thank you for being patient Esteban. Keep up the good work.

Randy

I did think about it. Isn't the material Esteban is irradiating the top layer of dirt? What seems hard to understand is how an IR light beam from an IR LED drawing a maximum of maybe 50ma can cause buried gold to become heated, considering the layer of soil stops the beam as you scan across the ground at long range. In fact, most IR LEDs beams begin to diffuse after a few inches so they are no longer truly a beam like a laser by the time they are 10 feet ahead of you. And being diffused at this distance as well as held to a shallow angle near to horizontal, any heating power remaining is also diffused as you scan it in front of you.

The page that Esteban posted shows an acoustically isolated container filled with inert gas that directs chopped IR light through a window to beat down directly on the target. It does not show that the target is hidden under dirt which is being illuminated at a shallow angle from an IR LED at some distance. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem that shining an IR led 10 feet ahead on the surface of the dirt to identify metals that are buried is the same.

The diagram I see is not "exactly as Esteban made with a FM radio since more than 20 years ago". And I suspect any conclusions to the effect that it is "exactly the same" are untested speculations. That is, unless someone can provide some test data to show that the buried targets are actually verified to begin vibrating on a molecular level at the time when an angled IR LED illumination is swept past the ground where it is buried. A microphone monitoring a sample in an inert gas container buried four inches below the surface would convince me.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

Fair enough J_P but consider the long time buried gold having some of it becoming leached and the gold atoms reaching the surface via the wicking effect. How much is needed to cause even the slightest changes in the IR light is unknown. Yes I would use a IR laser to be sure which would be more effective and have bought one for just such a test.

Other than the wicking effect of the atoms of gold I would tend to agree as light does not penetrate very far in dirt. Laser would do a better job but not to depth that's for sure and would certainly do the job of heating the gold atoms on the surface.

Yes we can play verbal tennis all day long and our opinions are like peoples noses, everyone has one. One of us will have to build and test it for the group and offer the results. Sort of like you volunteering to test the RangerTell wouldn't you think?



Randy

[Esteban]

Remember that the IR light is a long antenna focussed on target (this work better when target is buried for long time). Maybe 2 IR leds don't hot the target, but detect the variations and receiver sniff the difference. Don't know if this IR beam detect the molecular vibrations of materials. IR is also sensitive to copper and bronze, lead is "cold" material.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Seden

Fred,

You need to not only read the text again but think through how the light beam would be affected by the reaction of the material being radiated. Esteban's method is correct and logical.

Now I am skeptical of you Fred. The light beam is being modulated just as if it were hitting a mirror that was shaking. In a way it's similar to the old system of using a long spring to create reverb in a guitar amplifier.

Thank you for being patient Esteban. Keep up the good work.

Randy

I am sorry you became sceptical of me so quickly.

Reading it carefully, i could see IR penetration was a few microns or molecular layers.Then that the material should vibrate- while buried - and vibration effects should escape the medium.
All this with a simple IR led that in no way can heat a burried target, or make it "oscillate".
Then i became skeptical

Sorry Esteban, but i see absolutely no progress in you experiments, on the contrary.Maybe you are becoming aware that humans often fail - mislead by their passions - But i will continue reading your posts with interest.


Regards,
Fred.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Seden

Fair enough J_P but consider the long time buried gold having some of it becoming leached and the gold atoms reaching the surface via the wicking effect. How much is needed to cause even the slightest changes in the IR light is unknown. Yes I would use a IR laser to be sure which would be more effective and have bought one for just such a test.

Other than the wicking effect of the atoms of gold I would tend to agree as light does not penetrate very far in dirt. Laser would do a better job but not to depth that's for sure and would certainly do the job of heating the gold atoms on the surface.

Yes we can play verbal tennis all day long and our opinions are like peoples noses, everyone has one. One of us will have to build and test it for the group and offer the results. Sort of like you volunteering to test the RangerTell wouldn't you think?



Randy

You might have a point about microscopic gold atoms that leach to the surface. But the ions measured below the soil are in the parts per trillion for gold that has been buried for tens of thousands of years and longer. So we are talking about negligible amounts at the surface, especially for micro gold atoms that leach from targets which have been buried less than a few hundred years.

The experiment to test it is easy. All you need is a sealed container with an IR transparent cover on the top. The soil around it will act as an acoustic barrier. A glass jar with a microphone leading to an audio amp would do, wouldn't it?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Fred

I am sorry you became sceptical of me so quickly.

Reading it carefully, i could see IR penetration was a few microns or molecular layers.Then that the material should vibrate- while buried - and vibration effects should escape the medium.
All this with a simple IR led that in no way can heat a burried target, or make it "oscillate".
Then i became skeptical

Sorry Esteban, but i see absolutely no progress in you experiments, on the contrary.Maybe you are becoming aware that humans often fail - mislead by their passions - But i will continue reading your posts with interest.


Regards,
Fred.

I'm leaving practical experiences 30 years in this matter, differences...

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Fred

I am sorry you became sceptical of me so quickly.

Reading it carefully, i could see IR penetration was a few microns or molecular layers.Then that the material should vibrate- while buried - and vibration effects should escape the medium.
All this with a simple IR led that in no way can heat a burried target, or make it "oscillate".
Then i became skeptical

Sorry Esteban, but i see absolutely no progress in you experiments, on the contrary.Maybe you are becoming aware that humans often fail - mislead by their passions - But i will continue reading your posts with interest.


Regards,
Fred.

Hi Fred,
Did you read what Seden wrote?
Gold can leach as ions and become traces of microscopic gold particles mixed in the soil at the surface. Maybe not much gold, but suppose we built a large IR searchlight ... maybe 50 IR lasers in a cylinder all pulsed at the same time and aimed it at the dirt. If there was enough power, then maybe the microscopic gold particles at the surface would vibrate hard enough to cause the dirt to start jiggling. Then you could walk around and listen for the sound of oscillating dirt to find your treasure location.

But be careful not to look toward the IR lasers.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

With only 2 IR leds you detect a 0.5 cm long 3 mm diameter copper wire at 5 meters, buried 10 cm or less.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I'm leaving practical experiences 30 years in this matter, differences...

If you don´t progress, you regress...
Nothing personal Esteban, just about facts.

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Fred,
Did you read what Seden wrote?
Gold can leach as ions and become traces of microscopic gold particles mixed in the soil at the surface. Maybe not much gold, but suppose we built a large IR searchlight ... maybe 50 IR lasers in a cylinder all pulsed at the same time and aimed it at the dirt. If there was enough power, then maybe the microscopic gold particles at the surface would vibrate hard enough to cause the dirt to start jiggling. Then you could walk around and listen for the sound of oscillating dirt to find your treasure location.

But be careful not to look toward the IR lasers.

Best wishes,
J_P

Yes, JP, we should try this sometime.Just a truck-sized detector should suffice.
but then i wonder what we can do if the soil only contain gold particles and nuggets/coins/bars....

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Fred

...Yes, JP, we should try this sometime. Just a truck-sized detector should suffice.
but then i wonder what we can do if the soil only contain gold particles and nuggets/coins/bars....

Hi Fred,
If you are using a 10 KW generator to power the IR laser array and you come to some gold nuggets and bars,
then you will be in danger of possible injury or death from melting gold objects moving about.

I suggest you take suitable precautions to keep safe from injury:

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Esteban

With only 2 IR leds you detect a 0.5 cm long 3 mm diameter copper wire at 5 meters, buried 10 cm or less.

For sure, if you know where wire is buried. As always in your magic tricks.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Fred

but then i wonder what we can do if the soil only contain gold particles and nuggets/coins/bars....

I meant "but then i wonder what we can do if the soil only contain gold particles and NO nuggets/coins/bars"
Forgot to read before posting

[Seden]

"but then i wonder what we can do if the soil only contain gold particles and NO nuggets/coins/bars"

That's a very valid question and in that case you end up with an empty hole in the ground. That equally applies to Geochemical Prospecting which happened to me several years ago. I had soil samples from several areas and this one spot had so much micron gold the test tube bubbled over and I thought EUREKA!! Upon drywashing the soil and running the cons I came up empty handed and realized I was in an area that could only be leached to get the gold out but boy howdy it is a very pregnant spot!

Randy

[Esteban]

[quote=Fred;102833]If you don´t progress, you regress...
Nothing personal Esteban, just about facts.]

Who said I'm in regression? You? Facts? I have 1,000!

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Fred

I meant "but then i wonder what we can do if the soil only contain gold particles and NO nuggets/coins/bars"
Forgot to read before posting

I think this is not normal in you...

[detectoman]

no te desesperes esteban con todos estos comentarios yo te entiendo, ya lo has dicho demasiado, y aun no te leen?

[Astrodetect]

Thanks Esteban for your information, I believe your experiences.You are fortunate to have all these experiences.
Now for the skeptics, can somebody please explain with scientific facts why an IR modulated beam CANNOT shift its frequency and phase when its in the presence of an electromagnetic field of a buried metal, or if prefer, in a magnetic field anomaly of a buried metal?
I would like to hear FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Astrodetect

Thanks Esteban for your information, I believe your experiences.You are fortunate to have all these experiences.
Now for the skeptics, can somebody please explain with scientific facts why an IR modulated beam CANNOT shift its frequency and phase when its in the presence of an electromagnetic field of a buried metal, or if prefer, in a magnetic field anomaly of a buried metal?
I would like to hear FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a skeptic about what Esteban posted. But I am not skeptical the question you asked.

My argument is with the words Esteban posted, not what you are asking to prove.
What Esteban posted was a page showing a metal sample in an acoustic isolated container that had a microphone attached to listen for vibrating sounds it makes when a pulsed IR light beam shines on it.

We all read what Esteban posted:

"... is the phase shift.

Exactly as I made with a FM radio since more than 20 years ago! So, IR can be used for electronic LRL."

The fact is it is not exactly the same. It is not even similar. Esteban comes here with the intent to collect his glory as a great experimenter and innovator, which he is. But he distributes misinformation in order to collect his glory. This is the Geotech forum, the most highly respected technical metal locating forum in the world. And it is wrong to use false information to prove you are a glorious innovator. The result is there are readers all over the world believing Esteban's buried gold targets are vibrating under the ground causing RF phase shift, when he has performed no testing to verify there is any vibration happening in his buried target metals. He is publishing his declaration of "Exactly as I made with a FM radio since more than 20 years ago" based on pure speculation.

The fact is Esteban does not know whether his buried targets are vibrating or not. He has not made a single test in all his years to measure any acoustic vibrations as shown in the paper he posted. All he knows is his FM radio sound changes when he shines his detector at a place where he says there is a buried treasure. The proof is easy to make, but he has not done it.

And now you are asking skeptics to explain with scientific facts why an IR modulated beam CANNOT shift its frequency and phase when its in the presence of an electromagnetic field of a buried metal. Nobody here said that can't be done. What I said is the acoustic waves we see in the paper Esteban posted are not the same as what Esteban did with an FM radio since more than 20 years ago. There is a big difference between listening to acoustic sounds of a vibrating chunk of metal, and listening to a variation in a sound from an FM radio that has it's RF altered.

One thing Esteban didn't explain is the sound variation he heard from the FM radio was never verified to be caused by a phase shift. The truth is that Esteban does not know what causes the change in the sound. Maybe it was caused by a phase shift, or maybe it was caused by a second frequency interfering, or maybe some kind of modulation on the carrier. But Esteban has no clue what electronic fluctuation causes the audio change. Can Esteban supply some way to demonstrate that there was a indeed phase shift in the signal received on his FM radio? ... Or is this more speculation that he is assuming must be true because he concluded the buried metal started vibrating?

Has it ever occurred to you that this kind of sloppy chain of logic, where it is ok to speculate to arrive at conclusions could be the basis for where science ends and pseudoscience starts?

How many ignorant people do you suppose will believe they have just read solid proof that an IR LED shining on the dirt will cause buried metal to vibrate? How many wasted arguments must we endure in a forum where the best minds in metal locating are supposed to be at least conversant in the basics of logic enough to show some proof that supports their conclusions?

You said you want FACTS. Yet you have been listening to speculation from Esteban as if it were facts. I have no argument against your question about why a modulated IR beam cannot experience a phase shift. My argument is Esteban is publishing misinformation to collect his glory. His FM receiver is not exactly or even remotely the same as the acoustic apparatus he posted. My argument is it is highly unlikely that an IR LED will cause a buried metal item 10 feet away to begin vibrating to cause a phase shift in an FM broadcast receiver. My second argument is I have yet to see any evidence that there is a phase shift. How does Esteban know the phase has shifted?

My challenge to Esteban is to show real proof that the phase shifts in his FM receiver when he shines his IR LED in the direction of buried treasure. Real proof comes in the form of graphs that are charted by electronic equipment that measure phase shifts. I doubt there is any phase shift. But I may be wrong, so show me.

Also show me some proof buried metal is vibrating when you shine your IR LED on the dirt above it. This is simple to do. Put your sample metal in a glass jar with a microphone attached to listen inside and bury it with 8 cm of dirt on top of it. Then record the sounds that come when you shine the IR led at the dirt.

I am anxious to see these two things. I don't believe the buried metal begins vibrating, nor do I believe your FM receiver is seeing a phase shift. If the sound is changing on your FM receiver, I think it is a change of wave-shape which is commonly referred to as "voice" or "envelope" in audio terms. This is not caused by RF phase shift. Prove me wrong!

Best wishes,
J_P