Big troubles in a little China!

[ivconic]

Interesting text:

"So, metal detector sales uk, what's it all about?
Metal detecting in the uk is a relatively small hobby with only around 15,000 people seriously involved, it is not on a par with say fishing, so the sales of metal detectors is limited to a few large dealers. The smaller dealers eak out a living usually at the whim of the big two, and it is impossible to gain entry to the market unless your face fits, although it is a very good way to make money online due to the extortionate profit margins. Metal detector online sales, are much smaller than say fishing tackle sales, camping equipment, hiking other outdoor pursuits. Add to this that as the high fuel prices bite, more people are curtailing driving to metal detecting rallies or to visit dealers who are far from their home address. This has given rise to the sale of metal detectors online, it has also given rise to reduce the costs and thus still maintain the hobby by fitting vehicles with alternative fuel sources, and also promoted the rise of the price comparison site through people searching for cheap petrol. Also this has had an effect on bicycle sales and motorcycle sales.
Commercial metal detectors are not very robust, or well designed electronically and so a business opportunity or business opportunities has / have arisen to carry out metal detector repairs and metal detector modifications, but again the big two are artificially, and illegally suppressing competition by selectively restricting the supply of spares. This has put fledgling repairers like Pulsar Electronics at a disadvantage. The existing “authorised repairers” CLAIM to use only new or factory approved parts. Interesting that because from what I see, most detectors have electronics design using old and obsolete electronics components bought in bulk from distributors. This is done so they can release the parts to their own “authorised repairer” and freeze out any competition, further proof that they to act illegally and anti competitively from the start.
A few people have tried to sell metal detectors at discount prices, take Discount Detectors, Peach Ideas and Coin Shooters for example, all have been pushed into bankruptcy or just given up through threats of physical violence from various dealers, yet the general public, ignorant of just how sad most of the large importers really are continue to support them by buying from them. The reality is this; these dealers see their customers as gullible suckers ripe for the picking. Using tactics designed along the adage than a fool and his money are soon parted, they blatantly profiteer from those who are most vulnerable. They use lies and pseudo scientific terms to peddle what are, in the main nothing more than expensive toys. Nothing could be further from the truth. They want your money, plain and simple, and when you have problem, they don't want to know. A lot is made of the fact that the metal detector market is so small that it can remain “under the radar” of the trading standards and Office of fair trading, thus those dealers who blatantly flout the law know they stand very little chance of getting caught or prosecuted.
Take one dealer, the Minelab Explorer. Each unit costs them around £495 trade (I know, I've seen their trade price list). They sell onto other dealers for around £635, yet if you haggle directly with them and pay cash, they will let you have one for £690, this would mean that for another dealer to do the same they would only make £55 profit. Not really worth getting out of bed for really . There is a term for this, it is called “Placing your competitor at a disadvantage” and it's highly ILLEGAL, yet this dealer is guilty of it and have been caught doing it 18 months ago, in early 2007, using a hidden camera, and AGAIN a few weeks back in July 2008. yes indeed, direct sales at discount prices if you are the main importer will make you money, but only at the expense of the dealer who is a customer. Why sell Minelab, Fisher, Garrett, or XP? Simple answer is DON'T. Getting involved with these overpriced toys is just too much hassle.

JUST SAY NO!!

We do, and so do a growing army of UK detectorists!!.."




I am trying to properly understand this text. In advance i would say that am very sorry if i misunderstood the point in it.
Yet as i understood ; author is complaining on present, not so good solved and pretty misty situation in relation between major manufacturers and small enterprises? Right?
Somewhere in between is the state with it's also misty and sometimes restrictive fiscal politics.
So...

I understand authors standing point although i do live in a country with much worse situation relating to this subject. Serbia is small country with approx 6-7 million population. Presenting logically small market for such specific industry like md industry is. Was that the main reason or something else, yet there is not neither one legal and official representative of any md manufacturer in this country? Small market...yes, but potential. Potential enough to "catch eye" at some major md manufacturer. I don't think there would be "small" and "large" markets in future. Each market, no matter how small, will be very interesting in near future to any, no matter how "big" manufacturer. Why? Simply, economic crisis, huge competition rise etc..etc.. Major manufacturers must be ready to fight over smallest market in future if want to survive. Especially when we are speaking about this specific kind of industry - md industry.

So i don't really understand how can those be so blind? Why not forming dense net of local representatives? Customer support centers, servicing centers, shops etc..etc..
Ok there is certain "net" at each manufacturer. Not dense enough. Not covering local markets enough. That's why independent enterprises exist. Why not merging those in net? Why not offering them same conditions? Same prerogatives?
I can not offer much philosophy explaining situation in UK, simply because i am not competent to do that. I even never been there!
So there are much more competent people from there who can do that better than me. For example i would take this quoted text as sort of relative competent reference to rely on.
But i can come and be competent to say something about local situation.
Point is that am very interesting in starting something in local to change bad situation which is present now. But don't know how?
Simply to right mail to some major manufacturer? Ahahahhahaha!

I already did that in a past and got no reply!? Ahahahahahaha! Felt like a fool, must admit!
Some unimportant small "ivconic" from some small unknown banana republic asking something!? Who the f.u.c.k he is? No reply!
By achieving some contact and forming some representative center in local, what will do i get? First of all i will get a job! Nice job! Best job man can do in his life is job related to matters that he love and that interests him mostly. Hobby and job in one package! Every other possible and expectabile benefit simply follows out from this first point.

Local area will be than covered - much better situation than now (no coverage at all).
Major manufacturer will extend market a bit. Enough to be payable. With good chances to use that as base for further grow. Cheap jobs in local? Yes, why not! To transfer and dislocate part of production program to local area? Why not? New jobs, new careers, new production lines...new opportunities! Maybe a new product specific to local need? Why not? (Tesoro - Laser example).

Serbian (East European - Balkan peninsula) soil is maybe a quite specific relating composition, mineralization, unique climatic attributes...etc..so it is logical to expect ideas about specific md model or series that suits those unique condition! Why not?
Those can be produced in local by local production resources established, set and owned by major manufacturer. Idea is to adapt general idea to local character.
Mutual benefit from that; lower prices for local customers (cheaper production, no shipment, no import/export taxes and custom taxes, quite more positive and relaxing host state respect and relations to those products) and new market for manufacturer, new resources, progression to future.
Pretty good example could be Microsoft with its global net coverage; global net composed of many local subnets - integration and positive globalisation.
Domestic resources - used and conducted by central manufacturer.
How this to be real and "payable" ? Easy; small steps and small "bites" for a start. Future will distinguish the rest.
I am very interested in starting something similar in local. Only need attention and support of some big manufacturer.
"Only" that....

[Tinkerer]

Ivconic,

You have a very interesting point of view. I have often thought about the Balkan region for marketing the TINKERERS_V1 DISCRIMINATING PI.
The conditions seem to be right, where a discriminating PI could help locating a lot of wonderful ancient treasure that lies hidden under iron contaminated soil.

The big question is: What are the laws? Is it legal to search and recover ancient treasure in Serbia?

Tinkerer

[ivconic]

Another, much better and more illustrative example is FIAT. "Punto" production line is displaced now, from Italy to Serbia. In first year 5000 pieces were produced and already sold !!! Huge public interest pushed manufacturer to plan and start another 5000 cars production in same year! Over any expectations! And all that in "small" and "third party" country and "unimportant" market!
In this year FIAT made more money from that "third party" market than from "first party" () market as USA,Germany,France......etc...etc...
What other benefits? FIAT made more jobs here! Local industry get new life! Another models are planing to be made here also, in future; to cover other nearby small and "third party" markets also. Thing is growing fast and in pretty good direction. Right move!

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Tinkerer

Ivconic,

You have a very interesting point of view. I have often thought about the Balkan region for marketing the TINKERERS_V1 DISCRIMINATING PI.
The conditions seem to be right, where a discriminating PI could help locating a lot of wonderful ancient treasure that lies hidden under iron contaminated soil.

The big question is: What are the laws? Is it legal to search and recover ancient treasure in Serbia?

Tinkerer

I have two answers on that question;

First answer: No matter how restrictive (or not) local law is - always will be huge interest in metal detectors and prospecting. Doesn't matter if that human activity is taken as illegal (or not) by state law.
Especially when we are talking about local mentality (Serbs,Croats,Monte Negro people, Macedonian people , Bosnian people, Albanian people, Bulgarian people) - although those are different nations, those are sharing pretty similar mentality. Sort of unique mentality, meaning; more you restrict those and more you push those - more resistance you will get back! So despite present law restrictions - you simply can not push those people away from such nice thing as metal detector and such nice hobby as prospecting! Ain't not such law, ain't not such government and ain't not such sanctions to stop and prevent this! Simply it is in mentality.
And main question still is: Why? Why to restrict? Why to stop that nice activity? Why not act smart (addressed to state administration and government) and change laws and let people to do what they like and want to do? Why not take UK as model! As best example! Why not making it legal? Why not showing real democracy in practice?

Second answer: local laws are not defined cleary yet. There are some things mentioned and already regulated, refering this subject, but not detailed and not enough. Need urgent improvement!
Metal detector is not unlawful here in Serbia. You may have it. You may take it with you. You may import it (must pay custom taxes etc...)
But you MAY NOT visit sites which are protected by state, proclaimed as archaeological sites. You MUST NOT do nothing which may be characterized as archaeological exploration. You MUST NOT process soil and dig holes out of you personal hold and even than not under 20-30cm depth without special permission...etc...etc...

So... simply, laws are not clear about this, yet...

[ivconic]

By covering more small markets, major manufacturers will also decrease percentage of lost which is present (lately) thanks to fact that there are much independent (and illegal) "enterprises" whose main "business" is to harm copyrights and use genuine knowledge, technology and projects without any obligations to origin inventor and manufacturer.

Next thing is money, price....
If product was made in local (nearby) price would be more acceptable - simply as that. Why paying $1000 something that actually can be made and bought for $600 or even less...???

[Altra]

Ivconic,
You bring up some interesting points. It sounds like in your part of the world, there are real opportunities for metal detector manufactures. Reading your comments, I take it, that you are asking why the manufacturers are ignoring your market?
From a manufacture’s point of view. There are major barriors. Language, political, currency and cultural. All of these can be overcome, but at what cost? So manufactures concentrate on markets they understand with the lowest cost and risk.
You may be the answer to your own question. To have a local dealer network, you need a distributor/importer. You or someone has to become the importer/distributor. You know the language, the law, the banking system and shippers. You set up the dealer network. You put up the money to buy the first large shipment of detectors. The risk to the manufacture has now been shifted to you. You will be rewarded for your hard work and risk taking. That’s how it works, someone local, recognizes a need and fills it! Don’t expect Tesoro to send an english speaking guy to Serbia, to set up a network. He thinks Georgia is a state in the US. It takes someone like you with local knowledge and lots of money.
Interesting subject
mark

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Altra

Ivconic,
You bring up some interesting points. It sounds like in your part of the world, there are real opportunities for metal detector manufactures. Reading your comments, I take it, that you are asking why the manufacturers are ignoring your market?
From a manufacture’s point of view. There are major barriors. Language, political, currency and cultural. All of these can be overcome, but at what cost? So manufactures concentrate on markets they understand with the lowest cost and risk.
You may be the answer to your own question. To have a local dealer network, you need a distributor/importer. You or someone has to become the importer/distributor. You know the language, the law, the banking system and shippers. You set up the dealer network. You put up the money to buy the first large shipment of detectors. The risk to the manufacture has now been shifted to you. You will be rewarded for your hard work and risk taking. That’s how it works, someone local, recognizes a need and fills it! Don’t expect Tesoro to send an english speaking guy to Serbia, to set up a network. He thinks Georgia is a state in the US. It takes someone like you with local knowledge and lots of money.
Interesting subject
mark

"You put up the money to buy the first large shipment of detectors......"

What! Ahhahahahah!
Why oh why should i do that? Why should i buy tons of plastic and metal waste? To make somebody else financially safe and secure (and rich) and me to stay without money and with a lot of junk!
What they gonna give me if i buy in advance 1000 pcs from them? 3% discount!? Ahahahah! No thanks, i don't need it. Let them keep it better! Ahahaha!

Now...that is the main catch! If i was rich enough with a lot of money - i would start my own brand! Why should i need anyone of major manufacturers here in my backyard? Hell no!
Point is in money!
I don't have money - that's why i need backup from some big player!
You mentioned many true things in your post, i agree.
I didn't mean to import finished products, produced by some major manufacturer, not at all. Doing that, both; me and major manufacturer will stay with "short sleeves" at the end. Only host state will remain satisfied - not us.
My idea is to bring major manufacturer here to my "backyard" and to produce those products here - not to import from abroad.
I already noted Philip Morris....than Coca Cola...than US Steel..etc...etc..
There are at least 10 big USA "players" already here, having production lines already. Kind a sure and stable area...already proven.
I don't want to work hard and put money in state pockets and me and my foreign employer to left with "short sleeves" (usual when import is only option).
State with its economic politics must support foreign investments, and state is doing that already (offering some starting credits, less taxes for investors etc..etc...). Foreign investment is meaning more jobs, less social issues, more funds for state budgets...etc..etc..
So..
my idea is to bring production here to local - not just to import and trade. There are more than enough "empty" traders already. No job for all.
Production - not empty trade. These days everybody wants just to trade but not to work, create and produce! Looks like everybody are just dreaming about fast and easy money! No such thing! That's why those are "fast busters"! So traders multiplied in last 20-30 years that much so finally no job for everybody. First hand, second hand, third hand..... prices rises more and more. Nobody satisfied at the end. Recession!
Small production lines ..here and there...under same "brain" ... that's the right thing!
Regards!

[Altra]

I see your point now. You want to create something worth while and lasting for your people. Thats what all people want, but the state and money seem to get in the way. Hope you find it brother

Regards Mark

[ivconic]

State and money...yes, true. I will keep on trying, least. No harm from that. Eventually i might have luck, maybe some of major manufacturers will finally hear and understand my idea...
Cheers!

[WM6]

What is real market potential per year for new MD priced over € 600 in Serbia. 10 maybe 15 such MD from same manufacturer? This is why dream came not true. Potential MD market is saturated and archeo-locations are cleaned. You can convert this in nice hobby but not in business anymore.

[ivconic]

I have been heard such stories even in early '90.
I remember when Eagle IIc appeared. "High end ....perfect... it will clean all the terrains....already cleaned sites...no finds...end of days! ..."
No. It will not happen.
Always will be new customers and new sites to "clean".
Machines are getting old. Must be replaced with new ones. New models will always catch attention, all over again and again.
It is never ending story.
Situation now is even better. Newer machines are mostly uPc oriented, smt, high density pcb's . Once that machine mutilate, who's gonna service it?
Once components getting old and jitters - time to replace whole machine, time to buy new model.
Never ending story.
Last decade mostly roman coins and relics were target. Empty sites? Time to switch to older period! We need better machines? Yes!
Same story with personal computers, many times in the past some people predicted "end of days" for that technology. Wrong!
Metal detectors will live more longer.
Business will survive.
Look cell phones technology today, almost every person have at least one device. Enough? No more customers? I don't think so.
Keep the faith dear friend!

[WM6]

Hope is the only thing we have left. Regretfully, there is no business after hope, only religion.

I think, to do business, Altra is right.

There is simple formula that work: buy some amount of detector (not mean 100 pcs at once, 3x3 enough) to prove that you are serious in your intention, invite manufacturer EU representative for some days on your hacienda (eg. for sightseeing and treasure hunting) and you get exclusive for marketing and servicing their product. Repeat the same with some other main manufacturer and you get MD monopoly in your country (and probably for neighborhood too) special discount prices inclusive.

[ivconic]

However you put it; always is me giving money to them!?
My idea was they to give money to me!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by ivconic

However you put it; always is me giving money to them!?
My idea was they to give money to me!

Unfortunately you have to speculate to accumulate.

[ivconic]

The way i imagined this;
if some manufacturer wants to make break through on some new market,
first find native collaborator with certain resources - capital assets (estate, connections, recognizable name, certain working experiences in those matters...etc..etc..)
Than to come and visit collaborator and analyze present situation and suggested assets. Than to make short assortment and introduction to manufacturer standards.
Than manufacturer to supply collaborator with necessary pool of products ( at least one piece of each model from main offer).
Etc...etc....
That's the right and proper way. I can not imagine other way.
(maybe i am naive)

[Max]

The real problem is that western companies and governments still don't understand that China is a top of technology...

as always they make humor and diversions, but China is not like even 5years ago, is really exploding about technology.

Sum this with low cost of production of goods there and you got the picture: they ARE scared like hell!

Kind regards,
Max

[kt315]

IMO good pix Max... i like this photo... thinking chinese people will rank all world in one chinese order line... not doubt..

[Alexismex]

Hello forum, i can not post image now (before i have),
i make click in manage attachment
but not work i am logged good
What happen... any idea???

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Alexismex

Hello forum, i can not post image now (before i have),
i make click in manage attachment
but not work i am logged good
What happen... any idea???

I have checked your user account and cannot see any problems. What error message are you getting?

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Max

The real problem is that western companies and governments still don't understand that China is a top of technology...

as always they make humor and diversions, but China is not like even 5years ago, is really exploding about technology.

Sum this with low cost of production of goods there and you got the picture: they ARE scared like hell!

Kind regards,
Max

Max i don't think that anybody is scared no more. Why? Simply because high quality products made in China are not cheap at all. Those are expensive same as western products.
We are used to see tons of cheap products made in China already. But those are lowest quality junk products spread everywhere.
But...just for a moment take a look on high quality products prices there!?
Ha,ha,ha! Expensive! Same as western products. No differences at all.
Western manufacturers are respecting some standards and not producing low quality junk from long time ago. That's why we are used on hot western prices and cheap prices from China. But no one really think about quality in those situations. When quality matters than no differences in prices between western products and others made in China.
Quality standards are uniform for whole world....so logically prices must follow that.
Manufacturers from China are smart and know that is very tough to conquer market where some western manufacturer already rules. In USA White's rules, so nobody from China is that mad to try to compete it in USA with same standard metal detectors. Those are smart enough to void that and cover only lower standard products with funny prices.
China manufacturers will rather manufacture cheap junk metal detectors and offer to USA market by funny prices than to invest huge deal of money and try to produce high quality metal detector to also offer it to USA market where White's, Fisher and others are already present and established well.
So...no reason to be scared; expensive product will always stay expensive - no matter where it was made and by whom.

[Alexismex]

Hello Quiaozhi,
No message nothing happen i make click on the manage attachment and nothing happen .
I do not know how to start searching ...the browser?
thank you

[Alexismex]

Hello , i just finish to update firefox ....nothing
It is like my manage attachment is disabled???? when i click on the small box have some small dotted lines around the box... but nothing happen ...no window ...nothing!!!
I want to post some schematics and i can not!!!
thank you for your help

[Geo]

Hi Alexismex.
Until you repair your pc, you can send the schematics to me with email, so to post them here for you

Regards

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Alexismex

Hello Quiaozhi,
No message nothing happen i make click on the manage attachment and nothing happen .
I do not know how to start searching ...the browser?
thank you

What happens if you try a different browser such as IE or Google Chrome?

[Max]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Max i don't think that anybody is scared no more. Why? Simply because high quality products made in China are not cheap at all. Those are expensive same as western products.
We are used to see tons of cheap products made in China already. But those are lowest quality junk products spread everywhere.
But...just for a moment take a look on high quality products prices there!?
Ha,ha,ha! Expensive! Same as western products. No differences at all.
Western manufacturers are respecting some standards and not producing low quality junk from long time ago. That's why we are used on hot western prices and cheap prices from China. But no one really think about quality in those situations. When quality matters than no differences in prices between western products and others made in China.
Quality standards are uniform for whole world....so logically prices must follow that.
Manufacturers from China are smart and know that is very tough to conquer market where some western manufacturer already rules. In USA White's rules, so nobody from China is that mad to try to compete it in USA with same standard metal detectors. Those are smart enough to void that and cover only lower standard products with funny prices.
China manufacturers will rather manufacture cheap junk metal detectors and offer to USA market by funny prices than to invest huge deal of money and try to produce high quality metal detector to also offer it to USA market where White's, Fisher and others are already present and established well.
So...no reason to be scared; expensive product will always stay expensive - no matter where it was made and by whom.

There's a big difference between China and other countries, expecially european or north american:

the cost of work

In europe or USA nobody work for 18 hours (yes, guys) a day, everyday for some dollars/day.

That's the point.

If we talk about quality, ok, machinery and quality rules have costs and cannot be compressed much in China respect other places, but what about workers ?

You pay 10 chinese workers with what you spend for 1 in western country, and even more.

In quality productions you need not just low level workers but technicians and skilled people, but chinese are not stupid, chinese learn fast if properly trained.

So you get the picture: even quality stuff production cost is fairly less in China than other places.

But then why that stuff cost like in western countries ? Simple: china government don't wanna scary too much western countries, make agreements with them and some productions are just for elite buyers , few in economic weight.

They produce at lower prices in China, even quality stuff, then sell at western prices cause don't wanna western countries do some protection against quality stuff made in China imported there.

Sum to that western manifacturers of hi-quality stuff often produce parts in China, for reasons, mentioned, and then just assembly things in-house in the USA or Europe.

It's a game, all plays for now and all win for now, but future scare western governments.

Cause when China will be recognized as producer of quality and technology there will be few to do for western located companies to survive such competition.

Kind regards,
Max