Demistifing ion chambers and snake oil

[Max]

Hi all,
I've read a lot of posts regarding LRL divices like mineoro
and others (dowsing kind) and I'm very sceptic that one of these
devices actually works.
I mean I know a dowser-man (seems like a navaho
shimano or something) hanging around some strange wood pieces that
(he said) he uses to find water and other things (and belive me, he can
-I see him using the dowsing "Wood"- really identifing a water plane
I know that exist and that is still undocumented in our areas) but
can't explain how he phisically do that. Don't know if he can "detect"
other things , like a gold ore.
I read about ionic chambers here and just want to explain what I know
of these devices do demistify some aspects.
There's nothing magic in a ion chamber. It's simply a sensor really close to
a geiger tube but with some differencies.
A tipical geiger tube is made of thin
aluminium with a central electrode (usually tungsten) with some low pressure gas
inside (usually argon but could be some mix of helium-neon-argon plus some
hi-density organic compound like ethanol), then polarized with say 600-800 volts
between outer electrode (tube) and central electrode. Some types have also one or
more "windows" to allow alpha particles (he-nuclei) to enter in the tube: windows
are usually made of thin silicates or plastic material. Normally a geiger tube
detect only gamma-rays (hi freq. em radiations like x-rays) and beta (accelerated
electrons) becouse haven't any window. In simple words it works like this:
when a particle enters the tube it can hit some atom of gas (argon) ---> the hit
produces a ionic pair (the ionized atom + an electron).
The hi voltage field makes the pair elements really accelerated
and a cascade effect (more ions and electrons) is then produced resulting in a current
flowing in the tube caused by the elements of the pair moving to electrodes,
thus recombining and then resaturating the tube with non-ionized gas.
It's a kind of cascade amplifier with a very fast recovery time (so counts can be
accurate also in presence of a huge number of radiations per second) with a
time-unit-counter. It's becouse all radiation units indicates the ammount of
radiations detected in the time unit.

A tipical ion chamber looks like the geiger tube described above BUT:
- usually dry air (normal pressure, 1 ATM) is used
- low voltage is required (usually under 100 volt, in some cases under 10 volts)
- there isn't any window
- the process here hasn't a cascade amplification so the little pair generation
and recombination cause currents that are really small (usually under 10^-12 amperes)
- a hi-impedance , very low bias and leakeage amplifier is needed to detect signals
- modern ion chambers all use chopper amplifiers (to avoid dc drifting/noise)
- EVERY KIND of ionizing RADIATION can produce pairs here
So, every ionizing source (sun light, uv-light, ac fields, natural radiation -rad gas mainly-,
cosmic rays, x-rays, ...but also your digital watch, your mechanical watch with radium activated
night markers, your mobile phone, your mp3 player, you favourite radio station etc. etc. etc. )
can produce pairs in the chamber if the signal is enough, and also a low humididy can perturbate the
pairs migration in huge variations.
Anyway, I repeat, EVERY KIND OF IONIZING RADIATION --> ionic chambers do not detect ions if they
aren't in ionizing radiation behaviour, I mean they must have a hi-speed (like alpha particles) to penetrate the
(thin) walls of the chamber. Actually no alpha particles can be detected with a normal ion chamber,
becouse of the absence of the thin silicate/plastic window : typical small chambers are fully metal
enclosed, and even if ions are highly accelerated they simply can't break the barrier as other things
can (like e.g. hi-energy photons).
So normal ionic chambers DO NOT detect ions from the outside environment but internal ion pairs generated
by some radiation (mostly x-ray, gamma-ray, uv and strong ac/rf signals).
The strange assert that a ionic chamber DETECT ION PAIRS (OR COLLISIONS) FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD is then
an scientific false, covered with good advertising champains.
The assert that ion chambers CAN DETECT GOLD IONS ONLY is completely false becouse of they works on
electric charges recombination and the electron charge value is the same for every chemical element
(in the real world).

So, if any of these strange things really works for sure it's not by external target IONIC DETECTION.

Best regards,
Max

[Chris2]

Hi Max,

good post! But I think most of the "Mineoro Fan Comunity" doesn’t understand your comments because they simply are not educated in how electronic and physics works. Ask around and you will see. I'm sure none of them has a university degree in physics or electronic engineering.
Conclusion is they become believers of what they don't understand in the first place.

Chris

[Crowbar]

Well done, MAX.

[Alexismex]

so good post Max thanks,
Alexis

[okantex]

here is a key to puzzle
second product of gold mining companyies is uranium ore.
today's gold is produced by electrolyzes and it is pure because of production process.
what about the gold of old times.are they pure?
or can be uranium inside of it's mixture.
if so,
yes mineoro detects ions but not gold.
uranium generally fonuds with gold and silver ores.
regards

[Max]

Originally Posted by Chris2

Hi Max,

good post! But I think most of the "Mineoro Fan Comunity" doesn’t understand your comments because they simply are not educated in how electronic and physics works. Ask around and you will see. I'm sure none of them has a university degree in physics or electronic engineering.
Conclusion is they become believers of what they don't understand in the first place.

Chris

Hi Chris,
I've appreciate your post making me focusing on the language I've used. Thanks.
I apologize for the too technically involved post above to anyone that doesn't know much
of physics and electronics - sometimes I write without taking into account that many haven't
the technical education to follow some posts. I'll take into account for future.
I agree that many people like the "Mineoro Fan Comunity" maybe follow the advertize out there
without a deeper understanding of what they actually buy. My post wasn't related only to the
Mineoro's units out there but to all kind of ion chambers claims related to long range ionic
detection.
I'll try to explain my point of view in more simple words for the "man of the street" buyer.
-the "man of the street" buyer guide-
Anyway, it's like when someone with enough money and little understanding of engineering buy an
hidrogen powered car (or a fuel cell one) thinking that it'll be completely safe for the Eart's
environment or that can't produce any little total warming increase. Well, only a tech oriented
mind could think that the fuel used it's not ready available in nature, but needs, to be extracted
from water, a huge ammount of electric energy and to be hi-pressurized (liquid !) other energy...
and so on. So the whole process hasn't , at now, any respect for the nature.
It's inefficient and not completely safe for the end user and the nature.
We produce most of our electric energy using nuclear or gas/oil/carbon burning - dirty tecnhologies.
In future maybe we'll have clean energy and at no costs, and such kind of fuel could became the right
choice,but now ONLY advertising can push ahead this technology.
One difference between remote ionic detection chambers and eco-cars is that the second example
works although it's not efficient and not safe (think about some wrong missile-test of the 60'
- Hidrogen forms explosives mixtures with oxigen and it's extremely dangerous to handle), but the
first doesn't/can't work in any case becouse ionic pairs must be inside the chamber to be revealed!
It's a little drawback !
So remote ionic detection really won't works in these commercial LRL units. This is a fact.
Any college student - with little physics background - can say. Try to ask around, to have some info
from your old science teacher - why not? - sending an email to a doctorate guy. They will answer what
I say: NO REMOTE IONIC DETECTION USING ION CHAMBERS.
I also was wondered that some LRL sell around - so I've discussed the topic with many friends with
physics and eng degree and no one say "maybe" this or "maybe" that --> all answer "impossible",
"doesn't make sense", "no way"...
I'm not saying that Mineoro units don't work (I never tested one) but JUST that the principle of
operation they say (remote ionic detection) is fake stuff and, last, only an adversiting strategy.
Some dubts make our life safer than "no dubts at all".
What I want to tell is DON'T belive in advertising. Just a bit of common sense can avoid an unuseful
thousand dollars expense - do you think that if someone have realized such kind of detector he/she
wan't to put them on the market ? and without a patent ? do you think that if the principle of
operation declared is fake (fact) these units work anyway (maybe using some mystical-new-age
detection process) ? if so, buy it ! No one can help you anymore.
Do you think that, if this technology works, any big manifacturer don't want to enter the business too ?
White's, Garrett, Minelab, Fisher etc etc don't want to produce that stuff becouse they are real big
industries with a "name" to defend : no big company want to make a wallmart-like detector of treasures.
They aren't worried of patents of others here (there are no patents at all!) but of the consequences of such a
production: they already sell huge numbers of standard metal detectors in the world and don't want to
lose their fame of good manifactures - in any case any m.d. produced really works and results are proved.
No big companies, yeah, but small ones, maybe in some exotic place, would make it for you!
Just common sense rules. Yeah. But would you like to buy a car that the manifacture claims "can fly",
for only $1000000 cash without a little test drive or warranty?

It's up to you.

-end of the "man of the street" buyer guide-

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by okantex

here is a key to puzzle
second product of gold mining companyies is uranium ore.
today's gold is produced by electrolyzes and it is pure because of production process.
what about the gold of old times.are they pure?
or can be uranium inside of it's mixture.
if so,
yes mineoro detects ions but not gold.
uranium generally fonuds with gold and silver ores.
regards

Hi Okantex,
"what about the gold of old times.are they pure?
or can be uranium inside of it's mixture."

I'm not a geo-degree but try to answer with what I know.

BTW This post must be technical oriented. (no simple words to talk about complex things! I'll try to make
it easier as I can)
I have realized that Mineoro claims its units "can find gold", not "gold of old times" but anyway let's
talk about old-gold.
Well, I know that old time gold has, generally speaking, a lot of impurities inside the matrix. Yes, it's
true. That's becouse of the old extraction methods and artifacts manifacturing in the past. Gold is a perfect
recyclable element (like aluminium) and may be re-fused indefinitely. So contamination could appear also
outside the "mine/ore" way - just by fusion, tools and manifacturing e.g. , for coins, the coiniage process.
But talk about uranium or other radioactive materials (mainly radium, thorium) : yes they can be present in
the ore/mine. It happens sometimes like in some Syberian mines or in the US also where gold and radioactive
materials are often in the same ore (some old Colorado mines are examples). It's rare instead in Egiptian
ancient gold (as I know) becouse of the native nature of the gold ore inclused in quartz crystals.
Also it's not so frequent in south-africa and australian gold mines. Don't know in South and Central America.

Anyway, it's possible that gold ore can be contamained by radioactive elements. So ancient gold could be for
sure.

All depend on how much is contamination in the mass unit and what type of elements and intensity of ionizing
radiations are developed. There are a number of variables involved like the percentage of elements, isothopes,
decading factors etc so a unique model of radiating behaviour is impossible to make before excavation and
analisis.

Another issue is that Mineoro can't detect airborn ions (or any other ion outside the so called "ion chamber").

Then why trying to find gold using radiations ?
The total ammount of radiation in an ancient gold artifact or bar could be thousand times lower than radon gas
trapped in the ground around the object or than the minerals that are in the ground matrix
- making impossible to reveal the target emission from the background radiations emission.

Another issue, is "why use a ion chamber instead of a normal geiger counter" ? I mean...if one would find some
radiations out there the geiger tube will overcome any ion chamber in such a task. Modern geiger counter units
are cheapy (say 200$) an hi-reliable e.g. 100 or more times respect to any small ion chamber, and they identify
ONLY wanted radiations (beta, gamma, alpha) - no radio stations etc.

Anyway, no gamma-rays, no alpha particles, no beta-rays can be related to a specific kind of primary element
(contamained gold or other metal) , just becouse they are always the same for every source of them.
Decading elements (like cesium isothopes) can be identified only using a mass-spectrometer in a vacuum environment
or other kinds of heavy and non-portable technologies. So any radioactive-to-gold interaction is simply undetectable
in a search field environment.

So it's impossible, this way, to make any specific element (gold) detection or discrimination.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi all,
about metals and metallurgy in the ancient world I remember I have some
spare references to signal here.
Maybe someone find these useful.
(from my library volume 2 of "A History of Technology",
Clarendon Press, Oxford 1956):

about mining in the ancient world:
Agricola Georgius, "De re metallica libri XII", Froben , Basilea, 1556
English Translation by H.C. Hoover and Lou H.Hoover, Mining Magazine , London, 1912
Bailey, K.C. , "The Elder Pliny's Chapters on Chemical Subjectss" , Arnold, London, 1929
and the good
Gowland, W. "The metals in the Antiquity", Brill, Leida, 1950

about gold and precious metals artworking in the ancient world:
Casson S. ,"The Technique of Greek Coin Dies", International Numismatic Congress, London 1936
Hili, G.F., "Ancient Methods of Coining", Numism, Chron V series
Biringuccio, Vanoccio, "De la Pirotechnia voll. VIII", Venetia 1540.
English translation by C.S. Smith and Martha T Gnudi - American Institute of Mining and
Metallurgy, New York, 1943

Also I know that British Museum has a lot of pubblications out there on this
topic related to items contamination by impurities.
----

Best regards,
Max

[Leto]

Hi Max,
Liked your last post...all the classics... and I thougt I'm the only one here reading 450 years old books.

Below mercury being extracted from cinnabar ore in my town 500 years ago.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Leto

Hi Max,
Liked your last post...all the classics... and I thougt I'm the only one here reading 450 years old books.

Below mercury being extracted from cinnabar ore in my town 500 years ago.

Hi Leto,
you are not the only I think . I know that many THs (the full-time ones) read actually from the Archive of the Indies of Sevilla...I mean the ones that try to find ships and related in the Florida-Bahamas areas and Carribeans in general.
My father has a lot of historical books and I read some parts from time to time. I have a number too. It's interesting how a lot of common life objects that we use everyday have ancestors in the ancient world. It's amazing to read how these ancient populations found solutions for the real life we still use -just industrial revolution makes them mass-products.

BTW nice to hear from you that someone still appreciate this kind of readings.

Best regards,
Max

[Rudy]

Hi Max,

I too have posted articles on the so called ionic and electrostatic field detection principles supposedly used on LRLs. They are here somewhere.

[Dell Winders]

So any radioactive-to-gold interaction is simply undetectable
in a search field environment.
]

During my many years of field experience searching for Gold, I don't find this to be true. Perhaps text book logic needs to be revised.

In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits before GPS was available, the instrumentation we used would detect and record Gold deposits but this would only bring us in the proximity of the Gold for a ground search.

To locate the Gold deposit(s) we would bury 25 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in 2-3 locations within the general proximity of the aerial location, then wait 3-4 weeks. The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold, and metered the same as Gold with our instruments.

When we returned to the aera after an alloted time, we would detect the known locations of the Uranium ore, as well as the unknown location of the Gold deposit, and by calculating the distances between the known targets, and the unknown target we could isolate and pinpoint the location of the Gold deposit.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

[Max]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

Hi Dell,
I know that some trace-elements are used to mark water flows underground or to detect the
speed e.g. of the oil flow in a pipe and mining prospects also : yes is true.
I mean...one can use also other stuff like geo-seismic waves to find a gas/oil reservoir
or an ore gold deposit underground using different propagation times or many other
technologies to do the same thing.
Anyway, using radioactive tracing it's not a simple thing to do and (in any case) :
requires methodic sampling and nuclear lab analysis to determine if any gold-isothope
was generated by radiations interaction in field.
The method you explained seems good in the non-GPS era to mark inland positions to be
detected using geiger counters mounted e.g. on a plane flying at low altitude or
hand-held also expecially for gamma-ray marking...used to mark spots and then making
some triangle or other pattern to identify a specific position inside the field
(like the one that mobile phone cells calculate to localize the transmitter on the base of
the strenght of the signal received).
Well, the problem is :
"The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold,
and metered the same as Gold with our instruments."
Uhm

Sometimes, big mining companies use these technologies but often in outsourcing , so
they pay a specialized lab for this kind of analysis on samples.
Limiting to observe secondary radiations, assuming one can shut down correctly the primary
source (in this case the uranium ore), can't say if it's a gold deposit out there or
another different one before excavation, sampling, analysis- radiations are always the same
(alpha beta, gamma), only intensity and types detected could vary, but in a non predictable way.
No airborn isothope could be detected here becouse they are trapped in the ground matrix.
It's not like a nuclear explosion where stuff fly around and then a plane or other vehicle (e.g.
an equipped tank) can detect airborn particles.
So-called well-analysis must then take place, producing sampling of the suspect ore.
Another issue here is that geologycal hypothesis play a major role - you put your uranium
ore around a "promising" place, but what about distances ? accurancy require small distancies
in positioning your sources (uranium ore).
If this is the case you are right.

Then let's make some questions.
Obviusly, if one start to dig holes, put uranium-ore inside, then use complex radiation
marking techniques by planes , take samples and elaborate the results ...
well, he/she's not an hobbist or not ?
If we are talking about remote sensing using hand-held detectors, the scenario is
quite different. Or not ?
I can't see any information about digging holes around and putting some pounds of uranium (hey!)
and then doing wells and sampling using a rotative machinery , to send to a nuclear lab...etc
in the Mineoro website or in other LRL user manual that I see untill now.
Do you know any user manual that talks about this activities ? If, so please let me know.

So, to be clear, when I say "any radioactive-to-gold interaction is simply undetectable
in a search field environment" I refer to our world (the hobbists/THs world) with hand-held unit,
I mean using such a detector (so called ion chambered ones or whatever LRL) and simply walking
with the detector in your hand -just following the beep-beep.

Maybe, if lucky, one can find a road-runner this way.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi all,
I'm posting some data about gold chemistry to have just other confirms that
gold doesn't radiate anything (in normal conditions):

natural gold is all


Isotope Atomic mass (ma/u) Natural abundance (atom %)

197Au 196.966543 (4) 100

other (transition) isotopes are:

Isotope Mass Half-life Mode of decay

194Au 193.96534 1.64d EC to 194Pt

195Au 194.965017 186.12d EC to 195Pt

196Au 196.966551 6.18 d EC to 196Pt; β- to 196Hg

198Au 197.968225 2.694d β- to 198Hg

199Au 198.968748 3.14d β- to 199Hg

but these (transition) are originating from strong nuclear interactions (e.g. nuclei bombing in a reactor or in a particle accelerator).

For non-educated ones, these isotopes above e.g. 199Au tend to transform in other (finally stable) elements (transition) with radiation emissions (in this case an atom of 199Au become an atom of 199Hg -mercury- with a single beta-emission -an accelerated electron-).
Half-time is the time needed for a half mass to transform (e.g. Au199 half-life is 3.14 d --> in 3.14days half of it become mercury).

Now, in a free radiation environent (e.g. normal search field) an ancient gold artifact or bar must be 100% isotope Au197 - stable and not radiating anything.


Best regards,
Max

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits before GPS was available, the instrumentation we used would detect and record Gold deposits but this would only bring us in the proximity of the Gold for a ground search.

I suppose since you have a vested interest in making and selling these gizmo's...you can make this C.R.A.P up

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

During my many years of field experience searching for Gold, I don't find this to be true. Perhaps text book logic needs to be revised.

Revisions would be forthcoming if the evidence to the contrary was fully documented and the experiment could be repeated by others under controlled conditions and produced the same results.

In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits before GPS was available, the instrumentation we used would detect and record Gold deposits but this would only bring us in the proximity of the Gold for a ground search.

What specifically was the instrumentation used?

To locate the Gold deposit(s) we would bury 25 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in 2-3 locations within the general proximity of the aerial location, then wait 3-4 weeks. The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold, and metered the same as Gold with our instruments.

Which are the (presumably measurable) "characteristics" being referred to?

When we returned to the aera after an alloted time, we would detect the known locations of the Uranium ore, as well as the unknown location of the Gold deposit, and by calculating the distances between the known targets, and the unknown target we could isolate and pinpoint the location of the Gold deposit.

What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?

Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?

If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by okantex

here is a key to puzzle
second product of gold mining companyies is uranium ore.
today's gold is produced by electrolyzes and it is pure because of production process.
what about the gold of old times.are they pure?
or can be uranium inside of it's mixture.
if so,
yes mineoro detects ions but not gold.
uranium generally fonuds with gold and silver ores.
regards

Okantex, your suggestion appears plausible, but it does not explain the claim that one can bury "new" jewelry grade gold and after a few weeks of being underground it can be detected. Clearly gold is not a Uranium magnet, so the buried jewelry is not going to be detectable by this method.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Okantex, your suggestion appears plausible, but it does not explain the claim that one can bury "new" jewelry grade gold and after a few weeks of being underground it can be detected. Clearly gold is not a Uranium magnet, so the buried jewelry is not going to be detectable by this method.

Hi Rudy,
I agree with yuor posts. I think that these methods (buring uranium or other stuff there) for the purpose of finding gold are simple science-fiction.
I have no dubt these kind of stuff has nothing to do with TH but simply with
mining and other geologycal surveys.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

"What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?
Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?
If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?
"
yes, right !

Hypothesis:

I think he was talking about some plane-equipped with e.g. a sensible geiger counter and a
gamma-ray sensor...like the ones used in colorado in the 50's to find radioactive ores.
The kind of stuff used in geo surveys to find radioactive ore deposits,
but in this case the implicit reference was to a secondary radiation spot ( I think ).
If the above secondary radiation was revealed then a kind of "pinpointing" was possible
because fixed primary sources positions were known.
Unfortunately, this method don't work with gold items because :
- the propagation path (of radiations) between sources and target is not so sure to happen
- also if propagation of radiations occours no secondary radiation could be revealed in this case
(not from a plane or an hand-held instrument)
- also if propagation of trace elements occours and then revealed there is no way to detect gold
because this only evidence that there is a path (e.g. a water flow underground) but not that there
is anything else --> this is used to mark e.g. oil flows in gas/oil surveys.
One has to dig...so this is not remote sensing, detecting or discriminating but simply
a sampling for ores...wow ! Never see one sampling for treasures with a well-borer?

(I see one on TV - in Oak Island - Canada - but they know that there is a treasure below their
feet! and it works ! they find small pieces of gold in the bore rod ! )

So the conclusion is: can't use radioactivity to find gold items.

If Mineoro's or other LRL units work then is not by radioactivity (and not by ions - so whatever now?).

Best regards,
Max

[okantex]

max
what do you think about this page.

http://personal.picusnet.com/one/polaroid.htm

what caused that light in picture.

[Carl-NC]

The streaks are caused by old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera. This is not uncommon with Polaroids, but when it happens to a treasure hunter, they seem to believe it's caused by hidden treasure. Everyone else says, "Damn camera!"

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

The streaks are caused by old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera. This is not uncommon with Polaroids, but when it happens to a treasure hunter, they seem to believe it's caused by hidden treasure. Everyone else says, "Damn camera!"

- CarlToday 08:23 AM

You try to give the illusion all Treasure hunters think alike. Sorry Carl, one size does not fit all.

Are you jealous, prejudice, or just your egotistical superiority complex shining through? Dell

[Max]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

The streaks are caused by old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera. This is not uncommon with Polaroids, but when it happens to a treasure hunter, they seem to believe it's caused by hidden treasure. Everyone else says, "Damn camera!"

- Carl

Hi Carl,
I found this site very interesting. Thanks a lot.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by okantex

max
what do you think about this page.

http://personal.picusnet.com/one/polaroid.htm

what caused that light in picture.

Hi Okantex,
I can't say what caused the light in the pictures -well, not watching them on a pc monitor-
but can agree with Carl on the hypothesis that
"old film and/or uneven roller pressure in the camera" can cause such a behaviour.

Obviosly, if the photo was not altered/manipulated intentionally. It's so simple that any
teenager can do photoretouch on the fly using say adobe photoshop.

Anyway, I'll assume here the photo is authentic and not manipulated.

As you already may know Polaroid camera film is a "kind of magic", I mean, there is a lot
of stuff on that paper because it have to react not only to light when one shoot the button
but also to a number of chemical reactions that just in few seconds develop the photo on
the same substrate. Here anything strange could happen.

From the website you posted I recall the last part of the "article" :

"Another treasure illusion is tiny yellow spots on the picture.
The engineers at Polaroid told me that this is caused by small particles of dust
or dirt on the rollers that squeeze the film, as it comes out of the camera.
So if you clean the rollers well, than this affect disappears from the photos."

So it seems to be related to the mechanical and chemical aspects of the device and the paper
(in this case was SX 70).

I experienced many of this strange optical effects with my old 35mm reflex camera also.
One time I've used a B/w russian made film (I'll never use again), my brother buy for cheap,
and obtained so strange white spots that I can't belive at first - but some days after I
discovered that the film was expired 7 years before use!

I'm skeptic on that topic.

It'll be fashinating if a kind of energy will radiate from gold or treasures...wow
its aura (kirlian stuff) or its "energy" ! If one loves new-age stuff ...just don't put
your head under aluminium foil to prevent aliens remote sensing, that's what I say.
People become aggressive and call police if one walk on the street with such a cover.
Returning serious: gold doesn't radiate anything in normal state energy.
No gamma-rays, no x-rays, no rf just...nothing.
Another issue is then the one related to IR detection. I've read a lot of posts regarding
IR detection using "leningrad 7" or something. Using an IR detector to find gold ???

From when gold radiate IR ??? ::confused::

I know that the gold spectrum contains lines that correspond to specific frequencies but
this gold must be energized to "jump" in a hi-energy state, then radiate photons in the
decay phase(s). This is explained by the Shroedinger (write it right?) equation.

We here are not talking about demining a minefield where "recent" mines lyes few inches underground,
and are visible by a "cold-camera" but of gold items buried at least some feets underground where
ground thermic level sorrounds everything inside and "cold-camera" S/N ratio degrade is absolute.
So what about these detectors ??? have they a transmitter stage to excite gold atoms ???
If so at what frequency it works ??? With how much power ??? What's normal attenuation in
the ground ??? can a suitable S/N ratio be developed in the receiver ??? etc etc etc
but also
why use a "leningrad 7" if one can use an IR camera instead or a photomultiplier tube ???
Leningrad 7, zinc sulphide, IR leds...what's that stuff for???
Wanna see the gamma-rays: let's buy some serious stuff e.g. military surplus tubes - don't
mess with poor-man and kitchen electronics - this is my point of view.
The problem is...exciting a gold mass buried say 10 or 100 feet in the ground is not so easy task
and requires a lot of power - the kind of power one can't put in an hand-held star-trek-like pistol.
Attenuation is too high at those frequencies and one must send Megawatt bursts (hey!) to penetrate
in depth. Maybe NASA has one of this cannons - do you remember the StarWars project? - but I dubt
any THs can make one in his home garage.

So i think that, with actual THs technology available, also IR detection fails to detect buried gold or anything else underground.

So if Mineoro's or other LRL unit work it's not by InfraRed (and not by radioactivity and not by ions).

Best regards (and sorry for the very long post),
Max

[michael]

Hi all, Thank you for your good points, especially Max, you're right about ion chambers.
like what happens in Atomic Absorption Detection for determining the elements in different materials. and it's obvious what is going in the claimed "ion chamber" in mineoro devices is not comparable to these technologies and.....
but one thing is brought up here: I want to ask from knowledgeable men about electronic ; Max, Rudy,....
Do you believe that old buried gold objects( not only gold, any kind of metal)
behave completely different than fresh ones? do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device? Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences? what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem, but experiences if not be standout, are not less important.
It's remarkable that I'm not going to advocate for any special producer or device, as I'm really one independent user.
but just decide at least take the discussion to a positive point to get a result or propound a subject to be observed much more.