Expedition Update

[hung]

By the way, what Rudy points out although no exactly 'gravitons' , is close to describe one aspect of the phenomena.
Amazing as a newbie like him pointed this out in the right direction unlike many here who through tons of posts still seem to be 'lost in space'...

[Jim]

Originally Posted by hung

He,he,he.. Another 'preciousness' from you..
If in January we suceed to recover the gold detected and I show pictures here will you still be raising this same 'motto'?

Dowsers Code. Detected gold, but didn't dig it up. :::rolls eyes:::

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Naw, I just wanted to up the ante on the technobabble used to
describe how these LRLs are supposed to work.

Seems to be working :::snickers:::

[hung]

Originally Posted by Jim

Dowsers Code. Detected gold, but didn't dig it up. :::rolls eyes:::

Well... Actually you don't have to rely on me. Read bomberman's post in the other forum 'RF Type like DCHs' and all the findings section at Mineoro's website.
We are not dowsers.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

He,he,he.. Another 'preciousness' from you..
If in January we suceed to recover the gold detected and I show pictures here will you still be raising this same 'motto'?

If any gold is recovered it will be because you did some proper research on this location, and determined with a high probablility that treasure has been secreted there. It will have nothing to do with the pseudoscientific nonsense of detecting gold ions from longtime buried gold.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

By the way, what Rudy points out although no exactly 'gravitons' , is close to describe one aspect of the phenomena.
Amazing as a newbie like him pointed this out in the right direction unlike many here who through tons of posts still seem to be 'lost in space'...

Perhaps it was you that posted the Examiner gobbledygook on their website as a plausible explanation of it's operation.
Rudy's post was being sarcastic. Also known as "taking the ****".
Don't believe everything you read, especially from a "newbie".

[hung]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

If any gold is recovered it will be because you did some proper research on this location, and determined with a high probablility that treasure has been secreted there. It will have nothing to do with the pseudoscientific nonsense of detecting gold ions from longtime buried gold.

I strongly refute the misleading argument you just posted. Don't try to mislead the readers here with such incorrect information.
WE SEARCHED THE WHOLE AREA WITH THE DETECTORS UNTIL WE FOUND THIS SITE EXCLUSIVELY USING THE MINEORO IONIC DETECTORS. THE RANGERTELL DEVICE ONLY GAVE THE DIRECTION TO FOLLOW.
AFTER WE HAVE ABORTED THE OPERATION AS ALREADY EXPLAINED IS THAT WE HAD ACESS TO DOCUMENTS WHICH SUGGESTED EVENTS RELATED IN THE REGION AND THUS POSSIBLY EXPLAINING WHAT WE HAVE DETECTED.

AGAIN: THE SITE WAS DISCOVERED EXCLUSIVELY USING THE DETECTORS. WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT LIES INSIDE THE CAVE. BUT I'M POSITIVE THERE'S GOLD FOR MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE DEVICES AND ALSO BECAUSE THE DEVICES ARE PROGRAMED TO DETECT SUCH.

DON'T TWIST THE FACTS!:mad:

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

I strongly refute the misleading argument you just posted. Don't try to mislead the readers here with such incorrect information.
WE SEARCHED THE WHOLE AREA WITH THE DETECTORS UNTIL WE FOUND THIS SITE EXCLUSIVELY USING THE MINEORO IONIC DETECTORS. THE RANGERTELL DEVICE ONLY GAVE THE DIRECTION TO FOLLOW.
AFTER WE HAVE ABORTED THE OPERATION AS ALREADY EXPLAINED IS THAT WE HAD ACESS TO DOCUMENTS WHICH SUGGESTED EVENTS RELATED IN THE REGION AND THUS POSSIBLY EXPLAINING WHAT WE HAVE DETECTED.

AGAIN: THE SITE WAS DISCOVERED EXCLUSIVELY USING THE DETECTORS. WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT LIES INSIDE THE CAVE. BUT I'M POSITIVE THERE'S GOLD FOR MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE DEVICES AND ALSO BECAUSE THE DEVICES ARE PROGRAMED TO DETECT SUCH.

DON'T TWIST THE FACTS!:mad:

When you want to test the depth of a stream, don't use both feet.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by hung

By the way, what Rudy points out although no exactly 'gravitons' , is close to describe one aspect of the phenomena.
Amazing as a newbie like him pointed this out in the right direction unlike many here who through tons of posts still seem to be 'lost in space'...

I may be a newbie on this forum, but not a newbie in detecting or in the sciences I assure you. Got several US Patent plaques haging on my den
wall and a pretty fair understanding of physics and electronics.

I chose gravitons purely because although theoretically possible, their existence remains elusive at best. And to impute that a hand held device with a cheap calculator strapped on top of it, is capable of detecting a gravitational disturbance from a local change in mass at such distances is .... well, absurd.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Rudy

And to impute that a hand held device with a cheap calculator strapped on top of it, is capable of detecting a gravitational disturbance from a local change in mass at such distances is .... well, absurd.

Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd... is generally lost on those who believe in the absurd.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by hung

About the examiner, I see it's a simple circuit. But the one I saw there looks completely different from the picture above and also I was told the new model works on diodes.
Anyway if it's not a dowsing rod it acts like one. I saw it working . It is quick on pointing the gold's direction and resembles a compass needle. And we all know those kind of devices have a tremendous range. Don't know about how precise they are. In my opinion it's a good tool to point a direction to start.

Hung, of all the LRLs being sold today -- I would even argue of all the LRLs EVER sold -- the RangerTell Examiner is the most blatantly fraudulent. To some degree, I empathize with people who get fooled by dowsing devices, because the ideomotor response is very compelling. But to believe that a calculator taped to a dowsing rod will magically generate a signal, based on a key-entry, that will detect gold a mile away... well, you either have to be very, very gullible, or very stupid.

And, no, a random combination of circuit devices that is different from an earlier random combination of circuit devices, that didn't do anything in the first place, will not change the results. The Examiner is a joke, produced by a total nutcase.

- Carl

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

AGAIN: THE SITE WAS DISCOVERED EXCLUSIVELY USING THE DETECTORS. WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT LIES INSIDE THE CAVE. BUT I'M POSITIVE THERE'S GOLD FOR MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE DEVICES AND ALSO BECAUSE THE DEVICES ARE PROGRAMED TO DETECT SUCH. :mad:

Are you telling me that you did absolutely no research on this area? You simply wandered around the rain forest following random beeps until you tricked yourself into believing they were coming from a particular location.

Originally Posted by hung

We are not dowsers.

You didn't use the Examiner after all then?
This is an electronic dowsing device. The whole basis for your "discovery" is centered on beeps from a device that claims to detect something that doesn't exist (ions emitted from long time buried gold) and an electronic calculator taped to the top of a dowsing rod.
You are clearly neither an engineer nor a scientist, otherwise you would understand the stupidity of your quest. You are promoting pseudo-scientific nonsense on this forum, which is harmful to the less technical members here, especially if they spend hard-earned money to buy these useless devices.
Conventional metal detectors work every time they are turned on, regardless of who is using them. Ionic detection only "appears to work" when used by a "believer". Therefore it is obvious there is a physchological element at work here.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Rudy

I may be a newbie on this forum, but not a newbie in detecting or in the sciences I assure you. Got several US Patent plaques haging on my den
wall and a pretty fair understanding of physics and electronics.

I chose gravitons purely because although theoretically possible, their existence remains elusive at best. And to impute that a hand held device with a cheap calculator strapped on top of it, is capable of detecting a gravitational disturbance from a local change in mass at such distances is .... well, absurd.

Hi Rudy,

Your contribution is most welcome!
I wasn't certain when you posted your graviton theory, whether it was serious or not. We've had some pretty crazy ideas put forward in the past. You may need to turn down the sarcasm level a bit, as sometimes other members can misinterpret the technobabble as fact. I know, as this happened to me.

As Carl correctly points out, subtle sarcasm is often lost on these people. The majority here do not have a good grasp of English, and many have either limited knowledge of electronics or are in the process of learning. All are welcome here - even those who believe in the absurd.

But - if anyone posts nonsense (especially if it's designed to con innocent people) - don't expect any mercy.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Are you telling me that you did absolutely no research on this area? You simply wandered around the rain forest following random beeps until you tricked yourself into believing they were coming from a particular location.

You didn't use the Examiner after all then?
This is an electronic dowsing device. The whole basis for your "discovery" is centered on beeps from a device that claims to detect something that doesn't exist (ions emitted from long time buried gold) and an electronic calculator taped to the top of a dowsing rod.
You are clearly neither an engineer nor a scientist, otherwise you would understand the stupidity of your quest. You are promoting pseudo-scientific nonsense on this forum, which is harmful to the less technical members here, especially if they spend hard-earned money to buy these useless devices.
Conventional metal detectors work every time they are turned on, regardless of who is using them. Ionic detection only "appears to work" when used by a "believer". Therefore it is obvious there is a physchological element at work here.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

I have said it before, and I will say it again. This guy is somehow affiliated with Mineoro or the LRL industry. That is the only way they could come up with the most unbelievable BS about this fraudulent C.R.A.P.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Hung, of all the LRLs being sold today -- I would even argue of all the LRLs EVER sold -- the RangerTell Examiner is the most blatantly fraudulent. To some degree, I empathize with people who get fooled by dowsing devices, because the ideomotor response is very compelling. But to believe that a calculator taped to a dowsing rod will magically generate a signal, based on a key-entry, that will detect gold a mile away... well, you either have to be very, very gullible, or very stupid.

And, no, a random combination of circuit devices that is different from an earlier random combination of circuit devices, that didn't do anything in the first place, will not change the results. The Examiner is a joke, produced by a total nutcase.

- Carl

Carl, I agree with you. At least on this one. Although the Mineoros are all electronic devices and I stand by them, the rangertell device lacks electronics to be considered such. That’s why I think it’s some kind of dowsing rod. But, is the calculator a major factor on it? I don’t know. It could be. What he did was to enter some numbers on the calculator and turn the knob a little. The antenna pointed to one direction. Then he turned the knob to a higher value I think and the antenna swung to another direction. He then said this one was worth to follow. After some time walking, the detectors started to beep. Coincidence? I would not think so. I did not investigate the rangertell closely as we did not have time for this. Maybe next time.
A dowsing rod supposedly utilizes the body’s frequency, energy, mind, etc. Some believe them. Some don’t. This debate apparently will never end.

Anyway, I don’t want to discuss about rangertell and start a debate about this here as I opened up this thread to tell my experiences on this expedition. If someone wishes to discuss this dowsing subject I plitely invite them to open another thread.

Qiaozhi : The region we explored is a big one with several farms. Actually this is one of the three locations we decided to explore this next year. One of the researchers has heard stories about the location. We had no previous research in the area. All of this happened exclusively with the detectors. The rangertell gave a direction and we followed it. We got lucky.

Conventional MD work every time they are turned on. So do the Mineoro ionic detectors. I don't see the point here..
Regular MDs also detect aluminum pulltabs and all sort of trash also. Besides they have a terrible depth range. Well afterall they are just that... Conventional metal detectors.

Also I was relating what Rudy said to the Mineoros and not to the examiner.
But I notice that he unconsciously made good points.

[Leto]

Hung you are amazing.....
.... so many members participating, new members registering, countless posts,... about NOTHING?!?

Oh yes Portuguese death traps huge savage beetles underwater caves shifting the course of the river and lots of suspected gold with special C.R.A.P. devices .

You should make a movie.

P.S. For naives: I'm sarcastic here.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by hung

<SNIP>
Conventional MD work every time they are turned on. So do the Mineoro ionic detectors. I don't see the point here..
Regular MDs also detect aluminum pulltabs and all sort of trash also. Besides they have a terrible depth range. Well afterall they are just that... Conventional metal detectors.

Also I was relating what Rudy said to the Mineoros and not to the examiner.
But I notice that he unconsciously made good points.

Ohh boy, is this fun.

Given than an ion is really an atom that is missing one or more electrons from the outer shell, there are a few questions that ought to be answered.

What natual phenomena causes a body of gold to have a significant number of its atoms to spontaneously ionize and at the same time be expelled from the main body, to land on one of these LRL widgets so it can be detected?

No known natural mechanisms exist.

If it is not the ions themselves that are being detected (since they are not being created by any natural phenomena), then what is being detected that presumably is coming from the body of gold?

Not many choices here.

Obviously, in order for whatever it is to get from the source (the gold?) to the destination (the LRL), over the claimed vast distances and through rocks and other solid objects, it must have to be some sort of electromagnetic radiation and not atomic particles (ions).

Ions would not be able to make the travel as they would be quickly scattered by collisions with other atoms and would quickly lose their momentum and ... stop. Even if they were somehow created in a manner that defies the known physical laws.

We must quickly conclude that ionic detection is not a viable explanation. Ions are not being spontaneously created at any significant rate and even if they were, they would not be able to travel over the claimed distance.

So, we have to go back to electromagnetic radiation of some kind as the only possible path to explain how an LRL could detect gold. There is the rub.

A metal detector expends a lot of energy (from its batteries) to inject an electromagnetic field into the ground matrix in the hope of exciting eddy currents in a conductive target. The eddy currents produce a counter electromagnetic field of their own which is what the detector detects.

Alas, as Hung pointed out, in spite of all that energy expenditure, the detection depth is limited to a few inches at best.

So, if the gold was emitting an electomagnetic field that is detectable over vast distances, it would have to have an energy source considerably more powerful than what our metal detectors produce. Where is that energy coming from? How is the gold generating the field (after all, it doesn't have any electronic components to do it with)? Why doesn't the gold melt from the eddy currents it is generating in the process of creating this field?

In short, there is no plausible explanation for how the gold can generate a signal of any kind that could be detected at any distance, and there is no plausible explanation of how an LRL could detect a signal that is not there.

[Seden]

Rudy,

Glad to see you're an MXT owner like me as that's the best VLF I've owned and I owned quite a few.
There is an infinate amount of power in the ground via Telluric Currents or possibly Millimeter Wave radiation at which gold radiates at about 249GHZ. But is this what's powering LRL's or dowsing rods? Beats the heck out of me Leutinant. I'm just letting you know these are a couple known sources of naturally occuring energy.

Now back to the MXT, have you tried the 14" or 18"DD coils that Kellyco sells? I would like to nugget hunt and would be curious to how deep you could go with one of these.

Randy

[hung]

Rudy,

If you aproach the 'ionic' subject from a limited perspective, you will get a limited conclusion as of certain.

Anyway, your inferences are way off topic of the original thread. I kindly ask you and Carl to move these subjects to another topic or thread in which those subjects can be discussed leaving the original topic intact.
Thanks in advance.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

I kindly ask you and Carl to move these subjects to another topic or thread in which those subjects can be discussed leaving the original topic intact.
Thanks in advance.

Why?
Everything said so far is relevant to your expedition update. Or do you think our criticsim of your choice of detecting method will undermine the Mineoro marketing message?

[goldfvr]

Originally Posted by Seden

Rudy,

Glad to see you're an MXT owner like me as that's the best VLF I've owned and I owned quite a few.
There is an infinate amount of power in the ground via Telluric Currents or possibly Millimeter Wave radiation at which gold radiates at about 249GHZ. But is this what's powering LRL's or dowsing rods? Beats the heck out of me Leutinant. I'm just letting you know these are a couple known sources of naturally occuring energy.

Now back to the MXT, have you tried the 14" or 18"DD coils that Kellyco sells? I would like to nugget hunt and would be curious to how deep you could go with one of these.

Randy

Now this is really off topic... sorry Hung... but Randy I own an MXT detector as well and it is by far the best all-around detector I have owned...

But if you are looking for a pure VLF nugget shooter than you have better options like White's gold master...

Also have a Minelab 3500 and that is for sure the king of nugget shooters.. for now anyways

[Rudy]

Hung,

Sorry, but you are the one that brought up ionic detection in a previous post. I was just describing how such a concept is physically impossible based on the properties of an ion (of gold in this case). I would gladly listen to your rebuttal, based on a "less limited perspective" -- as long as it is factual.

Randy,

Telluric currents flow all over the earth upper crust. They are induced by solar winds interacting with the ionosphere, plus some man made leakage currents. However, they are extremely low frequency in nature, ranging from 0.001 to 5 Hz. As such, the small puny antennas mounted on the typical LRL would not be able to detect them because of the huge mismatch between the Telluric wavelength and the LRL receiving antenna. Anyway, it wouldn't explain how the gold itself would somehow modify the Telluric currents to produce an identifiable signature different from the surrounding earth mass.

With regards to millimeter wave radiation, I don't quite get what you are saying. Why / how does gold at near room temperature radiate in the millimeter wave region?

PS: I don't use K'Cos coils. Did have a 1400DD, but it was too heavy and sold it.

[ivconic]

:confused:
"ideomotor response"
This is probably shortest combination of terms for naming so known and present
phenomena in this matter.I am huge sceptic in those things,but yet i meet a lot
of people arround having strong beliefs in LRL&dowsing generally.
I was trying so many times to explain this phenomena,first to my self than to
others. Yet,without success! Odds,rods,tensors and simillar should play role of
simple "antenna",while human body should be "receiver",in that case. Ideomotor
responding than,and man,holding some LRL tool in his hands,unknowingly by subtle
muscle movements,provoke that LRL tool to "do the job".
I used to call this phenomena "skills" so far.From now i have better name for it-
"ideomoteor response".
If this theory of mine is true,than it is maybe possible that some dowsers are
capable of finding items.
Only this way, Examiner can "do the job",no other way! Therefore any other passive
tool could done same job as Examiner,that day.All of this i am JUST PRESUMING NOT
CLAIMING.I am just trying to make some sence from all of this.....
But this theory covers only "passive" tools like odds and rods. What about electronic
devices like mineoro?
Mineoro is non-working device, still, in my hands...