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#26
10-20-2006, 01:57 PM
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http://www.mineoro.com/treasure/explanations.htm#a10
Although Esteban is an expert in Mineoro detectors he lacks essential information which Mineoro off course does not provide. The ionic chamber, altough important, is not the essential factor which makes the detectors work. There's much more than that. The pictures above are nice and provide an educational insight regarding the chamber, although the one shown above lacks some components found in the FG series such as infra red sensor and some more things. 
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#27
10-20-2006, 04:24 PM
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From Mineoro's page:
The ionic/electrostatic chamber consists of the external "antenna" in the form of a black tube, plus an elliptical sensor inserted in the plate of the boardcircuit. This sensor in elliptical shape represents an ionic/electrostatic field reflector, similar to the reflectors used in the antique tv aerials, which had deflectors and reflectors to better concentrate the signal received from VHF. The idea of that ionic/electrostatic reflector was originated in those reflectors. This sensor reflects and concentrates like a lens part of the energy that escapes and it is not detected by the "antenna" inside the black tube. This ionic/electrostatic energy is reutilized by the "antenna" increasing the detection capacity of the detector and turning the detection more directional As the detection through electrostatics has the property of polarizing the substrate, an electrical time constant was placed for this depolarization, keeping the sensor neutral to reflect the "ionic/electrostatic" fields. It is good to clarify that electrostatics reflects, concentrates, disperses, and is carried by metals, conductive wires, etc. The same as dynamic electricity. When the Directional Detector is moved into a horizontal or vertical position an static electricity is produced, electrostatics, according to Loeb, necessary in the ionic chamber for the use of positive "ions" which would meet the negative "ions" producing the phenomenom of Long Range Directional Detection with Substance Classifier, as it was explained before. The existent electronic circuits are just amplifiers of the "nano" signal supplied at the moment of the detection. The bigger sensor that surrounds the perimeter of the boardcircuit, is a sensor which reinforces the creation of the electrostatic field when moving the detector to locate any target.
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#28
10-20-2006, 09:50 PM
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#29
10-21-2006, 12:59 AM
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When I get some time I'll start a thread that takes all the Mineoro "explanations" and shows what utter nonsense they are. - Carl
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#31
10-21-2006, 06:43 PM
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......
:confused:
Esteban: "..similar to the reflectors used in the antique tv aerials, which had deflectors and reflectors to better concentrate the signal received from VHF..." Esteban this is the case when radio/tv signals are involved.....What kind of relation do you see when we talk about ions here??? Esteban: "..This sensor reflects and concentrates like a lens part of the energy that escapes and it is not detected by the "antenna" inside the black tube...." What "energy" ??? Ions or energy ??? "Antenna" .... now it is antenna or sort of antenna??? It was IONIC CHAMBER before?!? Ionic chamber concept is already well known,tested and used....long time ago. That "mainstream" concept is proven and has nothing simillar with that funny "black tube" produced by mineoro. Sorry Esteban, but these are facts....Also i do know that you just posted somebody's else claims not yours, so i do not want to argue with you but to let you know that those are nonsences.... and more...: "...It is good to clarify that electrostatics reflects, concentrates, disperses, and is carried by metals, conductive wires, etc. The same as dynamic electricity. When the Directional Detector is moved into a horizontal or vertical position an static electricity is produced, electrostatics, according to Loeb, necessary in the ionic chamber for the use of positive "ions" which would meet the negative "ions" producing the phenomenom of Long Range Directional Detection with Substance Classifier, as it was explained before. The existent electronic circuits are just amplifiers of the "nano" signal supplied at the moment of the detection. The bigger sensor that surrounds the perimeter of the boardcircuit, is a sensor which reinforces the creation of the electrostatic field when moving the detector to locate any target...." "electrostatics reflects" from what ???!??? "concentrates..."...How!???? "...disperses...".....Come again??!?? "and is carried by metals, conductive wires, etc. The same as dynamic electricity"... Yes,same as moisture,dust,corrosion,patina.....Ha! Please come again!? "necessary in the ionic chamber for the use of positive "ions" which would meet the negative "ions" producing the phenomenom of Long Range Directional Detection with Substance Classifier" NOTHING is going on in "ionic chamber"! No,negative,positive or "neutral"(ha,ha,ha..) IONS at all !!! So,phenomenom of LRL is tied to ions !!!??? What about airborne ions? (again).... "...The existent electronic circuits are just amplifiers of the "nano" signal supplied at the moment of the detection...." PSEUDO electronics, PSEUDO blah,blah....Just to say anything for laics.... What kind of "nano" is there in that funny,deaf,"poor" electronics in those devices? Did you or anybody else here opened and seen any LNB unit ever? (small tube stucked on Satellite dish....)??? Did you happen to see small SMT pcb inside,with MAR's or simillars? Did you ever asked yourself what kind of electronics is that? 12-14 GHz front end,local osci., down converter to 2GHz.... PLL... Can you imagine what kind of "job" that small LNB is doing all the time remaining so precize,while at the same time it is considered as plain electronics.....not "nano"???!?? What kind of "nano" mineoro is talking about??? What is "nano"??? Again bogus retorics...blah,blah just to look "scientific"..... " Gobbledy gook pseudoscientific techno-babble " Yes it is! Absolute truth ! "Whoever wrote this clearly doesn't understand electrostatics in the least" And many more things else! Scary! Pseudo "blah,blah" over pseudo science,backuped with pseudo products....but with HOT prices (not pseudo at all....). Everything about mineoro and other LRLs is ABSOLUTE NONSENCE except prices! "They" do not understand electronics,science...else...BUT "THEY" WANT TO EARN MONEY AS WELL!!! This subject never ends...it is so obvious... On every "our" word - "they" have two words!? No matter if some claims here are mindless,stupid,nonsences....as long as they are present and keep posted every day - better for "them" !!! The best way to fighting against this kind of "science"-ing is SILENCE! We should leave this subject for good...Let "them" amuse theirselves here,alone not disturbed by "us"... Since Carl want to keep this forum democratic,fair and honest....than let it be that way.... Problem is that a lot of "newbies" are coming here for the first time.They want something to learn...They want to find some knowledge here.....This is technical forum.... It should be GREAT SIN to let those "newbies" to be missguided by nonsences and pseudo-blah,blah- "money-sucking" pseudo sciences....stupid brainless posts and claims from LRL proponents,mineoro advocates and others....Luck is that there is a few of those here only. But even few of those are so "pesty",persistent and anoying that they are doing a GREAT DAMAGE to this forum..... Sometimes democracy is not proper choice.... Some people choose not to show here so often cose there are more nonsences every day here... Simillar threads "breeding" more and more every day on very same subject? Waste of time....Waste of nervs... So many good ideas,projects and posts "killed" even before posted here cose some people just changed their mind....looking and reading so many nonsences here.....Pitty! Where is KT315 ?? WHere are dozen people already seen here on this forum before ??? WHere are REAL experts? Conversants? 
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#32
10-21-2006, 07:53 PM
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Where is KT315 ?? WHere are dozen people already seen here on this forum
before ??? WHere are REAL experts? Conversants? As I see, remain in Remote Sensing forum the stupids, include I, you, Hung, Qiaozhi, Carl, Michael and others...  If you wish to increases the quality of all the forums here on Geotech, we can vote for to delete Remote Sensing. As I see, we're talking about witch-hunting, and the civilizate persons (experts!!!) can't participate in witch-hunting! If the major part of the opinants here (better, pre-opinants) since the start negates the possibility of a kind of electronic LRL, no reason for to persist in the existence of this subforum.
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#33
10-21-2006, 10:39 PM
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True!
 Yes this is true! We are STUPIDS! (including me too)... While we are arguing here, some frauds are taking HUGE money.... What we get from this? Nothing! Same as soccer ! 40 000 fools in stadium are acting very stupid while 22 fools on the field are taking money.....HUGE money.....for what .....for nothing!
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#34
10-22-2006, 05:44 PM
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- Carl
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#35
10-22-2006, 10:21 PM
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The bigger sensor that surrounds the perimeter of the boardcircuit, is a sensor which reinforces the creation of the electrostatic field when moving the detector to locate any target. Quote:
No, no, no. I corroborate their explanation. They are absolutely right. Remember what Damasio told you in the 'challenge' text. A 'new discovery' which is not known yet by the SC which allowed them to buid such a circuit. Yet impossible to be copied correctly.
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#36
10-23-2006, 08:05 PM
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#37
01-14-2007, 02:21 PM
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Hung, I'm not criticising, but I'm interested to see that no matter WHAT people sugggest, they are ALWAYS wrong, well let my put some petrol on the fire from a friend with a PH.d in Physics.
"It IS possible that this "ionic collection chamber" has a high voltage eletrostatic charge present within it. The pointed "collector" element could focus external charged particles which are behaving like radio waves and passing through the plastic housing (after all rediation passes through an electroscope housing) and thus change the spot charge density on the HV charged unit. depending on whether the charge became more positive or negative it MIGHT be possible to determine whether ferrous of non ferrous metal was present in the vicinity of the unit". He goes on to say, that MUCH better directional screening than the Mineoro unit has would be required to get directional information from the signal, and that, given the large amount of ferrous metal present in our towns and cities, that the UTube video is FAKE as trying to discriminate a gold coin in a city from 10 blocks away would be like trying to listen to a whipser 10 rows away at a football match after a touchdown for the home team. NO CHANCE!! So, my friend doesn't say it WON'T work, he says it's UNLIKELY that it will under all circumstances, whcih, strangely enough, is what people find when they use an LRL. It's a bit like NASA claim to have put a man on the moon, no one has actually SEEN the footprints apart from those who've "been there", so how can we refute the claim?
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#38
01-14-2007, 02:44 PM
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BTW look up STATIC in the dictionary, or any electrical reference book. My friend, people with a LOT more technical ability have explained how static fields behave thaan a bunch of conmen who claim LRL's work anad by what methods they do (?!?) work. Sorry FACT!!
I rather think that the likes of Carl and a few other here would have seen these "undiscovered" findings published, as professional Electronics Engineers we HAVE to stay up to date with ALL that is happening. We have to run to stand still these days lest our skills become obsolete. So when someone comes along and makes a bunch of ridiculous claims, you can imagine we rightly feel our intelligence, AND our MANY years of collective technical experience based on YEARS of actually DOING THE JOB for real is somewhat diminished and sometimes, yes, we even feel insulted:mad: , so PLEASE do not make stupid claims for bogus devices unless you can back them up with HARD FACTS which can be repeated under scientific scrutiny. "Better to let people THINK you are and idiot, than to open your mouth and PROVE it"! 
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#39
01-14-2007, 04:01 PM
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__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
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#40
01-16-2007, 02:43 PM
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They discovered a phenomena which apparently it's not known yet. For this they call it 'damasio-alonso method' when refering to the detection aproach. Based on what you posted, a little food for tought for you...You mention difficulty to discriminate a gold coin in a city, etc... Place a pocket radio in an acoustic sealed room. Turn it on. You will hear it perfectly. Now in the same room keeping the pocket radio on, place a 100 watt guitar amp cranked loud. Are you still able to hear the pocket radio? I don't think so. Quote:
I particularly have no doubt about the moon landing and also have ho doubt about Damasio and Alonso discovery which is not known yet. Question answered.
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#41
01-17-2007, 04:35 AM
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Ions or ionic fields that is the conundrum.
If they are detecting gold ions: Then we must conclude that the gold ions are somehow floating in the air since the detector probe is not being pushed into the ground, nor would it be able to detect the ions themselves at relatively long distances if the ions where trapped in (adhering to) the soil matrix in the form of a compound (ionic salts, etc.). We must also assume that somehow the ions can penetrate through the walls of the ionic chamber. Something that would require an extreme amount of unexplained kinetic energy on the part of the ion. We are also left with the need for a mechanism able to properly categorize the ions that enter the chamber. Such a mechanism is notably absent from the pictures of the chamber contents. If they are detecting the electric field from the ions: The gold ions that may be present on or near the surface are chemically compounded. Gold is the cation and another atom or radical acts as the anion. The ions can be viewed as point charges. In the case of gold, two types of cations are usual. +1 and +3. The former lacks 1 electron and the latter one lacks 3 electrons. As point charges, their electric field strength falls off as the square of the distance. But, the gold cations must remain in close proximity (on the order of several atomic diameters) to its corresponding anions to remain in this ionized state. The anion has an equal electric charge strength but of opposite sign. Thus their electric field is also equal but of opposite sign. If the ionic bond is broken, the gold ions would pick up some free electrons and becomes electrically neutral thus not producing an ionic field anymore. This has an important implication. At macro distances (distances greater than the molecular size of the compound), the electric field (ionic field) vanishes! The bulk of the electric field of the gold cations and corresponding anions cancel out. Any possible and much smaller residual field due to the fringing field or slight local atomic population density imbalance falls off as the square of the distance between the point source and the detector location. This residual field is not easy to calculate as it involves the numerical evaluation of the complete and incomplete elliptic integrals of the first and second kind, but it is assuredly miniscule at the physical distances contemplated for LRL applications. In a like manner, we are left with the difficulty of somehow identifying the source of this miniscule electric field as having come from a gold ion, as opposed to any other cations that are present in many of the other naturally occurring salts in the ground. Conclusion 1.- I fail to see how either method above can be used to make an LRL that works. 2.- Some person will see my use of elliptic integrals above and, erroneously, assume there is a direct relationship to the use of an elliptically shaped detection pattern in the mineoro web site or an elliptically shaped component inside the LRL. 3.- I expect that Hung will follow up to this post and: challenge this post; claim that I am ignorant of the scientific principles involved in the "damasio-alonso method", while, at the same time not contribute one iota towards providing any scientifically sound information explaining how the instrument could possibly work. Instead, appeals will be made to pseudo science and mumbo jumbo.
__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
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#42
01-17-2007, 06:24 AM
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Good call Rudy!
Rudy,
Excellant job and a breath of fresh air. If this unit works as good as my friends on this forum say it does, Mineoro is waging a serious dis-information campaign.  And frankly I can't blame them for not coming out with the real reason, then we could build our own for under $100 from what I've seen. I tried to meet with the US Distributor who lives in my neck of the woods but so far it hasn't happened. When he first got his Dist.,I told him to go to the various Gold Prospector club outings and demonstrate the units. People would find a way to get the cash if it could be shown them right then and there how easily you could locate gold in the field. As they say, build a better mouse trap and people will beat a path to your door step to buy it! Randy WD6ELU MXT Master
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#43
01-17-2007, 04:12 PM
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Randy, I suspect the Ca dealer has learned that Mineoro, works only during suitable magnetic conditions and does not work when the necessary operating conditions for the Mineoro, or any LRL are not present.
Suitable operating conditions are not predictable in advance and can sometimes fluxuate in and out as quickly as 2-3 second intervals. This makes the ability to demonstrate the product at any specific time, random chance at best. The same applies operating in the field. You never know in advance whether there will be reception, or not. Unless you can spend several days with the dealer, or fortunate to test at a time of good reception in that area, it will be easy to conclude that the product never works. In my opinion, this problem is solveable, but in 20 years I have not seen any manufacturer with the funds, that has recognized the problem, or has attempted to address it. When the missing componnent is added, Remote Sensing Discrimination products will operate with consistency. Dell
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#44
01-18-2007, 01:00 AM
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totally unusable
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#45
01-18-2007, 02:51 AM
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[QUOTE=Seden;49183]Rudy,
Excellant job and a breath of fresh air. If this unit works as good as my friends on this forum say it does, Mineoro is waging a serious dis-information campaign. Yes indeed! I should also have added to the conumdrum post the following: If is it sensing gold ions floating in air over the deposits, then there is another consequence: 1. The detection pattern would not be an ellipse with the long axis aligned with the North/South magnetic poles. Quite simply, the airborne ions would be dissipated by the prevailing winds and drift away from the target location as well as be further dilluted by the air currents. Quote:
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__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
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#46
01-18-2007, 03:04 AM
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There are too many environmental variables making it impossible to expect consistent working results (geomagnetic conditions, humidity,...). The probability that the LRL works during any reasonable time window is purely a random chance. The only way to prove that it actually works is to continue to try it until, given the same laws of probability and random chance, you actually dig something of value. In the meantime, the lack of success is attributed to less than optimal enviromental conditions. A million monkeys sitting at a million typewriters and given enough time, one of them will eventually type a Mineoro operating manual.
__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
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#47
01-19-2007, 02:10 AM
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Ion theory a ruse!
Rudy,
I guess I should of been more specific. What I was trying to say is the explanation given by Mineoro is pure B.S. and again your point is well taken regarding ions. Heck, for that matter it's easy to blow air on a stream high voltage/low current stream of ions and move them.  Would be nice to read out the code in the uP to see just what it is doing. I cannot pass judgement on this unit until I have one in hand in the field and run it though a battery of tests out in the desert away from all the interference locally (RFI,EMI). Until then I will keep an open mind as if for no other reason I respect Esteban's technical ability from our emailing back and forth sharing information. Randy
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#48
01-19-2007, 02:42 AM
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I hope you will continue to try to meet up with Kurt. He and I exchange a slew of emails way back, when he was wondering whether Mineoro pulled a fast one on him at the demo they gave. I suggested several things he could try, to conclusively prove whether their devices work. I guess he didn't follow through. - Carl
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