Coils for LRL

[Mike(Mont)]

A capacitor is ion seperation. The way a tuned loop works is the energy is captured by the coil and a charge builds up on one side of the capacitor. Then since the other side of the cap has an imbalance the charge flows back through the coil to the other side of the capacitor and if it's tuned it will continue to resonate as the capacitor acts like a spring. I would think it shouldn't really matter which polarity of ions you are measuring because both are present.

The whole point of this discussion is that the human body can act like a tuned antenna. The body has some capacitance, and if you hold your arms out there is going to be a slight amount of energy that flows through the air from one hand to the other. So if you think of your hands as the vanes on a capacitor, the ions are right there. Comprende?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

A capacitor is ion seperation. The way a tuned loop works is the energy is captured by the coil and a charge builds up on one side of the capacitor. Then since the other side of the cap has an imbalance the charge flows back through the coil to the other side of the capacitor and if it's tuned it will continue to resonate as the capacitor acts like a spring. I would think it shouldn't really matter which polarity of ions you are measuring because both are present.

The whole point of this discussion is that the human body can act like a tuned antenna. The body has some capacitance, and if you hold your arms out there is going to be a slight amount of energy that flows through the air from one hand to the other. So if you think of your hands as the vanes on a capacitor, the ions are right there. Comprende?

Sure, it's easy enough to understand what you're saying, but this does not explain anything about measuring free airborne ions that are sucked from the air into a meter that is said to count them.

Generally, ions are known to result from very high voltages present in a gas, or from a source of nuclear radiation, and from chemical reactions -- but not from a loop antenna. While a capacitor can contain a charge imbalance between the plates, this imbalance is contained within the conductors, and does not cause the surrounding gas or dust particles in the air to become charged unless there is a very high voltage on the capacitor plates while they are in contact with the air.
...Which brings us back to the questions that came to mind when you described measuring an ion count peak as you adjusted your capacitor:

Has the ion content of the air actually changed due to the coil being tuned to a resonant frequency?
Maybe an RF carrier wave at the tuned frequency has something to do with it?
Did the ungrounded meter respond differently than if it was grounded?
Could the internal meter circuit be effected by nearby receiver circuits, even if the ion content of the air does not change?

And one new question:
Does this particular meter actually count ions -- or is this only what the literature says?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

Again, you seem to have totally missed to point. The ions are at the capacitor, not the coil. This is the same sensation I get when I am on the signal line from a frequency generator when my body is in resonance. You believe the Air Ion Counter does not count ions in the air?

[Mike(Mont)]

http://amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

Again, you seem to have totally missed to point. The ions are at the capacitor, not the coil. This is the same sensation I get when I am on the signal line from a frequency generator when my body is in resonance. You believe the Air Ion Counter does not count ions in the air?

Hi Mike(Mont),
I doubt I missed your point.
You have been alleging that ions are at the capacitor plates, and that you can "feel" them as well as measure the ion count in the air peaking when you adjust the capacitor. Your point seems to be there are ions in the air near the capacitor that increase when the capacitor is adjusted.

I agree the capacitor plates charge and discharge during a cycle where tiny currents are oscillating through the coil to the capacitor.
Your inference which you can't explain is how a passive loop with a capacitor can cause ions to form in the air near the capacitor.
The point is a non-powered loop with a capacitor does not emit ions into the air, and the question is centered around what your meter measured.

Let's review again:
Airborne ions are formed in significant amounts under the following conditions:
1. High voltage in the air, ie: lightning storm, ion generator, Tesla coil, electrostatic air cleaner, cathode ray tube, etc.
2. Related to high voltage is friction, ie: dust storm (wind friction) can cause ions to form in the air, Van de Graff generator, rub shoes on carpet during low humidity, etc.
3. Radiation penetrating the air, ie: Alpha particle, proton from decayed atom, radon gas in the air, cosmic rays, etc.
4. High heat, ie: volcano, forest fire, stove top, foundry, ceramic kiln, etc.


Your explanation is "The ions are at the capacitor, not the coil".

Airborne ions?
According to your non-grounded and non-zeroed meter measurements, yes.
Your proof is the peak you saw on this non-grounded and non-zeroed ion counter meter when you adjusted the capacitor at a certain point.

But wait...
Let's see what the people who sell this meter have to say about the ions you count with their meter: http://www.trifield.com/content/about-air-ions/
"Ions cannot be produced without an energy source. An "energy source" means, heat or flame, radioactivity, frictional rubbing, electricity, evaporation (which is a heat process), etc. Minerals that are not radioactive do not spontaneously emit ions. Normal fair-weather ion concentrations are 200 to 800 negative and 250 to 1500 positive ions per cubic centimeter. Indoor levels are usually lower. Several hours before a storm, + ion concentration will increase dramatically, sometimes exceeding 5000 ions per cubic centimeter (cm3). During a storm, - ions increase to several thousand while + ions decrease, often to below 500".

The producers of this meter seem to agree with the classical concept of how ions are produced. It seems they also think ions are only produced when a high amount of energy is present to cause ions to form from high voltage, temperature, friction, or radiation. They do not talk about ions produced when you adjust a capacitor on a passive loop. They also have a full page explaining the need for grounding and zeroing the meter as well as some other precautions that are necessary to prevent false readings: http://www.trifield.com/content/AIC-Instructions/
-----

However, you posted a link which (I presume) explains why the passive loop antenna with a capacitor also produces ions in the air: http://amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
I have read that entire page several times, but I can't seem to find the part about where the passive coil/capacitor produces airborne ions.
He talks about how you could get some high voltages from a resonant loop/cap circuit only in theory, not in practice.
He says we can only expect a tiny amount of power unless impossible conditions can be created:
"Note: the above phenomenon can only occur for an ideal LC circuit, where the resistance of the coil is zero and where the Q of the circuit is infinite".

Basically, he is explaining his version of how a passive loop can improve reception and perform as if it were be a larger antenna, maybe up to the performance of a 1/4 wave dipole if you connected it to a lot of power.
His references to receiving high voltage are theoretical concepts that do not appear in the real world unless you could arrive at an infinite Q with a superconducting coil. He tells us:
"Just as we might expect, everything here is similar to a conventional radio antenna. The weak e-field from the incoming EM waves behaves only as a "signal", and it is not a source of significant power. It can't drive a motor or light an LED".

He also talks about the rather limited application of these loops that increase the "effective antenna size".
"Keep in mind that this device is a relatively small affair sitting in your back yard. It's not a 1KHz quarter-wave dipole tower 25 miles tall. There's no huge antenna, so we would not expect to find any huge level of electric power appearing in the circuit".

He says not to expect any high voltage in your back yard loops, but I don't see anywhere he shows how this backyard loop at can generate ions into the air.

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

You believe the Air Ion Counter does not count ions in the air?

I don't know what to believe about this meter. I guess I can believe you did not ground it or zero it before you took readings. I guess I can believe you saw a peak when you were turning the capacitor.
Maybe it can count ions, but was not used properly to count them?
Maybe the meter you used does not count ions?
I don't know.

According to what is known about airborne ions, there is no reason why they should appear as a result of adjusting the capacitor on a backyard passive loop.
That is why these questions still come to mind:

1. Has the ion content of the air actually changed due to the coil being tuned to a resonant frequency?
2. Maybe an RF carrier wave at the tuned frequency has something to do with it?
3. Did the ungrounded meter respond differently than if it was grounded?
4. Could the internal meter circuit be effected by nearby receiver circuits, even if the ion content of the air does not change?
5. Does this particular meter actually count ions -- or is this only what the literature says?

Do you have an explanation how a passive loop and capacitor produce ions in the air?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Mike(Mont)]

I finally got the air-core coil wound yesterday. Anyone who has ever wound a coil knows what I went through for a learning curve! First step I would suggest is to wind your wire onto a bigger spool. I used an old bicycle tire rim without spokes, etc. AFTER I tried to wind it from the small spool. The wire gets pinched into the other spool wires, and it's a huge hassle. Once I used the tire rim things went MUCH smoother. More later.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

I finally got the air-core coil wound yesterday. Anyone who has ever wound a coil knows what I went through for a learning curve! First step I would suggest is to wind your wire onto a bigger spool. I used an old bicycle tire rim without spokes, etc. AFTER I tried to wind it from the small spool. The wire gets pinched into the other spool wires, and it's a huge hassle. Once I used the tire rim things went MUCH smoother. More later.

Was that a 26 or a 27" rim?

[Mike(Mont)]

I must admit this air-core coil is very fragile. For starters, I used just a pound or so pull on the wire as I did the winding and now I realize the 1" x 2" wood frame is just barely adequate. Stiffer wire (thicker) is going to have even more strain on the frame. And the thin wires are so delicate, I'm glad I didn't go any thinner for the first time project. Anyway from what I take the thin wire is okay for lower frequencies.

So what I did was to turn on the frequency generator, tune the coil for peak voltage, then use uA meter and look for anomolies. Also I tuned frequency started at 59.5 KHz and went up until I found something the coil liked.

Would I suggest anyone build this project? No way! You should have seen the mess I had on the first attempt. I had half the wire on after a couple hours and numerous tangles of the wire on the small spool when i realized the first few turns were slack. So I tried to tighten them and they just started to fall off the frame. Then everything got tangled. So after untangling and winding a large part back on another small spool I finally realized that I needed to wind the wire on the bike rim first.

[Mike(Mont)]

I want to thank Esteban for all the good info he posted.

[detectoman]

esteban of paraguay, is of group geotech's md master electronician booz
md lrlst, master alonso of brasil, is the world's great booz

[goldfinder]

JPlayer is right,Capacitors don't have ions. They can have an electrical charge. The charge is explained as electrons. The dielectric holds the field energy. Basically a stress in the dielectric when there is charge across the capacitor plate.

If is possible for sensitive people to feel the charge on a capacitor and perhaps Mont Mike is able to do this. I myself can do this and have been tested in very controlled situations by competent scientists. I can also sense when a wire is energized with a voltage. I don't know the mechanism of this but it is an ability some have. My brother also has it. We can both look at a circuit and tell what parts of the circuit are energized with voltage.

As far as dowsing goes, I flunk of in that arena for finding treasure but can locate water. Maybe because the body is 80% water is why. If we were 80% gold then it might be a different story.

Goldfinder

[Mike(Mont)]

Not only can I feel the ion charge as a slight breeze, my ion counter reads there are negative ions, and near the coil I have even smelled ozone or ozium, or whatever it's called. No doubt about it. Yes, I suppose it is possible it came from another source, even a resonance within my own cells but not at all likely. My senses narrowed it down to within an inch or two. I don't know it you read that link I posted. An antenna can produce high voltage when in resonance. For that matter so can human cells or a human antenna. High voltage is one way to produce ions.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

... I don't know it you read that link I posted. An antenna can produce high voltage when in resonance...

I read that link you posted.
And I think you are spreading propaganda that the author did not state. He talked about a theoretical high voltage that couldn't exist unless some impossible conditions could be created. The high voltage he talked about was only a hypothetical example he used to try to explain how small antennas can tune long wavelengths. His point was that if a zero resistance circuit with infinite Q could be built, then hypothetically, it could develop a high ac voltage under certain conditions. He was quick to point out that this high voltage does not exist in the real world for small resonant loop antennas:
"Note: the above phenomenon can only occur for an ideal LC circuit, where the resistance of the coil is zero and where the Q of the circuit is infinite".
"...Keep in mind that this device is a relatively small affair sitting in your back yard. It's not a 1KHz quarter-wave dipole tower 25 miles tall. There's no huge antenna, so we would not expect to find any huge level of electric power appearing in the circuit". Read it here for yourself: http://amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html

Do you really believe this author was saying there is high voltage in your non-powered backyard loop and capacitor, or that they can generate ions in the air?
Do you expect us to believe he was telling us your back yard loop and capacitor is generating some high voltage or ions?

I think it is easier to believe goldfinder's explanation than an explanation that spreads false propaganda and relies on misquoting what others say.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

Not only can I feel the ion charge as a slight breeze, my ion counter reads there are negative ions, and near the coil I have even smelled ozone or ozium, or whatever it's called. No doubt about it. Yes, I suppose it is possible it came from another source, even a resonance within my own cells but not at all likely. My senses narrowed it down to within an inch or two. I don't know it you read that link I posted. An antenna can produce high voltage when in resonance. For that matter so can human cells or a human antenna. High voltage is one way to produce ions.

Sorry, Mike, but you are sadly mistaken. Better get your 7th grade science text out and give it some study.

If your statement had any hint of truth to it, there would be no reason to spend so much money building elaborate power generating plants.

[Mike(Mont)]

Yes, I have an ongoing education here. The ions are coming from somewhere, I mentioned it could be from the human cells as a product from the antenna. My hand was near the ion counter and it is true I feel the ion breeze on my hands when locating. It's not like I'm the only person in the world who has experienced the ion breeze. I'll bet most people have and never realized it. Probaly the easiest way to experience it is put your hand near a negative ion generator. I know a guy who burned his hand on a exhaust pipe and he used the ion generator said the cool breeze helped relieve the pain and claimed it helped with the healing.

But back to the coils, yes there have been difficulties with my experiments but like one guy said "pretty soon there won't be anything else left to go wrong". LOL. I haven't had time to do anything with it lately.

[Mike(Mont)]

Been messing with the coil in my yard (near power lines). Not really sure much about anything. I hooked up a frequency counter to it and had to get near to the transmitter before it was pulled off the 60Hz reading to the tuned frequency 59.5K in this case. So I realize the transmitter antenna is not supposed to work like a typical radio antenna (tuned).

When measuring microamps the meter reading will smoothly increase as I approach the power lines, but when there is a signal line it is like there is a slight delay --the meter will flatten then jump to catch up to where it was headed. It almost feels like the signal line is pulled along a couple feet or so as I walk through it. So I wonder if the coil is picking up some capacitance or whatever from me (sort of like grabbing a TV antenna and changing the tuning). There's no doubt the power lines are the dominant force, but if there is an underlying frequency from the transmitter in the coil I don't know how to measure it. I need to get out away from the 60Hz and see what happens. Got more things to try out.

[Mike(Mont)]

I ordered another capacitor for the coil I built. No, I don't know what I'm doing and hope I don't hurt myself LOL. Anybody here worked with coil building/tuning the SLF or ELF frequencies? It seems to me if you don't much of a coil you need a big capacitor and that is not going to be easy to tune to an exact frequency.