Psychical Physics by Tromp

[Mike(Mont)]

I would not recommend this book. It has a lot of info, but it's 65 years old. Tromp was a skeptic but after doing research he came to understand that dowsing is real. This book give me the creeps. There are some experiments discussed that just make me very uncomfortable. If you want references, he has 1496 sources listed. No doubt many people have used this book to build their knowledge base, but I don't think it is current enough to be of much use today unless you are a total dowsing geek/nerd.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

Tromp was a skeptic but after doing research he came to understand that dowsing is real.

.

Mike, no one claims that dowsing is not real.

Dowsing is real.

Real (mostly unconsciously) auto-scam.

[Mike(Mont)]

Nobody claims skeptics aren't real, either. Real idiots.

I wish someone would have told me that book is so nerdy, it's nauseating in places. I really wish I hadn't even read it.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

Nobody claims skeptics aren't real, either. Real idiots.

.

Is it possible that from skeptics as you were in past, incurred smart guy?

[Mike(Mont)]

BTW, I saw some ridiculously high priced copies of this book on ebay. Don't waste your money.

[WM6]

Agree Mike, it is better to buy gold jewelry.

[Mike(Mont)]

I paid too much for the copy I got. I'll sell it cheap --$40 shipped.

[Tinkerer]

Here is another dowsing http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/Dowsing.htm

Tinkerer

[Mike(Mont)]

FYI, you can order the Tromp book at Natural Energy Works and save some postage. I'm not saying it's worthless, there is a lot of info there, but Tromp was not a dowser. That just makes the whole thing weird. I think that is what Christopher Hills meant when he talked about people "reporting" on dowsing. They are bystanders and if you don't learn it and experience it, you just don't know. In the Supersensonics book, Hills did most/all of the experiments. It is a first-hand work by an expert. That makes it much higher value and it's why the book is know as the "The Dowser's Bible".

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Tinkerer

Here is another dowsing http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/Dowsing.htm

Tinkerer

Hi Tinkerer,
This is an interesting report. It is a review of the testing methods used by researchers to ascertain whether dowsing works, written by George Hanson, another non-dowsing researcher. It appears he was researching only the methods others used to test dowsing in some notable tests conducted over past decades.

While some may consider his writings to be weird, I think this is an excellent report. He saves us the time of looking up all of the published dowsing tests and determining which ones were notable. Then he analyzes the procedures used in the tests to determine how valid results can be considered by the standards of the Society for Physical Research. He also addresses human physiological senses that may come into play with dowsers. I am reading a lot of things that I don't normally consider when listening to the usual debates about dowsing that we read in this forum.

His conclusions seem to be the same as what I think about dowsing without doing all the painstaking research he did to arrive at those conclusions. I too would like to see any dowser locate a hidden object with their dowsing apparatus in a manner where precautions are taken to avoid sloppy experimental testing procedures. Simple double-blind testing that does not leave clues for a person to guess where the hidden object is would work.


Maybe the most propagandically significant thing I learned when reading this paper was the meaning of the word "debunker".
I see this word used in the second page of the report where Hanson writes:

"Debunkers claim that dowsers are little more than practical geologists".

So skeptics were wrong all along about "Debunker" not being a word. It is a noun used to describe a person who debunks.
I suppose anyone who uses this word as a verb just doesn't have a very clear understanding of English grammar.

But then, when I use words like "propagandically", I suppose I don't know English grammar so well either.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by J_Player

But then, when I use words like "propagandically", I suppose I don't know English grammar so well either.

Best wishes,
J_P

You need to learn to write proper ... like what I do.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

You need to learn to write proper ... like what I do.

...I thought they learned me pretty good at the schools what I went to.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Seden]

Mike,

I've had Tromps and Christopher Hills books and Hill mixes B.S. religion into the text. I tried really hard to ignore the Eastern Religion junk but after much frustration tossed it into the trash along with Tromps book which as you point out is way too in depth analysis on the subject. Now I've read good things about Christopher Birds book on dowsing-no New Age nonsense at all.

And so it goes.

Randy

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Seden

Mike,

I've had Tromps and Christopher Hills books and Hill mixes B.S. religion into the text. I tried really hard to ignore the Eastern Religion junk but after much frustration tossed it into the trash along with Tromps book which as you point out is way too in depth analysis on the subject. Now I've read good things about Christopher Birds book on dowsing-no New Age nonsense at all.

And so it goes.

Randy

Christopher Hills is a self-proclaimed wise and wonderful wizard. From his website he writes of himself... " that his life was a marvelous weave of science and biology, consciousness and commerce, ancient knowledge and new discovery. His path of dedication to God led him at last to the Goddess. He built a Sanctuary in her honor at the Garden of Forgiveness and rejoiced daily in her etheric frequencies"

You were correct in tossing his literature into the trash. It is not only worthless, but totally baseless. Hills found a niche industry that appealed to those trying to satisfy their interest in the occult with a twist of Eastern Religion. Hills was incredibly prolific in generating these works and even though he has passed on; the stuff is still available on the Shelf entitled Weird, Esoteric and Completely Out in Left Field.

Only a tiny select group of people find his crap interesting, probably because he mixes his Eastern Religion with words like waves, radiation, frequency and other terms he lifted from conventional science.

Like the average LRL scam artist; I guess they figure if they mix in a few terms from real science, that somehow it lends credibility to their pseudo-science. They are wrong.

Checkout this little item: http://www.quantumbalancing.com/pi-ray.htm

Need I say more......

[Seden]

You should of warned me to how deep the B.S. was on the linked site so I could of at least put on my Rubber Boots! I HATE that stuff.

Yep you nailed it re: Dr. Hills and his sicko widow and her perverted video.
I was raised Christian Science so I've had just enough mind science crap.

Randy

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Seden

You should of warned me to how deep the B.S. was on the linked site so I could of at least put on my Rubber Boots! I HATE that stuff.

Yep you nailed it re: Dr. Hills and his sicko widow and her perverted video.
I was raised Christian Science so I've had just enough mind science crap.

Randy

Dang, maybe yer right,
This guy is selling a lot of junk. It says at the top of his links page:

"This website is dedicated to water research and the effects of frequencies and geometry on water and other liquids.
This area of research is sometimes referred to as Cymatics, and Vibro Acoustic Technology."

His first product listed is an "Advanced bio-photon analyzer" that comes with a "Vortex imprinter plate SP3" included for only $1795.

Then there's a lot more homeopathic gadgets to cure or restore your body's biorhythms. He even sells an attachment for a water bottle that has magnets on it called a water vortex magnetizer, which he claims works by magnetohydrodynamics. The water that passes through an orifice with magnets is called "structured energy water". So you pour water from a 1-liter bottle through this orifice with magnets on it, and the water forms a whirlpool as it passes through the opening. I guess that's magnetohydrodynamics creating "structured energy water", right? He claims: "In theory, the Water Vortex Magnetizer transfers its own natural vibrational imprint onto any water, including tap water. This means that any imprints from chemicals or toxins in the water may be erased, and the new natural pattern of vortex magnetic implosion energies are applied." Hmmm... does this mean it is ok to drink toxic waste water that you pour through it?

I won't even go on about the peizo-sparker that he sells for $129 to stop aches and pains, on account of most people are smart enough to buy a $2 cigarette lighter and use the peizo spark generator from inside it if they think it will relieve aches and pains.

Funny how I haven't seen any of these gadgets in a doctor's office.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by J_Player

< stuff snipped>

I won't even go on about the peizo-sparker that he sells for $129 to stop aches and pains, on account of most people are smart enough to buy a $2 cigarette lighter and use the peizo spark generator from inside it if they think it will relieve aches and pains.

Funny how I haven't seen any of these gadgets in a doctor's office.

Best wishes,
J_P

No doubt he would be pushing Radionics Machines too, except they were outlawed from American medicine years ago by the FDA and AMA.

Only the extremely gullible and/or those interested in the occult (and other things that go bump in the night) would be taken in by the Hills contraptions and writings.

[Mike(Mont)]

I don't know what to say. Hills has given me more insight than all the other dowsing books I have read combined. I realize (and Hills admits) many of his comcepts could seem unbelievable if you haven't experienced dowsing, but I can only say I think you guys really missed it. That book is a masterpiece. It's like you are searching for excuses. I really feel sorry for you that you can't enjoy what he has to offer. I certainly don't claim to be a genius, although I have been told by a president of a university that some of my test scores reflect it. I had to read that book a dozen times before some of it started to make sense, and I still don't have it all--and I know how to locate. A huge amount of that book is inbetween the lines. I just have to believe he writes way over most people's head, yet every word, every concept is exact and precise. You guys lose on this one.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

I don't know what to say. Hills has given me more insight than all the other dowsing books I have read combined. I realize (and Hills admits) many of his comcepts could seem unbelievable if you haven't experienced dowsing, but I can only say I think you guys really missed it. That book is a masterpiece. It's like you are searching for excuses. I really feel sorry for you that you can't enjoy what he has to offer. I certainly don't claim to be a genius, although I have been told by a president of a university that some of my test scores reflect it. I had to read that book a dozen times before some of it started to make sense, and I still don't have it all--and I know how to locate. A huge amount of that book is inbetween the lines. I just have to believe he writes way over most people's head, yet every word, every concept is exact and precise. You guys lose on this one.

Well that explains it. No wonder I can't enjoy what he has to offer. I missed the parts that were written between the lines.
I guess it all goes back to the underlying problem of low intelligence. Certainly no university president ever told me I am a genius.

If I go back and read all the sections between the lines that I just plain didn't read, will that solve the problem of not enjoying this masterpiece?

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

Nobody claims skeptics aren't real, either. Real idiots.

I wish someone would have told me that book is so nerdy, it's nauseating in places. I really wish I hadn't even read it.

Eh!? You are actually saying sceptics are idiots?
Not constructive. As sceptic i feel offended. You should explain your attitude on this...

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

I don't know what to say. Hills has given me more insight than all the other dowsing books I have read combined. I realize (and Hills admits) many of his comcepts could seem unbelievable if you haven't experienced dowsing, but I can only say I think you guys really missed it. That book is a masterpiece. It's like you are searching for excuses. I really feel sorry for you that you can't enjoy what he has to offer. I certainly don't claim to be a genius, although I have been told by a president of a university that some of my test scores reflect it. I had to read that book a dozen times before some of it started to make sense, and I still don't have it all--and I know how to locate. A huge amount of that book is inbetween the lines. I just have to believe he writes way over most people's head, yet every word, every concept is exact and precise. You guys lose on this one.

...and I feel sorry for you, for being taken in by yet another charlatan. You seem to be the poster boy here for letting scam artists take advantage of you and rob you of many thousands of dollars. What an absolute tragedy.

You say; "...you know how to locate" ??? What does that mean? That you can get a bent wire to respond to your internally-generated ideomotor response? I can't think of a single individual who can't accomplish the same feat. Like every other human being who tries dowsing... it works great for you as long as you know where the target is, or have a good idea. As Carl has said; Dowsing is nothing more than an indicator of intuition, best guessing and logical deduction. With or without the addition of do-nothing electronic black boxes - that's all it is. And, when dealing with totally unknown targets, it will always be subject to a great many errors.

The truth is; if you really knew how to locate, and could actually find treasure with all your expensive dowsing contraptions and all the knowledge you have gleaned from the masterpiece(?) Supersensonics, you wouldn't even be here. Instead, you'd be enjoying the fruits of all your found treasures, living the good life. Hanging around here taking part in lost-cause word battles would be the last thing you'd consider doing.

Was the university president who commented on your test scores an employee of the University of The Trees, founded by the charlatan C. Hills?

And what about the other test scores; ...that didn't indicate you were anything close to being a genius?

[Mike(Mont)]

I am extremely sensitive to anyone trying to push any religion on me. I did not sense that in the Supersensonics book. And I don't feel it has anything much "new age" in it. Yes, Hills discusses some teachings of yoga that relate to dowsing because yoga has known about it for thousands of years. He shows how the human body can become an antenna. Even their "scientific method" was more demanding than what is used today.

[Mike(Mont)]

I think it is disgusting the way Hills is treated around here. He dedicated a large part of his life to helping others. He donated millions of dollars to charities. And you wonder why I say skepticism is a psychological disorder.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

He donated millions of dollars to charities.

And how do they earn all those millions? By dowsing?

Charity is only a social hypocrisy. By charity unjust and rich people feel that they have washed their dirty hands and sinful soul.