Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector circuit

[Esteban]

I'll talk with Alonso and Damásio for to create a Mineoro forum, a place where the people leave his impressions. Maybe this is the only way for to solve this pile of discussions: create a place of discussions between owners and others.
Hung, also you are in position for to talk about it with Alonso and Damásio.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by hung

Just to make it clear. Every Mineoro detector finds gold.

Well, let me go back to a question I had asked previously, but went unanswered.

The PDC205 I had tested would not detect gold. I was told that it was a 1-knob model, and not a 2-knob model. Apparently the 2-knob model would really really detect gold, but the 1-knob model maybe would not. :confused:

I now have an opportunity to buy a PDC210. Are all the PDC210's equally capable, or are there certain versions of the PDC210 I should avoid?

- Carl

[hung]

I think the time has come to start another thread, since this has nothing to do with the original thread. So I decided to post the replies in this new thread. Please check ‘Mineoro Detector Explanations’

[goldfinder]

To Esteban or Hung,
Youall seem to be the experts on this use of the Mineoro and ION detectors in general. Esteban recommended having both plus and minus capability on the ion detector antenna so the operator could switch to one or other. So - I have a question for you.

What is the antenna polarity (i.e. plus Volts or Minus Volts) with respect to the detection circuitry that you recommended for detection of buried gold???

Thanks in advance for a reply,
Goldfinder

[hung]

I can't speak for Esteban's detectors but in the case of Mineoro, the ionic chamber is positive in relation to the incoming negative ions.

[J_Player]

Gold ions have a charge of +1 and +3 in common conditions found at or near the surface of the earth at standard atmospheric conditions. It would seem that gold ions are repelled by a positive ion chamber. In the case of Ivconic's detector, any gold ions would be attracted to the dish and repelled by the antenna. Because gold ions are positive, they would not be detected by a negative ion detector. This is perhaps the reason that some ion detectors have a provisioin to reverse the polarity.

I still do not believe gold ions exist in the air or the soil in any measurable amount where a detector can sense them. Ivconic stated that he found no evidence of any ions of any kind in the air near long-time buried targets. But if we are wrong, then maybe Esteban or hung can show us where to find these ions.

[hung]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Gold ions have a charge of +1 and +3 in common conditions found at or near the surface of the earth at standard atmospheric conditions. It would seem that gold ions are repelled by a positive ion chamber. In the case of Ivconic's detector, any gold ions would be attracted to the dish and repelled by the antenna. Because gold ions are positive, they would not be detected by a negative ion detector. This is perhaps the reason that some ion detectors have a provisioin to reverse the polarity.

I still do not believe gold ions exist in the air or the soil in any measurable amount where a detector can sense them. Ivconic stated that he found no evidence of any ions of any kind in the air near long-time buried targets. But if we are wrong, then maybe Esteban or hung can show us where to find these ions.

The mineoro's ionic chamber do emit positive ions which crash the negative ones dispersed by earth. Remember earth is negative. That's why detection power raises prior to rain as atmosphere is fully positive charged. Also don't foget the electrostatic field plays a role here...

At this point I admit I finally start to understand how the Mineoro detectors work and how they could possibly detect, but I won't coment on that since I respect their discovery.
Regards.

[goldfinder]

Yes, anyone with a little atomic phisics or chemistry knows gold ions are positive, they have lost electrons to make them a postivly charged ion. There are no ions until the atom either gains or loses charge. That is why I made my last post regarding the insistance of Esteban to be able to change the polarity of the antenna.

IF the Minero "ion" chamber is positive as Hung says, then the detector is detecting negative "ions" or electrons emited by the gold. If Hung is right about the detection going up before a thunder and lightening storm then just may be - the Mineoror detector is detecting the "crashes", i.e., the electrons being attracted to the walls of the ion chamber to create a little spark or neutralization of the chamber and the electronics detects the change in the chamber voltage. So these "crashes" that Hung and Esteban have mentioned is the Mineoro electronics amplifying this effect and there is a pulse that goes to the headphones to create the "crash".

So if we follow this reasoning a little further then all we need is an amplifier that detects voltage change on the ion "chamber" or "antenna" that is charged with a well controled voltage level. The center antenna pole is superfluous.

Goldfinder

[J_Player]

Interesting theory, but here are a few questions:

1. Buried gold dies not ionize much compared to other metals alloyed in the gold and other minerals in the ground. For every single gold ion, there are millions of other ions such as copper tin, lead, etc. in the same vicinity. When a buried peice of metallic gold atom loses 1 or 3 electrons to become a gold ion, It will go into solution with the moisture in the ground that it is in contact with. As soon as a copper or other metal ion is in the same vicinity, the gold ion will immediately revert back to matallic gold, re-attaching to the gold metal, or remaining as a metalic gold particle in the ground. The small traces of gold ions are negligible, and cannot be measured, and "crashes" of gold electrons happen within a small fraction of a millimeter to the buried metallic gold object. The question is how can the LRL detector hear the "crashes" from gold ion electrons in the midst of millions more "crashes" from other ions? Wouldn't any disturbance caused by the minute trace of gold ions be damped millions of copper, lead, sodium, tin, and other metal ions?

2. Any common metal target buried in the ground is not likely to send electrons to the surface where they can be collected or detected. The electrons "crash" within a microscopic area around the ion in solution. this microscopic area may be buried several feet under the ground, and has no way to transport these "crashing" electrons to the surface of the ground. Question is how do free electrons that left a gold atom travel through several feet of earth and through the air in all directions, and arrive wherever a LRL user might be holding his detector in some nearby vicinity?

Not to say there can't be any pricniple how a mineoro LRL works, but perhaps the travelling ionic signal theory is a red herring.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi all
Here a good theory on ground battery and ULF:
http://www.spie.org/web/oer/august/a...rthquakes.html

[goldfinder]

Another question for you experts on the Mineoro --

Regarding the "Ion Chamber" - Does the Mineoro have a fan inside pulling air into the ion chamber??


Thanks for all your previous discussion. I hope you have good luck finding those big bars of gold!

Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Hi

No fan inside the chamber.

Thanks very much, best wishes for you.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by goldfinder

Another question for you experts on the Mineoro --

Regarding the "Ion Chamber" - Does the Mineoro have a fan inside pulling air into the ion chamber??

A fan would do no good... the so-called ion chamber is a piece of PVC pipe filled with epoxy. Here is a pic of the back-side...

[Alexismex]

Hello forum , It is too easy to go to your dentist or doctor (for big thing) and take a radiograph from this thing , take two shoot one vertical and one horizontal....and see what you have in , for me a piece of junk !!!!
Soon I will have a Mineoro in my hands (a mexicain friend who find nothing at all) and I promise you to shoot photos of every pieces of junk for the forum ....
See for example a good radiograph for demistified coil Minelab DD:
http://www.thunting.com/geotech/foru...d.php4?t=10754

With a photo like that you can easely make your DD working perfectly...
I like this forum for all the good guys and things you have , thank you for participitate, thank you Carl,
Alexis.

[goldfinder]

Thanks Carl - Great Pic - maybe you can get an X-ray of the thing to see what is inside. But you need X,Y,Z, not just Z and X. I had visions of some kind of sophisticated chamber - not something filled with epoxy. Of course - it could still be a detector but so simple the inventors don't want it known. Amazing - No wonder Esteban says that the signal is of some 60 degrees in direction at times AND it doesn't work all the time. My PI machine works 100% as long as the batteries got juice.

For a filled in chamber the ions never really get into the "chamber" so then what is the thing detecting? Electrostatic detectors could work with a filled in chamber. This has three wires coming out so maybe there are 2 plates with a wire/plate in between that goes to the electronics. There could still be a real chamber in there and the epoxy is to prevent ambient air getting in and messing up the detection with water vapor, dirt, etc.

A chamber in my understanding of the American English is a hollow area. Research on ion chambers shows that they ARE hollow chambers filled with air, gas, or a vacuum with electrodes that are charged with a voltage to control the ions that are sent into the chamber.

I have done measurements on very subtle signals and some of them are very suceptable to environmental noise, like the sun or storms so I still would like to see more real tests on the Mineoro.

I am still hoping that the Mineoro is not some scam and so am looking for explainations. So much conflicting information!

So what do the Mineoro's cost. I hear prices of up to $8000. Is that right??

Goldfinder

[Esteban]

... on Mineoro's thread.

[FrankMD]

Was reading this past thread so I hope someone sees my comments. I have been studying the Minero info. It sounds like their unit would works by detecting the gold ions through galvanic (electrolyte action) and the key seems to be that the ions are carried by the earths electrosatic field, like a carrier back to the devices chamber. So the key is the electrostatic field and gold ions via galvanic/ electrolytic action.

Does this sound logical?

Frank

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by FrankMD

Was reading this past thread so I hope someone sees my comments. I have been studying the Minero info. It sounds like their unit would works by detecting the gold ions through galvanic (electrolyte action) and the key seems to be that the ions are carried by the earths electrosatic field, like a carrier back to the devices chamber. So the key is the electrostatic field and gold ions via galvanic/ electrolytic action.

Does this sound logical?

Frank

It sounds logical, but is not backed up by reality.

First, gold does not react galvanically in a sacrificial way, so buried gold will not produce gold ions. Second, even in cases where ions are produced underground, they will have to migrate to the surface and become airborne. Third, the airborne atoms will be affected far, far more by wind than the Earth's electrostatic field. Fourth, even if ions manage to reach a Mineoro device, it would take a drift tube apparatus to distinguish a gold ion from a potassium ion, something the Mineoros clearly do not have.

It is the hallmark of good advertising to make the impossible sound logical.

- Carl

[fmnotes]

HELLO IN ALL.
CONGRATULATING FOR THIS ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT.
FOR WANTING (FOR TEST REASON) I MANUFACTURE THIS LOCATOR Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector.
REQUEST DOES EXIST PCB?
CAN SOMEBODY SEND TO ME THE PCB?
fmnotes@yahoo.gr
I THANK.

[fmnotes]

Originally Posted by J_Player

The Circuit below is what Ivconic posted as a "working LRL". Since it has some standard electronic circuitry, I will give a brief overview for those who are interested. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

The basic purpose of the circuitry is to charge the dish positively, and sense minute electrical variations that are picked up on the antenna. The electrical variations sensed on the antenna are amplified and sent directly to the speaker. This means you can hear only variations in the audio range that are sensed on the antenna. The meter is wired to show the amplitude of the audio and non-audio signal variations. There are 4 controls which allow you to adjust the amount of charge on the dish, and to adjust the sensitivity and range that you are sensing on the antenna. This means that you are only measuring relative changes in the signal picked up, not the absolute amount of signal. However, if the controls are left at the same settings, you will see the relative change in signal from one sensing location to another, and from one point in time to another.

Starting with the U1 LM555 at the lower left, all the circuitry around this IC is an oscillator that supplies ac power to the Motorola-Lucent transformet (this is a transformer from a modem card). The secondary side of that transformer is connected so as to put a positive charge on the dish. The 100k potentiometer to the left of the 555 probably adjusts the oscillator frequency. If so, it will ultimately adjust how strong a charge is sent to the dish. This entire charging circuit and it's oscillator has it's own dedicated power supply which is isolated from the remaining sensing circuitry. This is most likely to avoid sending interference from the oscillator to the sensing circuits. I suppose the dish charging circuitry is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, but a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what voltage the dish is charged to, and if there is an ac frequency component on the dish.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuitry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish. All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into a 3-IC circuit whose output is sent to a differential amplifier.

Take note, that the differential amplifier has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is where the sensitivity and sensing range of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the next amplifier stage at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

A final note about the differential amplifier circuitry: The 3 ICs that initially sense the antenna signal are designed to create a differential signal from the single signal on the antenna. The lower 2 of these 3 ICs, may create a short time delay in addition to inverting the polarity of the signal, depending on the values of the components around the IC. If this is true then this delay can be thought of as a phase shift for any frequency that may be picked up on the antenna, and the degrees of shift would be defined by the frequency sensed. If this portion of the circuit was intended to act as a delay, then it may have a significant influence on the operation of the LRL.

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. This machine would be very lightweight, with the heaviest component being the 3 batteries and the meter. The electronics could probably be mounted inside 2 small aluminum boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes.

Electrical considerations revolve around the fact that you are measuring minute electrical variations near a charged dish. I would think it is important to wear non-static clothes (no synthetics -- 100% cotton), and keep any other objects that collect static charges away from the machine. Also, I would mount the dish-charging circuit in a seperate metal box from the sensor circuit. And ground both boxes to the sensor ground, while keeping the dish-charging circuit isolated from the box that it is mounted inside. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground.

HELLO.
I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
SUPREME US 028 SO22168 MOTOROLA-LUCENT.
IT HAS
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 45 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 75 OHMS +/- 10%

I HAVE FOUND FROM PROPORTIONAL MODEM BUT HAVE MORE OHM.
THAT IS TO SAY
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 90 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 100 OHMS +/- 10%
WORK RIGHTLY THE WON'T INSTRUMENT OF DETECTION?
I REQUEST YOU IF YOU KNOW I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
IF YOU KNOW SOME COMPANY THAT I CAN HIM BUY YOU SEND ME THE WEB PAGE.
ONCE AGAIN I THANK

[Alexismex]

I will post again in Geotech for THE SERIOUS IONS CHAMBERS experimenters not the fake low chambers....that you see in the mineoro products!!!! or in the remote sensing seccion !!!!

http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.h...tter%20Version

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by fmnotes

HELLO.
I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
SUPREME US 028 SO22168 MOTOROLA-LUCENT.
IT HAS
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 45 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 75 OHMS +/- 10%

I HAVE FOUND FROM PROPORTIONAL MODEM BUT HAVE MORE OHM.
THAT IS TO SAY
D.C. RESISTANCE: PRI. = 90 OHMS +/- 10% @ 20 C
................................. SEC. = 100 OHMS +/- 10%
WORK RIGHTLY THE WON'T INSTRUMENT OF DETECTION?
I REQUEST YOU IF YOU KNOW I REQUEST YOU HELP WITH.
IF YOU KNOW SOME COMPANY THAT I CAN HIM BUY YOU SEND ME THE WEB PAGE.
ONCE AGAIN I THANK

This is a circuit diagram that detects variations in the static charge near the antenna. There have been no reports of anyone finding treasure with this circuit, probably because it is not capable of locating treasure.
The circuit was designed and built by Ivconic as a spare time project to see what it would do. He concluded it does nothing except detect static charges in the air and electrical power lines.
See what Ivconic says about this circuit here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41129&postcount=71

The purpose of the Lucent transformer is to charge the dish at the antenna in a manner that is completely isolated from the sensing circuits while increasing the voltage. There is nothing critical here as long as the circuit is able to place a charge on the dish that measures at least 12 volts. If you want to use a different modem transformer, it should work ok. You may need to adjust the value of the resistor and capacitor between BC107 and the transformer to get the best performance. I would expect your modem transformer will not charge the dish to as high a voltage as the lucent transformer because your transformer is probably not stepping up the voltage as much at the secondary. You could try re-winding this transformer with approximately twice as many turns on the secondary as the primary. The charging circuit uses very little power, so the wire size is not so important. If you read the posts above, you will see Esteban suggested replacing the LM555 with a 7555 Cmos version. This is a good idea.

If you are successful at building this charge detector then you should be able to sense charges in the air and locate power wires that are hidden behind walls. You should also be able to locate sources of ions in the air and high voltage charged things such as an ion generator, or an old style monitor that uses a CRT to show the images. This sensor may be more sensitive than other charge detectors because it has a differential amp front end which can be adjusted for very sensitive detection before sending the signal to the later amplifier stages. I am guessing it is more sensitive to airborne charges than the Zahori design that Esteban posted below it in post #8.

Best wishes,
J_P

[fmnotes]

[quote=J_Player;125115]This is a circuit diagram that detects variations in the static charge near the antenna. There have been no reports of anyone finding treasure with this circuit, probably because it is not capable of locating treasure.
The circuit was designed and built by Ivconic as a spare time project to see what it would do. He concluded it does nothing except detect static charges in the air and electrical power lines.
See what Ivconic says about this circuit here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41129&postcount=71

The purpose of the Lucent transformer is to charge the dish at the antenna in a manner that is completely isolated from the sensing circuits while increasing the voltage. There is nothing critical here as long as the circuit is able to place a charge on the dish that measures at least 12 volts. If you want to use a different modem transformer, it should work ok. You may need to adjust the value of the resistor and capacitor between BC107 and the transformer to get the best performance. I would expect your modem transformer will not charge the dish to as high a voltage as the lucent transformer because your transformer is probably not stepping up the voltage as much at the secondary. You could try re-winding this transformer with approximately twice as many turns on the secondary as the primary. The charging circuit uses very little power, so the wire size is not so important. If you read the posts above, you will see Esteban suggested replacing the LM555 with a 7555 Cmos version. This is a good idea.

If you are successful at building this charge detector then you should be able to sense charges in the air and locate power wires that are hidden behind walls. You should also be able to locate sources of ions in the air and high voltage charged things such as an ion generator, or an old style monitor that uses a CRT to show the images. This sensor may be more sensitive than other charge detectors because it has a differential amp front end which can be adjusted for very sensitive detection before sending the signal to the later amplifier stages. I am guessing it is more sensitive to airborne charges than the Zahori design that Esteban posted below it in post #8.


I TOO MUCH THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP,
AND YOUR BY TIME TO BE DEALT WITH MY QUESTION.
I MADE THE PCB, IN FEW DAYS THEY WILL BE READY FOR TRIAL.
I WISH IT WORKS.

IF YOU KNOW SOME OTHER DRAWING OF DETECTOR OF DISTANCE, THAT COULD DETECTION TREASURE,
I REQUEST WITH BRIEFINGS.
ONCE AGAIN I THANK
Best wishes,

[fmnotes]

J_Player .I TOO MUCH THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP,
AND YOUR TIME TO BE DEALT WITH MY QUESTION.
I MADE THE PCB, IN FEW DAYS THEY WILL BE READY FOR TRIAL.
I WISH IT WORKS.

IF YOU KNOW SOME OTHER DRAWING OF DETECTOR OF DISTANCE, THAT COULD DETECTION TREASURE,
I REQUEST WITH BRIEFINGS.
ONCE AGAIN I THANK
Best wishes,

[taliesin]

Originally Posted by J_Player

The Circuit below is what Ivconic posted as a "working LRL". Since it has some standard electronic circuitry, I will give a brief overview for those who are interested. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

The basic purpose of the circuitry is to charge the dish positively, and sense minute electrical variations that are picked up on the antenna. The electrical variations sensed on the antenna are amplified and sent directly to the speaker. This means you can hear only variations in the audio range that are sensed on the antenna. The meter is wired to show the amplitude of the audio and non-audio signal variations. There are 4 controls which allow you to adjust the amount of charge on the dish, and to adjust the sensitivity and range that you are sensing on the antenna. This means that you are only measuring relative changes in the signal picked up, not the absolute amount of signal. However, if the controls are left at the same settings, you will see the relative change in signal from one sensing location to another, and from one point in time to another.

Starting with the U1 LM555 at the lower left, all the circuitry around this IC is an oscillator that supplies ac power to the Motorola-Lucent transformet (this is a transformer from a modem card). The secondary side of that transformer is connected so as to put a positive charge on the dish. The 100k potentiometer to the left of the 555 probably adjusts the oscillator frequency. If so, it will ultimately adjust how strong a charge is sent to the dish. This entire charging circuit and it's oscillator has it's own dedicated power supply which is isolated from the remaining sensing circuitry. This is most likely to avoid sending interference from the oscillator to the sensing circuits. I suppose the dish charging circuitry is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, but a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what voltage the dish is charged to, and if there is an ac frequency component on the dish.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuitry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish. All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into a 3-IC circuit whose output is sent to a differential amplifier.

Take note, that the differential amplifier has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is where the sensitivity and sensing range of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the next amplifier stage at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

A final note about the differential amplifier circuitry: The 3 ICs that initially sense the antenna signal are designed to create a differential signal from the single signal on the antenna. The lower 2 of these 3 ICs, may create a short time delay in addition to inverting the polarity of the signal, depending on the values of the components around the IC. If this is true then this delay can be thought of as a phase shift for any frequency that may be picked up on the antenna, and the degrees of shift would be defined by the frequency sensed. If this portion of the circuit was intended to act as a delay, then it may have a significant influence on the operation of the LRL.

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. This machine would be very lightweight, with the heaviest component being the 3 batteries and the meter. The electronics could probably be mounted inside 2 small aluminum boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes.

Electrical considerations revolve around the fact that you are measuring minute electrical variations near a charged dish. I would think it is important to wear non-static clothes (no synthetics -- 100% cotton), and keep any other objects that collect static charges away from the machine. Also, I would mount the dish-charging circuit in a seperate metal box from the sensor circuit. And ground both boxes to the sensor ground, while keeping the dish-charging circuit isolated from the box that it is mounted inside. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground.

you never know it might pick up radiation from japan