Demistifing ion chambers and snake oil

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

You try to give the illusion all Treasure hunters think alike. Sorry Carl, one size does not fit all.

Are you jealous, prejudice, or just your egotistical superiority complex shining through? Dell

Rant over?? Feeling better now??
Poor demented soul. Perhaps a bit of egotistical map dowsing will calm the troubled mind.

[hung]

Nothing extraordinary in the pictures.
It only shows that long time buried gold produce a strong air ionization which according to the right conditions are visible. The polaroid pictures shows that.
What about it? Mineoro claims this for eons. I know it's true. The pictures also..
Unfortunately the researcher in that site failed to conclude that it only happens to long time buried gold.
I always researched sites which people claimed to spot a fire ball on certain summer nights. The last one was in last july. The beeped and a gold vein was found.

[Dell Winders]

Max, I am in awe of your scientific knowledge, and appreciative of your willingness, and kind consideration of sharing, rather than dictating and showing disdain to those of us without formal education. Thank You, for that courtesy.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, but as you well know true Science is an open door of new discoveries, and revised theories. It often takes years, and sometimes lifetimes for new concepts and even small details to be proven, published, peer reviewed, and generally accepted.

Every thing you have said is within the rigid constraints and procedural limitations of Academia. You are safe among your peers for not thinking beyond the Academic box of past truths.

I have the impression you are more open minded to possibilities outside the realm of your formal education, so I will accept the risk of being mocked and ridculed and offer my own perspective to your present viewpoint;

The problem is...exciting a gold mass buried say 10 or 100 feet in the ground is not so easy task
and requires a lot of power -

That's true, but perhaps the power you suggest is not necessary.

I would suggest that we are metering an emenating "field" rising from a target element to the surface of land, or water, and measurable above the earth in mass to at least 3,000 feet above the surface of the earth.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Max

"What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?
Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?
If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?
"
yes, right !

Hypothesis:

I think he was talking about some plane-equipped with e.g. a sensible geiger counter and a
gamma-ray sensor...like the ones used in colorado in the 50's to find radioactive ores.
The kind of stuff used in geo surveys to find radioactive ore deposits,
but in this case the implicit reference was to a secondary radiation spot ( I think ).
If the above secondary radiation was revealed then a kind of "pinpointing" was possible
because fixed primary sources positions were known.
Unfortunately, this method don't work with gold items because :
- the propagation path (of radiations) between sources and target is not so sure to happen
- also if propagation of radiations occours no secondary radiation could be revealed in this case
(not from a plane or an hand-held instrument)
- also if propagation of trace elements occours and then revealed there is no way to detect gold
because this only evidence that there is a path (e.g. a water flow underground) but not that there
is anything else --> this is used to mark e.g. oil flows in gas/oil surveys.
One has to dig...so this is not remote sensing, detecting or discriminating but simply
a sampling for ores...wow ! Never see one sampling for treasures with a well-borer?

(I see one on TV - in Oak Island - Canada - but they know that there is a treasure below their
feet! and it works ! they find small pieces of gold in the bore rod ! )

So the conclusion is: can't use radioactivity to find gold items.

If Mineoro's or other LRL units work then is not by radioactivity (and not by ions - so whatever now?).

Best regards,
Max

Don't think so Max. Re-read Dell's post again.
"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits ..."
Why would he or anyone use a Geiger counter to look for Gold Deposits (unless per chance they are looking for Gold deposits heavily laced with radioactive material)?

It was only after the Gold deposit was roughly located (with undescribed instrumentation) that they would pollute the area with
low grade radioactive material. If he had been using a Geiger counter as you thought he was doing, then why bury low grade radioactive material at all? If the Geiger counter worked from the airplane, it would certainly work even better on the ground.

So no, it doesn't wash.

It would be a lot simpler, more benign to the environment and more energy efficient, if Dell would just use a lapis philosophorum to get his gold.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

<SNIP>
That's true, but perhaps the power you suggest is not necessary.

I would suggest that we are metering an emenating "field" rising from a target element to the surface of land, or water, and measurable above the earth in mass to at least 3,000 feet above the surface of the earth.

"What has been done, can be done" Dell

Dell, in nature there is no such thing as a "free lunch".

Where does the energy to support this field come from? If it is Telluric in nature, then how is it that the presumed "field" produced by the Gold or other precious metal, is different from the "fields" that would also be given off by other non-precious matter in the neighborhood?

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by hung

Nothing extraordinary in the pictures.
It only shows that long time buried gold produce a strong air ionization which according to the right conditions are visible. The polaroid pictures shows that.
What about it? Mineoro claims this for eons. I know it's true. The pictures also..
Unfortunately the researcher in that site failed to conclude that it only happens to long time buried gold.
I always researched sites which people claimed to spot a fire ball on certain summer nights. The last one was in last july. The beeped and a gold vein was found.

Ohh, so you are now saying that it is the air itself that is the source of ions rather than the ions being gold.

You should read up on the latest research on the source of ball lighting.

[Dell Winders]

Where does the energy to support this field come from? If it is Telluric in nature, then how is it that the presumed "field" produced by the Gold or other precious metal, is different from the "fields" that would also be given off by other non-precious matter in the neighborhood?

Sorry Rude-y, there can be no discussion with you. I don't see the respect, or the aptitude for you to think outside the academic box you have securely shackled yourself within.

I never said Gold, or any chemical element produced a "Field". I don't know if it does, or not. Nor, did I say the composition of the target "field" was any different from that of other Chemical elements. Dell

[Dell Winders]

"What kind of detecting apparatus was being used?
Since the gold deposit locations where unknown, how did you figure you had actually detected them?
If the unknown target locations are by definition -unknown- how do you calculate a distance from the known location to the unknown location?
"
yes, right !

Hypothesis:

Max, I'm sorry! I was wrong about you being able to think beyond the box. Your questions and hypothesis shows me you can't.

I do appreciate the information you generously shared. Dell

[michael]

Rudy and Max, I again thank for your info and too repeat my question, why don't you desire to answer me?
I repeat it as perhaps was ignored(# 25):
"one thing is brought up here: I want to ask from knowledgeable men about electronic ; Max, Rudy,.... Do you believe that old buried gold objects( not only gold, any kind of metal)
behave completely different than fresh ones? do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device? Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences? what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem, but experiences if not be standout, are not less important.
It's remarkable that I'm not going to advocate for any special producer or device, as I'm really one independent user."

Max, Rudy and other skeptics here! with courtesy, What have been your field experiences about what I pointed above?
Do you really want to get a useful conclusion or not just to show your college info and cast those in our teeth? of course all of the forum members want to learn more, no doubt, and I'm always a learner without any arrogation, but you as physic analyzers please benefit us at least me from your field experiences.
before this thread I tried to get a conclusion, but one radical and crabby skeptic who disliked to get result, shifted from answers, bustled and took discussion to dispute, to nowhere.

[Max]

Originally Posted by michael

Hi all, Thank you for your good points, especially Max, you're right about ion chambers.
like what happens in Atomic Absorption Detection for determining the elements in different materials. and it's obvious what is going in the claimed "ion chamber" in mineoro devices is not comparable to these technologies and.....
but one thing is brought up here: I want to ask from knowledgeable men about electronic ; Max, Rudy,....
Do you believe that old buried gold objects( not only gold, any kind of metal)
behave completely different than fresh ones? do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device? Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences? what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem, but experiences if not be standout, are not less important.
It's remarkable that I'm not going to advocate for any special producer or device, as I'm really one independent user.
but just decide at least take the discussion to a positive point to get a result or propound a subject to be observed much more.

Hi Michael,
I'll try to answer on the base of my experience in metal detecting. I have a little
knowledge of md compared to others in this forum but know that, sometimes, happen that
a target metal object buried in the ground for many years responds with an increased
signal than one can expect from a target of same composition, size, shape and depth.
This so called "halo" effect appears to be real and common to experience expecially
using vlf/ib machines (so CW -continuos wave detectors).

I don't know if it happens with gold - never experienced a halo effect with gold or
aluminium, but for sure can be present with brass(alloy), copper, silver and bronze(alloy).
Also iron seems to be a good candidate.
I'm sure that there are chemical interactions between the ground matrix and the metal
object if it's reactive interaction- so salts and other compounds can be produced in years all
around the target. I suppose also that the reactions can sometimes be partially reversed
having small granes of metal distribute in the surrounding matrix. This is a kind of
"migration" in the matrix.
The phenomenon is related to the ground composition and the kind of metal in the target -
so it's not a postulate that a metal, say bronze alloy, in any case, develop compounds
that migrate in the sorrounding matrix - it could simply oxidate in surface and not exibit
any halo effect.
Based on the composition one matrix can be "inhert" or "reactive" for a particular kind of
target. This inhertia is effectively frequent with gold - a very low reactivity metal that
only in particular conditions creates compounds (e.g. with HCN and CN groups or with mercury).
Anyway, this is elementar chemistry.

"do you believe a few (e.g. 12) medium size gold coins be detectable at 3.5 meters by one device?"
uhm seems impossible --> don't know how

"Do you know this kind of detector or have you heard about?
have you ever had such experiences?"
Never. The deepest kind of machine out there is magnetometer but won't works with gold.
Maybe a good PI can detect such target but under 1.5 meters in air. Don't know.
Example could be:
- assuming the area exposed to induction is about 10cmx10cm
- a pulse star II can detect a 10cmx10cm square metal plate at 110cm (43'') using 2mx2m coil (from datasheet)
"what I believe and before this have told; physic science or physic logics has it's own esteem,
but experiences if not be standout, are not less important."
Yes, it's true. I think not everything was already discovered by science and also that good metal detecting
is a practice related task.

In future we'll discover new facts about physics or other sciences.
This don't mean that so-called-alternative science are all right or bad or nothing but commercial.
But without scientific evidences one cannot say - so a faith act must be performed.

I losed my faith in advertising so far ago.

My point of view is: many stuff out there simply don't works but sells. That's common in our world..

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Don't think so Max. Re-read Dell's post again.
"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits ..."
Why would he or anyone use a Geiger counter to look for Gold Deposits (unless per chance they are looking for Gold deposits heavily laced with radioactive material)?

It was only after the Gold deposit was roughly located (with undescribed instrumentation) that they would pollute the area with
low grade radioactive material. If he had been using a Geiger counter as you thought he was doing, then why bury low grade radioactive material at all? If the Geiger counter worked from the airplane, it would certainly work even better on the ground.

So no, it doesn't wash.

It would be a lot simpler, more benign to the environment and more energy efficient, if Dell would just use a lapis philosophorum to get his gold.

Hi Rudy,
yes maybe I have to read twice. Anyway, I don't say I belive in this "aerial surveys for gold deposits".

Yes I think also lapis philosophorum will be the right choice...ehm
but then , to have enough, you must perform first an "aerial surveys for lead deposits".

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Max, I'm sorry! I was wrong about you being able to think beyond the box. Your questions and hypothesis shows me you can't.

I do appreciate the information you generously shared. Dell

Hi Dell,
you are welcome.

But beyond the box ? That box has a name -science-.

With it we can do anything we know in our modern world. Science is freedom.
Freedom of our mind, freedom from diseases, freedom from heavy work, freedom from pain
and one can continue for long time...has also drawbacks but it's another story.

Example:
If a snake bite your leg where are you going if not to the nearest hospital ?
or rely on someone claims , say alternative scientist, - maybe putting some sacre words on
the leg or some snake oil maybe- ?
I think you'll go to the hospital very quickly, and without asking if it is "academic boxed"
science there!
What I want to say is that, as rational human beings,
WE KNOW WHAT WE DO, WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DON'T - ANY OF US KNOWS
- BUT SOMETIMES ONE TAKES THE RISK OF BUYING SOMETHING PROMISING APPARATUS...

but most important science is truth.

I mean not all the truth in a specific time, anyway not, but it's truth.

You can experiment and find that what's inside e.g. a physics book is real and repeat it as
times as you want. It reflects what we know about our world and how it works.
Man takes control of his destiny when realized he can workaround some human limitations
using his knowledge.

Advertising, instead, is, by definition, a false message, because the only target is to
make industry sell products and earn money, not to explain exactly what the product is or
it can really do.

Commercial info and advertising are not truth.

I don't belive in them.

But I must remember that this isn't a philosopy forum and we need to talk about
technical facts here. It's "geotechnology" not "geofaith".
I'm not a preacher.


Best regards,
Max

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Sorry Rude-y, there can be no discussion with you. I don't see the respect, or the aptitude for you to think outside the academic box you have securely shackled yourself within.

I never said Gold, or any chemical element produced a "Field". I don't know if it does, or not. Nor, did I say the composition of the target "field" was any different from that of other Chemical elements. Dell

Candidate for the Dill Winders Crybaby thread

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Max, I'm sorry! I was wrong about you being able to think beyond the box. Your questions and hypothesis shows me you can't.

I do appreciate the information you generously shared. Dell

Candidate for the Dill Winders Crybaby thread

[okantex]

Hi Max

"Another issue is then the one related to IR detection. I've read a lot of posts regarding
IR detection using "leningrad 7" or something. Using an IR detector to find gold ???
"
I want to read that posts if it is possible.
can you give me links where you read posts.
and if you have documents about it can you mail me.
you have my mail address in your PM
thanks

[Max]

Originally Posted by okantex

Hi Max

"Another issue is then the one related to IR detection. I've read a lot of posts regarding
IR detection using "leningrad 7" or something. Using an IR detector to find gold ???
"
I want to read that posts if it is possible.
can you give me links where you read posts.
and if you have documents about it can you mail me.
you have my mail address in your PM
thanks

Hi Otantex,
I've seen your private message and replied. Take a look.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Don't think so Max. Re-read Dell's post again.
"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits ..."
Why would he or anyone use a Geiger counter to look for Gold Deposits (unless per chance they are looking for Gold deposits heavily laced with radioactive material)?

It was only after the Gold deposit was roughly located (with undescribed instrumentation) that they would pollute the area with
low grade radioactive material. If he had been using a Geiger counter as you thought he was doing, then why bury low grade radioactive material at all? If the Geiger counter worked from the airplane, it would certainly work even better on the ground.

So no, it doesn't wash.

It would be a lot simpler, more benign to the environment and more energy efficient, if Dell would just use a lapis philosophorum to get his gold.

Hi Rudy,
read it again...

when he sayd :

"In conducting aerial surveys for gold deposits before GPS was available,
the instrumentation we used would detect and record Gold deposits but this
would only bring us in the proximity of the Gold for a ground search. "

seems that the general idea is :
from a plane they detected something by remote but without explaining
what kind of "instrumentation" was used, you are right

but so then

"
To locate the Gold deposit(s) we would bury 25 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in
2-3 locations within the general proximity of the aerial location, then wait 3-4 weeks.
The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold,
and metered the same as Gold with our instruments."

"wait 3-4 weeks." ???
"The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold,
and metered the same as Gold with our instruments." ???

what ? so I think he was talking about uranium/radiation propagation in the gold ore,
assuming, by this strange method, gold ore can manifest some particular and
detectable radioactive behaviour, and he've just mispelled saying that
"uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the gold"
where would be gold take some radioactive behaviour...anyway
Why wait 3 or 4 weeks if not to last enough time for a kind of propagation ?
If so (::sarcasm: one could setpoint the "instrument" to the uranium level (yeah!)
and detect gold position---> because they metered the same...uhm
Or the uranium-ore mutate in something else ???...ehm seems again we have to do with the famous lapis.

So uranium ore seems have two purposes:
1. mark known positions in the search field
2. create some kind of reaction with gold then they can discover exact gold ore position
comparing uranium-ore and unknown signals in the field

Because, if only 1. was needed (no GPS era), why to wait for 3-4 weeks ???

Are the 3-4 weeks that do ring a little bell in my head ah ah ah don't know you but for me this remote sensing thread is funny man!

Dell, where are you ? What do you mean for:

"To locate the Gold deposit(s) we would bury 25 pounds of low grade Uranium ore in
2-3 locations within the general proximity of the aerial location, then wait 3-4 weeks.
The Uranium ore appeared to take on the characteristics of the Gold,
and metered the same as Gold with our instruments."

Please explain better than this. Want to know exactly how you do these surveys.

and then

"
When we returned to the aera after an alloted time, we would detect the known locations
of the Uranium ore, as well as the unknown location of the Gold deposit, and by
calculating the distances between the known targets, and the unknown target we
could isolate and pinpoint the location of the Gold deposit.
"
pinpointing:
well this is clear enough and make sense, assuming the other stuff above,
but first one have to average locate the gold ore deposit,
that's what I can't realize how-to here.

Best regards,
Max

[okantex]

I do respect
but not agree with you

[okantex]

I do respect
but not agree with you

[okantex]

I do respect
but not agree with you

[michael]

Hi Max, thank you for your reasonable answer.
you mentioned don't know such detector be able to detect 12 gold coins in medium size.
Do you know OKM products or have experienced them? do you believe these detectors be able to do this job (e.g. exp series)? we know these devices just sense fields above ground very carefully.
I myself own a Rover C and have made many tests and had many expeditions
without any positive results for gold (master of non-magnetizing metals),and once have witnessed one medium size copper pot at 4.5 meters depth couldn't be detected by exp 4000 but Lorenze deepmax X3 detected that old buried object (of course not much old).
but with my high wonder, I saw one of my compatriots have detected some gold objects by his exp.
one of them is 12 gold coins in medium size at 340 Cm depth. or one small gold sheet(23 Cm) at 210 Cm depth.
before this I never believed these detector work for gold. now my opinion has been changed about them.
What can be scientific justification for this? can be one thing except to field shaped around gold?
please focus on this subject.

[Carl-NC]

Michael,

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of being able to detect a handful of gold coins, or a 23cm sheet, at 2-3+ meters. Ferinstance, I suspect that an ordinary induction metal detector could be carefully made to do this in an air test, using extremely high power and critically-balanced coils. Whether this detector would still work with mineralized ground conditions is another matter.

It is also possible that the act of burial creates a local anomaly in the soil's magnetic signature, so with the right instrument (a detailed mapping mag, ferinstance) the burial spot would show up. This would happen regardless of what might have been buried, so technically it is not "detecting the gold." There are probably other possibilities.

If you have tested your Rover C on gold targets and got no positive results, then I suspect it is incapable of detecting gold targets. But maybe it is capable of detecting other signatures, like disturbed soil. Have you tried using it to map an area with known soil disturbances?

- Carl

[Max]

Originally Posted by michael

Hi Max, thank you for your reasonable answer.
you mentioned don't know such detector be able to detect 12 gold coins in medium size.
Do you know OKM products or have experienced them? do you believe these detectors be able to do this job (e.g. exp series)? we know these devices just sense fields above ground very carefully.
I myself own a Rover C and have made many tests and had many expeditions
without any positive results for gold (master of non-magnetizing metals),and once have witnessed one medium size copper pot at 4.5 meters depth couldn't be detected by exp 4000 but Lorenze deepmax X3 detected that old buried object (of course not much old).
but with my high wonder, I saw one of my compatriots have detected some gold objects by his exp.
one of them is 12 gold coins in medium size at 340 Cm depth. or one small gold sheet(23 Cm) at 210 Cm depth.
before this I never believed these detector work for gold. now my opinion has been changed about them.
What can be scientific justification for this? can be one thing except to field shaped around gold?
please focus on this subject.

Hi Michael,
I never had experience with OKM products and can't say about.

For sure you have my attention when talking about of detecting 12 medium size gold coins
so deep underground (3.4 mt). I don't know if it's possible or not and how. Maybe, as
Carl suggest, some anomaly take place in these conditions.

"What can be scientific justification for this? can be one thing except to field shaped around gold?
please focus on this subject."

uhm

can be...can be... a lot of things there

I don't know Rover C. Can't say what its main detection system is supposed to do. But I know
Lorenz machines and like them.

The anomaly hypotesis seems a good starting point.
I know that in south america some ths use a kind of rod to sample the ground for small red/orange
fragments mixed with the soil. That is: it's common in some areas to find impurities where a hole
was dug in the ground. These impurities are a kind of markers that say "hey! the treasure is just
below your boots". Seems stupid things but it's true. There is ceramic mixed in the soil there.

This is absolutely true. They find treasures this way. This pits are, infact, graves.

When excavation was performed some particles contaminate the soil and also covering procedures
maked layers pattern different from sorrounding ground. This disturbance can create an hot spot
in the local magnetic permeability also. Buried stuff and soil movements can affect fieldlines.
Also electrostatic field may be affected - but don't know how to map this in a reliable way.
For sure not with a leaf electrometer (or a Tesla bla-bla ion chamber).
As many here know, ceramic could have magnetic behaviour - everyone can experiment with a sensible
pulse induction detector and some red bricks fragments.

No Meissner experiment required here, everyone can do:
I've build up some PIs and all of these sounds loud with red bricks. I own also small test fragments
gently donated by a friend - also ceramic pieces, very old, that sound like bricks.

Now, some strange ideas:
Say then we have a sensible magnetometer and we are making a map of the Eart's magnetic
field using a very strict pattern, say a grid with one sample every 10cm or so, in our field.
We maybe, like in other surveys, like e.g. resistivity metering, can end up with a
detailed map of "anomalies" in the field underground.
But in this case the procedure must be so systematic that very few people
would do...so if the mag was instead in on a semovent robot e.g. a small tank-like,
, with a motion reference system, well things can be more relaxing for the end user.
Simple application of the principle is used in commercial cut-grass-robots---not the ones
made in china i mean, but the serious japan made ones.

It's not like when a mag is used e.g. in underwater exploration (location of ship wrecks)
where one beep signals that a strong magnetic anomaly (e.g. a cannon) was revealed over
the ground threshold level. Here we must take care of details measuring so little spots
in the mag field that anything else but mapping is required.
One thing to take into account there will be that a precise mag for the purpose need to be
, maybe, a proton precession type. So an extra duty energy source is required.
The advantage is that a hi resolution can be obtained increasing the sampling rate - so an
intelligent device could switch in hi-res mode when something strange is detected.

So , also without discrimination, one can make hypothesis based on the shape of the anomaly,
like happens in GPR explorations.

But step back. Also T/R detectors can find similar anomalies out there. I mean cavity and/or
mag field abnormals spots. In this case one can't say nothing about what's there before
excavation.

So, the real problem is: in both cases, one must excavate to discriminate really.

Then no "real" discrimination.
---end of ideas

If I have to dig for some meters (hey!) getting an heartbreak , I want be sure there's not any
stupid paint can, that's what I say. I'm too young for getting one digging pits.

Best regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Since many years, since the old forum, several times I was post about the anomalities. I call this phenomenom "electric field around conductive items buried for long time".

I'm not sure if science has interest in it of if the science can reproduce all this "microenviromental". Sure I found old buried metal (copper, bronze, silver and gold) with base open system, microvoltmeter. Also I know aluminium is very neutral, not at all, great quantity is another thing.

Round objects better!!! I conclude that the round objects "don't looses" the electric field easily regarding the form, the same effect you see in spheres, wich acquires charge and don't loose easily. This is in concordance with science.

The distance I achieve with microvoltmeter open base system was 80 meters for silver/bronze horse-chair adorns buried at 70 cm. Two green copper batteries clips, 40 meters, buried no more 10 cm depth, the both the same day. This was the first time I can conclude that the phenomenom is electric.

The illustrated report I can write regarding this phenomenom is very extense. At this time I don't have interest in any large report, since I'm not scientific, so this means no credit toward me, so, I'm not a reference. Also if I write a large report, this will stay "buried" for new threads and new members re-ask an re-discuss all the time. Great effort for nothing!

How I can demonstrate that the phenomenom is electric? Simple: if i shortcircuit the field, signal vanishes:

[michael]

Carl,
I haven't tested Rover C on gold target as they claim these detectors can detect at least 10 Cm x 10 Cm x 30 Cm dimensions full of metal not hollow. then it's impossible to prepare such gold test target, but about iron yes, I did and after 2 years of bury I got result.
my wonder is about those really small gold targets despite the size that are even much smaller than the least size producer assigns.
about soil disturbances you are right, one example I have done is a well that the valve was about 1 meters underground and before I have put it in this forum and other forum now I again put it here (Well Scanned); interesting point is geographical directions; as you see the real form of well is seen just in N/S direction whereas in S/W direction from the same well you see as segmented form.
the showed depth was right.
but Carl, as my compatriot tells these detectors shows every anomaly in its' place very accurately i.e. he hasn't found golds via a cavity diagnosis when he sees the screen 100% can diagnose if it's metal or mineral or other thing. and he says Supersensor do discrimination 100% reliable.
He even says once he's found a shovel at 4 meters by Rover C deluxe. you know this is impossible for best metal detectors.
I myself have detected one iron target and software shows the depth at 3-4 meters. as it's in a parking lot not possible to dig there, but in field and desert still no real target.
Can be other than emanating field to ground surface?
now I'm somehow encouraged about my Rover C and I have decision to combine with my FG80 given signals just have to wait for spring.
I think OKM products detect field perpendicularly and mineoro do this job horizontally.
one other thing; last week we injected radio frequencies in soil and scanned ground by Rover C the results were somehow interesting. If you're interested in it, I'll put results here.
(about the test target buried 2 years ago)

Max, thanks for your comments, but one thing: I have one PI made here and it never beeps with bricks, ceramics or other things. just beeps for metals, but isn't much powerful. about discrimination the answer has given above ( By Supersensor).
I'm gathering my compatriot comments in Q & A form in one pdf file and put it here. it's a good subject for think about some hidden reals.