Demistifing ion chambers and snake oil

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

What a pity. Those Skeptics who invoke Science, hypocritically rebuke Science in the name of Skepticism, and exhibit themselves as examples of,

So...we’re gonna get a big whoppin' spiel about how science has claimed your wonderful do-nothing devices work, eh?

[Max]

Hi all,
this seems interesting (2002 stuff anyway):

http://www.minerals.csiro.au/main/pg2.asp?id=36060

Take a look. At least, even if it cookes someone, ehm ...this is science



Best regards,
Max

[michael]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Unfortunately your compatriot's opinion of the OKM devices cannot be taken seriously. He believes that the Lectra actually works, and even says "I believe Lectra search has been the best device for me... If weather be good, Lectra works as best device." Enough said.

Qiaozhi,I personally don't like such detectors( Electroscopes or Lectrasearch) and have mentioned before in this forum and in attached file and have no decision to advocate them or producers.
But I'm sure he tells all truth and there is no reason for him to scatter some lies and despite my verdict about Lectra I respected his opinion and experiences, the job that seems you can't do. in spite of my previous idea about you, it appears you are narrow-minded. I didn't put the file to start some absurd disputes, put it in purpose of rationally discussing instead of shoot to door and wall.
one thing I forgot to put in comments is that he has bought both models of OKM long range detectors and wrote for me he never got result of first model(Bionic Alpha) and is waiting for spring to test the second model (Bionic 01 ). now why to lie about Lectra? for making money? or other thing? Oh, you can speculate miraculously, find reason at least for me.
why does he tell against this kind of LRD?
When you encountered to dead end to explain, at least behave rationally.

Have you yourself ever used Lectra or not, express so that it's unacceptable based on your theoretical info?
Here is the place I figure out again; experiences (objectives) are supreme to theories ( subjective), however you try to belittle comments, bash or pull the debate to nowhere. If you can't accept one thing, don't deny it. to accept mistakes bravely is dignity.
Qiaozhi, it would be better for you to learn to respect people than electronic which close your mind. instead of putting absurd emoticons: Enough seen.

Max, Thank you for your patiently and reasonably explanations I appreciate those.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by michael

Qiaozhi,I personally don't like such detectors( Electroscopes or Lectrasearch) and have mentioned before in this forum and in attached file and have no decision to advocate them or producers.
But I'm sure he tells all truth and there is no reason for him to scatter some lies and despite my verdict about Lectra I respected his opinion and experiences, the job that seems you can't do. in spite of my previous idea about you, it appears you are narrow-minded. I didn't put the file to start some absurd disputes, put it in purpose of rationally discussing instead of shoot to door and wall.
one thing I forgot to put in comments is that he has bought both models of OKM long range detectors and wrote for me he never got result of first model(Bionic Alpha) and is waiting for spring to test the second model (Bionic 01 ). now why to lie about Lectra? for making money? or other thing? Oh, you can speculate miraculously, find reason at least for me.
why does he tell against this kind of LRD?
When you encountered to dead end to explain, at least behave rationally.

Have you yourself ever used Lectra or not, express so that it's unacceptable based on your theoretical info?
Here is the place I figure out again; experiences (objectives) are supreme to theories ( subjective), however you try to belittle comments, bash or pull the debate to nowhere. If you can't accept one thing, don't deny it. to accept mistakes bravely is dignity.
Qiaozhi, it would be better for you to learn to respect people than electronic which close your mind. instead of putting absurd emoticons: Enough seen.

Max, Thank you for your patiently and reasonably explanations I appreciate those.

As you said yourself - "I personally don't like such detectors( Electroscopes or Lectrasearch) and have mentioned before in this forum and in attached file and have no decision to advocate them or producers." - so we are in agreement. I am just mystified that you are able to trust the opinion of someone who believes that these fake devices are capable of detecting anything, apart from money in other people's pockets. If that is narrow minded, then so be it. By the way, I didn't say he was lying, just misguided.

[robby_h]

Dell,
"Actually Robby, my products were permitted to advertise in Australia". Past tense?
Nobody is allowed to advertise these products here. There was a guy in Victoria and one in NSW (Ranger) advertising these things on EBAY recently but I reckon this will be stopped. It's becoming a bit hard to police though.
You can buy a "lucky rabbit's foot" key chain, crystals to put under you pillow and an open circuit L/R thingy hooked to a chain with an insulated link and a metal frame pyramid to sit under though! No Oz MD retailer stocks or advertises any LRL type devices at all.

Individuals here have found literally thousands of nuggets with a MD. The LRL type devices I've seen have found none and in one area that has since produced enough nuggets to make anyone happy including at least one 80 ounce nugget at 12" that MDs before the SD2000 couldn't hear because of ground noise. The LRL guy walked over and around the 80-ounce nugget and all the others for two days.
This begs the question, if a MD is required to verify the presence of a nugget after your thingy beeps then would you be still willing to put a hole down in our rock hard ground (and where?) if the MD couldn't hear a signal?

"One small mining company would send me photos of Gem stones they were recovering located with a Frequency Discriminator. Another customer visiting Australia sent me a photo of a 14 oz gold nugget he found."
Really? "Frequency Discriminator"?? And past tense? A one-off in an area where one would expect such a find and was a metal detector involved in the nugget's recovery? Was this claim verified? Do you have any idea of how quickly this news would travel thru the goldfields? You would never keep up with demand if this was true.

Esteban,
"Ask the same question to Mr. Fisher, Mr. Garrett, Mr. Etc.: why they don't became rich searching for jar full of coins?"

At least Mr Fisher (and others) have been actively involved in well documented recovery of treasure and it is clear that their MD designs work and actually show the presence of a target and indicate where to dig. None of this... "I got a beep that shows conclusively that there is treasure at 100 feet somewhere under a mountain or somewhere in a cave" and walk off claiming this is proof.

"Are they trying another systems? In 20 years, no great advances in classical MD they achieve, maybe in design, in target shower, in "hot" search head, in bla, bla, etc. You can reduce each day the noise in op amps, but the next 20 years you can't achieve significative advances in depth."
At least we can clearly show why it is so hard to improve on present designs.

"Imagine this: today you buy a "new detector", "very modern", manufactured by famous brand, but you comprobe that your old detector of "X" brand is better that you new purchases. So, are the manufacturer to defraud you? Why the manufacturer don't search in another way?"
At least they can be shown to actually work and don't rely on Karma or humidity or whether you poke your tongue out to the left or right!!! By the way, if you pick the middle of winter for your visa then you will be assured of bone-dry air in most of our richer goldfields so humidity won't bother you at all.

Dell,
We aren't asking for much. We buy a car and it gets us from A to B. We are just asking for similar, reasonable proof that these LRL devices work.
It's very simple (or should be). If I sent one back to you because I thought it was faulty then how would you test it? Tell us so we can conduct the same real and meaningfull tests for ourselves. Just give us what you would expect from the manufacturer of any other device.
Your claims and arguments just don't make any sense to anyone in the real world. We can't use conventional wisdom, proven science or anything that could be remotely mistaken for logic when debating this subject as you find this totally unacceptable. It seems that sceptics are obviously disadvantaged by having active frontal lobes and you appear to be asking us to disable these so that we can reason as you do!

Still puzzled but soon to be lobotomised,
Rob.

[Max]

Hi all,
though serves nothing, I've another scenario for the Dobler's experiments.

Though very schematic (and poor artistic):

Fig.1 describes materials used
Fig.2 describes the test materials hitted by natural gamma-ray
Fig.3 describes free electrons generation in Al strip

What's important are Fig.4 and Fig.5.

Fig.4 is my first hypotesis on white strips generation:
gamma-rays generates free electrons, then density of these are higher on sharp edges.
Total potential is obviously zero, because for each free electron there is an Al "ion",
well not actually a ion, because it's a metal matrix and electrons can move easy anyway,
but , energetic exchange happen between hitting gamma-ray and electrons that are in.
Ionization occours in the matrix because Al atoms can't mantain their external electrons
bounded, and free electrons accumulate over the surface.
But also if total potential is zero , charge density on surface is different and higher
on sharp edges: it can act as an electric lens (like old crt deflectors or so called Braun's
tubes).
If any charged particle (not gamma-ray) say beta or alpha pass enough near the "deflector"
it will be repelled or actracted. If it is so, a "concentration" appear near the bare edges
due to the higher hit number of particles and emulsion in the photographic plate.
Here, like i said in previous post, gamma-rays only don't make the white strips appear,
but a secondary radiation (beta or alpha or both) must be present to explain what's going
on.

Fig.5 is my second hypothesis that, though not in contrast with the first, can explain how
white strips generation could happen ONLY with incident gamma-rays.
Here electric charges are not important.
This behaviour was discovered by Roentgen, during his X-Rays studies. He used photographic
plates (what a coincidence!) in black lightproof paper and radioactive ores to stimulate
photographic reations.
He found that alpha, beta and gamma-rays can create photoreactions directly as also catode
ray tubes (Roentgen effect, 1895).

X-rays can be generated by "hits" of beta (hi speed electrons) and gamma (hi freq/energy
photons) - alpha particles play a minor role here becouse they haven't (normally) enough
energy to give and can be stopped by very thin layers of metal - this is the case.

X-rays can easy be detected by photographic process too. Just remember that low energy X-rays
can be deflected easy by metal shields much better than gamma-rays that are not and can pass
through. This behaviour is related to frequency --> higher frequency = higher energy = higher
penetration as Max Plank discovered , E=hf, where E is energy of radiation quanta, h Plank's
constant, and f frequency of radiation.

So focus on beta and gamma:

1. Beta, where present, can produce X-rays by "hitting" metallic plates (what a coincidence,
again!) e.g. tungsten (and many other kind of metals) at specific angles.
So, this is what really happens in old vacuum x-rays tubes, using an hi electric field to
accelerate electrons and simulate beta-emission by electrons flowing in.
And what really happens when hi energy electrons hit the plates and light "phospores"
(e.g. Zinc Sulphide) of very old CRT tube (another coincidence ???) --> X-ray emission here.

2. Gamma-rays act completely different: they can pass through also big thickness metal blocks,
instead of beta and alpha, and they can also generate x-rays as secondary radiations. So, if
gamma-rays only are involved (Fig.5) most of them pass through the aluminium strip and emulsion
and plate and don't produce any visible reaction (black on plate - flat response) or when "hits"
happen energy loss produce x-ray emission that in the inner part of the Aluminium strip are
shielded and can't reach the photo-graphic emulsion, bounching back, that is: a flat response
in both cases.

But on the bare and sharp edges ???

Well, most gamma-rays continue passing through all the things there, but when hits happen x-ray
generated as secondary radiation can reach the emulsion, most of, outer of the aluminium strip,
then be adsorbed (hi probable) and revealing a reaction ---> white strips

So, also with ONLY gamma-rays the phenomenon could be explained.

Anyway, first and second hypothesis could verify both at the same time, if not only gamma are
involved (e.g. not only Rn gas / gamma emitter present). And also strong beta emission ONLY could
generate similar results.

As I said, this stuff serves nothing, but can demistify strange asserts on water emission of energy.

Best regards,
Max

[Delbert grady]

Those pear shaped red blobs at the end of the Aluminium strips are probably caused by Dicky Spy's

[Max]

Originally Posted by Delbert grady

Those pear shaped red blobs at the end of the Aluminium strips are probably caused by Dicky Spy's

Hi Delbert,

Yes, maybe. But I like other kind of pears out there!

Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by robby_h

It seems that sceptics are obviously disadvantaged by having active frontal lobes and you appear to be asking us to disable these so that we can reason as you do!

Still puzzled but soon to be lobotomised,
Rob.

Brilliant!

Also a great example of an oxymoron: "...you appear to be asking us to disable these so that we can reason as you do!"
How can you reason when you've had a lobotomy? That's the dichotomy.

"If you wish to know the mind of a man, listen to his words."

[Carl-NC]

Perhaps it's time to add a stupefied drooling smilie...

[Max]

Originally Posted by robby_h

Dell,
"Actually Robby, my products were permitted to advertise in Australia". Past tense?
Nobody is allowed to advertise these products here. There was a guy in Victoria and one in NSW (Ranger) advertising these things on EBAY recently but I reckon this will be stopped. It's becoming a bit hard to police though.
You can buy a "lucky rabbit's foot" key chain, crystals to put under you pillow and an open circuit L/R thingy hooked to a chain with an insulated link and a metal frame pyramid to sit under though! No Oz MD retailer stocks or advertises any LRL type devices at all.

Individuals here have found literally thousands of nuggets with a MD. The LRL type devices I've seen have found none and in one area that has since produced enough nuggets to make anyone happy including at least one 80 ounce nugget at 12" that MDs before the SD2000 couldn't hear because of ground noise. The LRL guy walked over and around the 80-ounce nugget and all the others for two days.
This begs the question, if a MD is required to verify the presence of a nugget after your thingy beeps then would you be still willing to put a hole down in our rock hard ground (and where?) if the MD couldn't hear a signal?

"One small mining company would send me photos of Gem stones they were recovering located with a Frequency Discriminator. Another customer visiting Australia sent me a photo of a 14 oz gold nugget he found."
Really? "Frequency Discriminator"?? And past tense? A one-off in an area where one would expect such a find and was a metal detector involved in the nugget's recovery? Was this claim verified? Do you have any idea of how quickly this news would travel thru the goldfields? You would never keep up with demand if this was true.

Esteban,
"Ask the same question to Mr. Fisher, Mr. Garrett, Mr. Etc.: why they don't became rich searching for jar full of coins?"

At least Mr Fisher (and others) have been actively involved in well documented recovery of treasure and it is clear that their MD designs work and actually show the presence of a target and indicate where to dig. None of this... "I got a beep that shows conclusively that there is treasure at 100 feet somewhere under a mountain or somewhere in a cave" and walk off claiming this is proof.

"Are they trying another systems? In 20 years, no great advances in classical MD they achieve, maybe in design, in target shower, in "hot" search head, in bla, bla, etc. You can reduce each day the noise in op amps, but the next 20 years you can't achieve significative advances in depth."
At least we can clearly show why it is so hard to improve on present designs.

"Imagine this: today you buy a "new detector", "very modern", manufactured by famous brand, but you comprobe that your old detector of "X" brand is better that you new purchases. So, are the manufacturer to defraud you? Why the manufacturer don't search in another way?"
At least they can be shown to actually work and don't rely on Karma or humidity or whether you poke your tongue out to the left or right!!! By the way, if you pick the middle of winter for your visa then you will be assured of bone-dry air in most of our richer goldfields so humidity won't bother you at all.

Dell,
We aren't asking for much. We buy a car and it gets us from A to B. We are just asking for similar, reasonable proof that these LRL devices work.
It's very simple (or should be). If I sent one back to you because I thought it was faulty then how would you test it? Tell us so we can conduct the same real and meaningfull tests for ourselves. Just give us what you would expect from the manufacturer of any other device.
Your claims and arguments just don't make any sense to anyone in the real world. We can't use conventional wisdom, proven science or anything that could be remotely mistaken for logic when debating this subject as you find this totally unacceptable. It seems that sceptics are obviously disadvantaged by having active frontal lobes and you appear to be asking us to disable these so that we can reason as you do!

Still puzzled but soon to be lobotomised,
Rob.

Hi Robby,

Wow
"Still puzzled but soon to be lobotomised" I think it would be a solution for the
"desperate TH"...the one having such an lrl "device" that walk around for days discovering
nothing, I mean.
Well, he could continue mechanically to walk around with that pistol in his hand
...after lobotomy, being also smily, but it's another story.

I think that a promising anomaly detector can't be only an electrometer, but something like
the OKMs with other stuff inside. Just, don't know how to mix say information from a mag, an
electrometer, an ULF detector and a standard metal detector etc to have practical results.

I think that first signal considered is from mag, then md and then others, but not sure.

I think also that the software inside the box consider "weights" on these signals , giving
major "weight" to what's more reliable like mag and md signals. Think also here some linear
problem approach is involved - like loading a space shuttle - to "optimize" visual
indication. When the optimum threashold is reached a target indication appears, meaning that
(I think) at least 2 signals match on a supposed target.

But what about induced anomalies ? TX stage ?

Seems that OKMs hasn't enough power inside to make such "anomalies" happen. So, it's another
, unless one consider the md the transmitter part , usefulness receiver ???
How can it discriminate stuff ??? With VLF ??? At meters underground ???

Because they claim it can...uhm they claim also there is a GPR ! (hey!)
I'm puzzled too. But my wallet is happy because I don't want to buy one.
Prefer staying happy without such a "lrl", full of stuff wallet and my entire frontal lobes.

Maybe I'll do not enrich this way, with my TH hobby, but for sure, I'll do not enrich some
exotic plumbers. That's what I say.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Perhaps it's time to add a stupefied drooling smilie...

Hi Carl,

I found it on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drooling

"
Drooling (also known as ptyalism) is when saliva flows outside the mouth. Drooling is generally caused by excess production of saliva, inability to retain saliva within the mouth, or problems with swallowing.
Some people with drooling problems are at increased risk of inhaling saliva, food, or fluids into the lungs. However, this is unlikely to cause harm, unless the body's normal reflex mechanisms (such as gagging and coughing) are also impaired."

What's happened ???
Does any LRL makes this kind of effects also ???

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi all,
I think I need to experiment with some so called long range locator...BUT...
don't want to spend thousands of dollars for some PVC pipes and few transistor...
plus some strange do nothing component...

Because I'm skeptic, but want to test some real circuit before convincing myself that all this stuff is completely fake.

So
Does anyone know a good schematic of an LRL ?
I mean the most interesting one in electronic terms...not relais or something
connected to a single battery lead...but a "seriuos" (well it's hard I know)
electronic circuit. Something that seems do something, not just draining the
battery...something "special" (hey!) but please not with CA3130 or similar stuff...or zinc sulphide...or ir leds...or poor man ion chamber...
can't digest anymore.

Something simple anyway, don't
have much time to experiment at now.

Which is the best schematic of that stuff out there ??? A zahori-like ?
An ULF or ELF detector ?
Some strange psicoactive device ???

Any suggestion welcome.

Best regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Just this not use IR leds (modulated, range for a coin, near 25 m if the IR is lenses incorporated), no 3130, nothing, no spend much battery, but the motor actuates on your muscles and help you for to find the metal!

And if you vomit all the time, can to tread it!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi all,
I think I need to experiment with some so called long range locator...BUT...
don't want to spend thousands of dollars for some PVC pipes and few transistor...
plus some strange do nothing component...

Because I'm skeptic, but want to test some real circuit before convincing myself that all this stuff is completely fake.

So
Does anyone know a good schematic of an LRL ?
I mean the most interesting one in electronic terms...not relais or something
connected to a single battery lead...but a "seriuos" (well it's hard I know)
electronic circuit. Something that seems do something, not just draining the
battery...something "special" (hey!) but please not with CA3130 or similar stuff...or zinc sulphide...or ir leds...or poor man ion chamber...
can't digest anymore.

Something simple anyway, don't
have much time to experiment at now.

Which is the best schematic of that stuff out there ??? A zahori-like ?
An ULF or ELF detector ?
Some strange psicoactive device ???

Any suggestion welcome.

Best regards,
Max

Have a look at the link provided by Sean in the Coils Forum (Mobius Coil).
You might want to build the quadrafilar coil with 45 degree helical twist. There's also some verbage about the OFP 111.2 Orgone Field Pulser (version three - no less) Inside this device there's an Aether Vortex chamber that looks quite similar to the ion chamber in the Mineoro FG80. Maybe you could connect this AV chamber to the Mobius coil, add a touch of amplification and viola, you might possibly (if the wind's in the right direction, the humidity is not too low, and there's a 'R' in the month) detect some of that Continually Replenished Alternating Potential (C.R.A.P.) that's emitted by longtime buried gold.

Happy LRLing...

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Have a look at the link provided by Sean in the Coils Forum (Mobius Coil).
You might want to build the quadrafilar coil with 45 degree helical twist. There's also some verbage about the OFP 111.2 Orgone Field Pulser (version three - no less) Inside this device there's an Aether Vortex chamber that looks quite similar to the ion chamber in the Mineoro FG80. Maybe you could connect this AV chamber to the Mobius coil, add a touch of amplification and viola, you might possibly (if the wind's in the right direction, the humidity is not too low, and there's a 'R' in the month) detect some of that Continually Replenished Alternating Potential (C.R.A.P.) that's emitted by longtime buried gold.

Happy LRLing...

Good grief! Max, make sure that in the process of experimentation
that you don't accidentally catapult yourself into a different space-time
continuum.

I have heard of such things happening to LRL users when they accidentally
cross the ionic field lines during an unaspicious moment.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Just this not use IR leds (modulated, range for a coin, near 25 m if the IR is lenses incorporated), no 3130, nothing, no spend much battery, but the motor actuates on your muscles and help you for to find the metal!

And if you vomit all the time, can to tread it!

Hi Esteban,
thanks for the strange apparatus there. Yeah, the termocoupling between different metals
generates these kind of small potential there. It's like a radar (hey!), I mean a rotating
antenna...not exact the same...but a strange zahori.
Because the antenna rotates , or not ?
If not, the motor spin torque acts on muscles only , as a gyro?

Seems that if only gyroscopic effect is involved here, this is a kind of enhanced
zahory-wood.
The principle is quite simple: stabilizing all the rod from external oscillations (e.g.
the ones produced by the operator steps in the field or involontary movements of small
magnitude)

I think I can experiment with my old radios antennae...maybe some dc motor from the
garbage in my garage...only thing missed is the gold mass...ehm

would use lead...have a lot...

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi Qiaozhi and Rudy,

"you might possibly (if the wind's in the right direction, the humidity is not too
low, and there's a 'R' in the month) detect some of that
Continually Replenished Alternating Potential (C.R.A.P.)
that's emitted by longtime buried gold. "

Yes, maybe....I think someone would call the police...if I try to exit for TH with
this kind of stuff in my hand...thinking I'm a free lobotomized too !

"Max, make sure that in the process of experimentation
that you don't accidentally catapult yourself into a different space-time
continuum.

I have heard of such things happening to LRL users when they accidentally
cross the ionic field lines during an unaspicious moment."

Uhm, seems probable...like in the Philadelphya experiment...wow...
maybe I'll encounter Elvis on the way.
Don't know why even a simple zahori project...cause me

this...stomach stimulus...



Finally, I've realized that I can't lrling because the steady position required in LRL is not
possible to obtain vomiting all the time.


Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Max

I think I can experiment with my old radios antennae...maybe some dc motor from the
garbage in my garage...only thing missed is the gold mass...ehm

would use lead...have a lot...

Best regards,
Max

Missing the gold mass?? No problem. Just fire up the olde LRL and in a matter of minutes you'll have more olde gold than you've ever imagined.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Missing the gold mass?? No problem. Just fire up the olde LRL and in a matter of minutes you'll have more olde gold than you've ever imagined.

Hi Qiaozhi,
yes, but I haven't one ...so i have to fuse something bracelet...ring...etc
I mean...when I'll become completely crazy.

Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi Qiaozhi,
yes, but I haven't one ...so i have to fuse something bracelet...ring...etc
I mean...when I'll become completely crazy.

Best regards,
Max

Ahh!
You have a Catch 22 situation. What to do?

[Max]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Ahh!
You have a Catch 22 situation. What to do?

Hi Qiaozhi,
what's "catch 22" ???
Do you mean a logic paradox ?
Well, noooo
I think there are too strange things on LRL (when someone finds stuff , yeah! or why someone buy one of these electronic miracles...) to me to create such a paradox.

I think I must leave my gold items as I have at now...instead of making a gold mass...ehm...for the "device".

I've just said that I'll do that when (mean if) I'll become completely crazy.
LRL is only disturbing me...with a lot of

Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

[quote=Max;50142]what's "catch 22" ???/quote]
Catch-22 is a novel by the American author Joseph Heller.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22
In general use it refers to a situation with self-contradictory circular logic.

[Max]

[quote=Qiaozhi;50157]

Originally Posted by Max

what's "catch 22" ???/quote]
Catch-22 is a novel by the American author Joseph Heller.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22
In general use it refers to a situation with self-contradictory circular logic.

Hi Qiaozhi,
I've heard something about at hi-school but never read it and just don't remember at now who is Heller and his work. I'll take a look if I'll find on local bookstores. Seems interesting.

Best regards,
Max

[Cossaro]

think you (and some other) spend too much time over this ionic-tamagoci. (2 rows are enough... if you have no doubts) Best Regards.