LRL working principle solved !

[Funfinder]

Good news for you all, the speculation why and how (our actual "working") LRLs are reacting on distant metal targets seems to be solved.


I found the solution-key yesterday while watching a report about RFID chips or exactly RFID active and passive components:

As you may know RFID-tags or chips don't need internal power source.

Like hidden metal objects they are working as antenna, reflector or EM-field consumers (through eddy-currents or energy-absorption).

The "living" RFID circuit contains a high sensitive field-strengh sensor so it recognises if the RFID chips antenna (resonance-circle)
is consuming energy from the radiated EM-field.
This is comparable with no battery diode-receiver (crystal-radios) that are using a high-gain antenna. If the antenna is good enough
those can suck so much AM-frequency energy from the field even
an audible noise by speaker is possible, not just ear-phone.

RFID-chips with high-gain antenna (size up to 5x5cm) work even
at a range up to 5m distance.



Now what situation do we have exactly with LRL?!


A person stands on a flat site, sourrounded by a wide spectrum EM-field. His LRL detector turns slowly around in this environment until a certain position is reached where the signal-trigger circuit comes in action.

What causes this trigger to switch or beep etc.?

Of course a distortion of the EM-field. If the LRL contains two coils those are acting like 2 directional magnetic antennas and if those became imbalanced (because of the field-distortion) at a certain spectrum the LRL recognises this.

The underground metal object disturbs the usual EM-field because it either reflects or consumes the EM-field and so leads to a distortion.


Important:
We have 2 different levels of "surface" - ground and air that also interacts. But the through metal objects distorted ground-EM field has the possibility to affect and distort the EM-field above the ground, too, and especially very significant if the detector is located just 1-1.5m above ground. And the usual EM-Field if distorted may also lead to distort the vertical static power field!



btw. here we have the opportunity for interesting test - how strong the LRL reacts if its located and used just 0.5m above the floor compared to 1.5m above.



Moisture and mineralic stones weakens the field and "reception" or reflection quality depending on their strength. Even the surface of the ground already reflects a huge range of the EM-spectrum, but it really depends and those waves also have a magnetical dimension.


The steel-frame of a building works different as antenna or reflector for EM-waves than a buried steel object.


Since we know already that the buried or hidden metal objects either reflects, consumes or distorts the sourrounding EM-field energy the only question remains:

What EM-spectrum works most sensitive and powerful for detection.

This also regards the magnetical pulse fields at certain frequencies.


We know an usual buried metal object on its own will not radiate / transmit any certain energy (as long as its not radioactive or highly heated).

Otherwise it would be simple to detect 'cause a huge 5kg gold-"nugget" would transmit over miles his "here I am"-signal and a sensitive directional receiver could locate it easily.

But the question is:
does a certain alloy or kind of metal starts to create harmonics or resonances waves if there is a powerful enough radio-source connected, even if that metal-object buried underground.

Because this will be the final question:

At what EM-field band the passive induction imbalance LRL detector does react and is this a direct result through distortion, reflection or consumation from the buried metal object (comparable with the usual magnetometer field detection methods)

OR

does a certain EM-field frequency or a larger range of that lead to special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization etc. affecting certain kind of metal (especially after long time remaining under ground) which the LRL picks up.

If that observation about the LRL that it has lost 50% of sensitivity after analog TV station transmission stop ist true, it could lead to the conclusion that either the LRL receives the imbalance of the VHF frequency spectrum or - and this is much more likely - the TV VHF signals have been used by the buried metal objects for converting that energy into a different level or frequency.


Finding this out is very simple by taking a closer look what the LRL exactly detects or what sourrounding EM-field radiation exists in a certain country.

It also would be possible to irradiate a certain kind of metal object with all kind of different frequencies and at the same time testing with a broandband receiver if this metal "creates" any special harmonics that are strong enough for long range detection.



Perhaps Brazil has a totally different shape of frequency-spectrum that is needed to "inject" enough energy into the buried object until enough detectable converted energy or distortion has been created and thats why the Mineoro just works there.




If we take a closer look at those Zahori circuits those are simple static-imbalance-detectors with directional antennas but I doubt just only by distorted static fields we could find buried metal, especially from a distance.

There also has to be the magnetical component of the EM-field distorted (static is highvoltage direct current DC, EM-field is alternating current AC) so the LRL with its directional magnetical-loop antennas can pinpoint into the correct location.


But I hope now its finally clear what gots detected is the imbalance of EM-field regarding its intensity or its distortion at a certain frequency or area level!


PS
And perhaps the explanation why dowsing rods sometimes work also is imbalance of the usual static field.
If there is a very strong thunderstorm in the mountains it even can lift up your hairs because of the very strong static field.
Perhaps in an equal kind the dowsing rod user feels somehow the static field difference and the very sensitive balanced
rod gots lifted or teared down by the changed static field, if the underground fieldcharge gots distorted by metal or water etc.

[Dell Winders]

HOORAY! After all these years of my telling this forum, somebody here finally figured out that electronic LRL's, or hand held L-Rods are detecting stronger emanating Magnetic fields surrounding the target, and not the target itself. My customers have known this for the past 20 years.

For the critics it's been an exercise iof expression of the dumb & dumber, which I am sure they will continue

Congratulations Fun finder, you have a few more things to learn about LRL, but I applaud your thinking. Keep up the good works! Dell

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

Good news for you all, the speculation why and how (our actual "working") LRLs are reacting on distant metal targets seems to be solved.

I found the solution-key yesterday while watching a report about RFID chips or exactly RFID active and passive components:
As you may know RFID-tags or chips don't need internal power source.
Like hidden metal objects they are working as antenna, reflector or EM-field consumers (through eddy-currents or energy-absorption).

The "living" RFID circuit contains a high sensitive field-strengh sensor so it recognises if the RFID chips antenna (resonance-circle)
is consuming energy from the radiated EM-field.
This is comparable with no battery diode-receiver (crystal-radios) that are using a high-gain antenna. If the antenna is good enough
those can suck so much AM-frequency energy from the field even
an audible noise by speaker is possible, not just ear-phone.

RFID-chips with high-gain antenna (size up to 5x5cm) work even
at a range up to 5m distance.
Now what situation do we have exactly with LRL?!

A person stands on a flat site, sourrounded by a wide spectrum EM-field. His LRL detector turns slowly around in this environment until a certain position is reached where the signal-trigger circuit comes in action.
What causes this trigger to switch or beep etc.?

Of course a distortion of the EM-field. If the LRL contains two coils those are acting like 2 directional magnetic antennas and if those became imbalanced (because of the field-distortion) at a certain spectrum the LRL recognises this.

The underground metal object disturbs the usual EM-field because it either reflects or consumes the EM-field and so leads to a distortion.
Important:
We have 2 different levels of "surface" - ground and air that also interacts. But the through metal objects distorted ground-EM field has the possibility to affect and distort the EM-field above the ground, too, and especially very significant if the detector is located just 1-1.5m above ground. And the usual EM-Field if distorted may also lead to distort the vertical static power field!

btw. here we have the opportunity for interesting test - how strong the LRL reacts if its located and used just 0.5m above the floor compared to 1.5m above.

Moisture and mineralic stones weakens the field and "reception" or reflection quality depending on their strength. Even the surface of the ground already reflects a huge range of the EM-spectrum, but it really depends and those waves also have a magnetical dimension.
The steel-frame of a building works different as antenna or reflector for EM-waves than a buried steel object.

Since we know already that the buried or hidden metal objects either reflects, consumes or distorts the sourrounding EM-field energy the only question remains:

What EM-spectrum works most sensitive and powerful for detection.
This also regards the magnetical pulse fields at certain frequencies.
We know an usual buried metal object on its own will not radiate / transmit any certain energy (as long as its not radioactive or highly heated).
Otherwise it would be simple to detect 'cause a huge 5kg gold-"nugget" would transmit over miles his "here I am"-signal and a sensitive directional receiver could locate it easily.

But the question is:
does a certain alloy or kind of metal starts to create harmonics or resonances waves if there is a powerful enough radio-source connected, even if that metal-object buried underground.
Because this will be the final question:

At what EM-field band the passive induction imbalance LRL detector does react and is this a direct result through distortion, reflection or consumation from the buried metal object (comparable with the usual magnetometer field detection methods)
OR
does a certain EM-field frequency or a larger range of that lead to special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization etc. affecting certain kind of metal (especially after long time remaining under ground) which the LRL picks up.

If that observation about the LRL that it has lost 50% of sensitivity after analog TV station transmission stop ist true, it could lead to the conclusion that either the LRL receives the imbalance of the VHF frequency spectrum or - and this is much more likely - the TV VHF signals have been used by the buried metal objects for converting that energy into a different level or frequency.

Finding this out is very simple by taking a closer look what the LRL exactly detects or what sourrounding EM-field radiation exists in a certain country.
It also would be possible to irradiate a certain kind of metal object with all kind of different frequencies and at the same time testing with a broandband receiver if this metal "creates" any special harmonics that are strong enough for long range detection.

Perhaps Brazil has a totally different shape of frequency-spectrum that is needed to "inject" enough energy into the buried object until enough detectable converted energy or distortion has been created and thats why the Mineoro just works there.

If we take a closer look at those Zahori circuits those are simple static-imbalance-detectors with directional antennas but I doubt just only by distorted static fields we could find buried metal, especially from a distance.
There also has to be the magnetical component of the EM-field distorted (static is highvoltage direct current DC, EM-field is alternating current AC) so the LRL with its directional magnetical-loop antennas can pinpoint into the correct location.

But I hope now its finally clear what gots detected is the imbalance of EM-field regarding its intensity or its distortion at a certain frequency or area level!

PS
And perhaps the explanation why dowsing rods sometimes work also is imbalance of the usual static field.
If there is a very strong thunderstorm in the mountains it even can lift up your hairs because of the very strong static field.
Perhaps in an equal kind the dowsing rod user feels somehow the static field difference and the very sensitive balanced
rod gots lifted or teared down by the changed static field, if the underground fieldcharge gots distorted by metal or water etc.

Hi Funfinder,
I don't see any evidence in your post that you solved the reason why LRLs are reacting to distant metal targets.
What I see in this post is more speculation.

1. There is no evidence that any LRL works on the principle of RFID tags.
Buried metal artifacts are not comparable with no-battery diode-receiver (crystal-radios) that are using a high-gain antenna.
Buried metals do not have circuitry which collects power from the VLF signals of a pistol type LRL.
In fact, there is no evidence that buried metals absorb any measurable power from a hand-held VLF transmitter coil.
The only exception is when the coil is placed within less than a meter of the buried metal.
Then we can expect it will consume enough power from the coil to induce measurable eddy currents within the buried metal object.
At longer distances there are no electronics in the buried metal object such as we find in an RFID tag to tune the broadcast at 5 meters.
Any theory that buried metals consume power from a VLF coil at a long distance is only a presumption which has not been shown to be true by experimental tests.
Can you tell us where we can find some tests that show how much power the buried metal is consuming from a distant hand-held transmitter circuit?

2. "What causes this trigger to switch or beep etc.? Of course a distortion of the EM-field".
The evidence we have seen so far shows this is not true.
From the field test reports and videos, we see there are often metal objects which can distort the EM field around a pistol type LRL.
Things such as metal detectors and iron shovels nearby, and metal parts in shoes, or maybe glasses worn by the user of the LRL.
Yet the videos show the LRL does not trigger when the coils are moving in relation to these objects, even when they are in closer proximity than the buried target.
This tells us it is not true that these LRLs are triggering because of distortion or reflection of the EM field.

3. "Since we know already that the buried or hidden metal objects either reflects, consumes or distorts the sourrounding EM-field energy..."
We don't know this.
What we know about the ground relation to VLF transmissions is well documented by geologists and radio engineers.
What we know is VLF waves penetrate the ground to depths which depend on the conductivity of the soil and constituents of the ground, as well as the frequency of the VLF transmitter.
For the frequencies used in pistol type locators (50 KHz to 180 KHz), we can expect the VLF to penetrate a few meters into the soil, and deeper at lower frequencies.
We also know that when the soil is wet and highly mineralized, the penetration is less, and the ground is absorbing more of the RF energy.
From geologists who routinely measure and map things under the ground, we learn that small objects such as a buried ring are not detectable using the VLF absorption or reflection methods in this frequency range.
However, a pistol type detector is not used in the same manner as a geologist's VLF loop.
But we still have the problem that well-documented cases show pistol type detectors do not trigger when the coils come close to where nearby metal objects are expected to distort the EM field.
These nearby objects include steel shovels, brass buckles, aluminum detector shafts, steel electronic enclosures, metal battery parts, gold-plated circuit parts inside metal detectors, steel used inside metal detectors for potentiometers and switches, aluminum capacitor casings, copper wires and searchcoils, etc.

4. "...special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization etc. affecting certain kind of metal (especially after long time remaining under ground) which the LRL picks up".
There is no evidence to show there are any "special harmonics, vibrations, resonance, frequency-up-or down-convertion, shift in polarization" being emitted from buried metals when a VLF transmitter is in the vicinity.
This is only speculation with no experimental evidence to measure anything of this kind coming from the buried metal.

5. "Finding this out is very simple by taking a closer look what the LRL exactly detects or what sourrounding EM-field radiation exists in a certain country".
I agree -- Finding out is not very hard for a person who uses appropriate instruments to take measurements.
But finding out what the LRL is detecting has not been done by builders of the LRLs.
Perhaps the people who build these LRLs are not capable of determining what their LRLs are detecting.
Nobody else can do it, because they are secret circuits.

6. "I hope now its finally clear what gots detected is the imbalance of EM-field regarding its intensity or its distortion at a certain frequency or area level!"
No, this is not clear.
I read reports from users of Greek LRLs who posted that their locators do not respond to iron or magnets.
Yet we know that iron and magnets will distort the field of a VLF coil more than jewelry metals and coin metals.
These reports are spread through this forum in different threads.

There are many videos which show detection is not made by imbalance of EM field regarding its intensity or distortion.
See this video of the Crypton OBMD-1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYsNyva8BBs
See where G-sani walks past a metal detector several times which has aluminum, copper and iron metal in large amounts.
All these metals are known to distort the field of a VLF coil.
But we see there is no triggering when the locator is pointed at this metal detector several times.
What we see is it only beeps consistently when it is pointed at a smaller lead bullet buried at some meters distance.

See also the many recent videos Morgan sent here: http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=18145
You will see many cases where his PDK does not trigger when the coil is pointed toward metal things such as shovels and metal detectors.
I can remember his locators only triggered when they were put very close to these other metals, much closer than the target detection ranges he was showing.

From what I read, It appears you have not solved the working principle of pistol type LRLs.
It appears you presented more speculations which have not been verified to be true.
And some of your speculations have been shown to be false by numerous videos and field reports from users of these locators.

But it seems you have also suggested that someone should test to find out what their locator is detecting (#5 above).
I think this is a good idea.
I believe you will find it is not detecting buried metal, but something different which has nothing to do with eddy currents or RF harmonics emitting from the chunk of buried metal.


Best Wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

I believe you will find it is not detecting buried metal, but something different which has nothing to do with eddy currents or RF harmonics emitting from the chunk of buried metal.

Jplayer, every once in awhile in your twisted sense of logic you come up with some half truths. I've been telling this forum for years that LRL's are NOT detecting buried metals. Heck, it's even included in my instruction manual.

Every time you post, you demonstrate your ignorance of the subject. Dell

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Jplayer, every once in awhile in your twisted sense of logic you come up with some half truths. I've been telling this forum for years that LRL's are NOT detecting buried metals. Heck, it's even included in my instruction manual.

Every time you post, you demonstrate your ignorance of the subject. Dell

Hi Dell,
You got it wrong.
You quoted what I believe. This is not the same as a fact which can be proven.

For the record, I am not ignorant of what pseudoscience is.
I have read plenty of pseudoscience from ignorant people, as well as hungscience from delusional people.
I am very well aware of the difference between pseudoscience and real science.
The invention of alleged "signal lines" BS, for example.
I have no problem determining the difference between facts which can be proven and fake propaganda designed to trick people into sending money for over-priced non-working electronic junk.


Best Wishes,
J_P

[Dave J.]

Funfunder was being serious? I thought he was mocking LRL'ers.

--Dave J.

[Dell Winders]

Psuedo Science? I have never seen a Science that was faked. Only, pretend (fake} scientist who frequent this forum with their own style of BS. Take my advice and relate LRL to the detection of Magnetic Fields, NOT metals, and you won't have to be a BELIEVER when you understand the facts. Dell

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Psuedo Science? I have never seen a Science that was faked. Only, pretend (fake} scientist who frequent this forum with their own style of BS. Take my advice and relate LRL to the detection of Magnetic Fields, NOT metals, and you won't have to be a BELIEVER when you understand the facts. Dell

Hi Dell,
The equipment being discussed above is mostly VLF transmitter and receiver sets which are fully electronic without swiveling rods.
The magnetic facts of VLF coils are very well studied and documented by geologists and radio engineers.
There is an enormous amount of factual data which describes the magnetic properties for these kinds of coils can be read online at a number of university physics websites and electronics websites.
The Geotech forum has one of the best repositories for VLF coils of this nature I have seen online, and also has quite a bit of cutting edge VLF magnetic technology being developed which has not been found in the commercial market yet.
The VLF transmitter and receiver coils being developed at the Geotech forum are actually about twice the size of the VLF coils discussed above, and work with the same magnetic fields and wave propagation.
Yet I see no mention of "signal lines" or detecting from 5 meter as if an RFID tag was attached to a coin or jewelry from magnetic effects of hand-held VLF coils.
There is no mention of signal lines in the Geotech forum or any other authoritative website that shows known facts about magnetic fields which these coils detect.
University and geotechnical websites which explain the physics of magnetic fields interacting with the ground do not make any reference to "signal lines".
They explain other mechanisms whereby a VLF coil can help to locate things that are under the ground.
The only magnetic field they describe interacting with buried things is a magnetic field which is found in ferrous ores and sands, or metals which may have become magnetized by the earth's field.
They say these ferrous things can concentrate the earth's field to show an anomaly where the field strength is different than a place which has a different ferrous content.
And they also talk about a magnetic field which can be induced in buried ferrous and non-ferrous ores and sands, as well as metals by using a VLF coil.
They explain the conductive and magnetic properties of buried objects will influence a VLF transmission in a way that can be measured, so we can also find an anomaly if we have a suitable instrument to sample and measure the VLF absorption over some terrain. Of course this does not tell us directly whether there are any local magnetic anomalies.
The local magnetic anomalies are easy to measure with a magnetometer, and are usually associated with an anomaly of mineralized sands or ores or rocks which have magnetic properties.
None of these sources say that a buried coin or ring will create a magnetic anomaly that we can measure.
Nor did any LRL enthusiast show how how we can measure any magnetic anomaly coming from the location around buried nonferrous metal either.

Since none of these sources show a magnetic field anomaly exists on it's own around a non-ferrous buried coin as you are talking about, why don't you tell us what causes it to generate, and how strong we can expect to measure it with a magnetometer to verify it is a fact rather than some made up BS?


Best Wishes,
J_P

[Funfinder]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

HOORAY! After all these years of my telling this forum, somebody here finally figured out that electronic LRL's, or hand held L-Rods are detecting stronger emanating Magnetic fields surrounding the target, and not the target itself. My customers have known this for the past 20 years.

For the critics it's been an exercise iof expression of the dumb & dumber, which I am sure they will continue

Congratulations Fun finder, you have a few more things to learn about LRL, but I applaud your thinking. Keep up the good works! Dell

Hi Dell,

sorry but I got in contact with this forum for the first time in 2010
so the whole LRL topic was new for me and so far I haven't read
or seen your studies and information here in this forum.

This has also to do with the whole conflict, dispute and controversy
of this whole "LRL-special-task".

Personally I haven't tested your devices so far but as far as
the info from Carl Moreland who knows well enough about
reliable working electronic and circuits-construction and many
disappointed user-reviews including critical disassembling and
finding out that the inside parts "logically can not detect anything"
stuff there it seems that those detectors don't work as reliable
as usual MDs BUT thoses should work reliable.


But seems we now have the breakthrough concerning really
reliable working LRLs by Morgan, Geo and especially Andreas
from Europe.

The Goldguns telescopic antennas for shure are not for the magnetical energy
but the directional loop antennas are.

Anyway thx Dell for your congratulations and I hope this thread
will lead to more real useful information about how LRL really exactly work.




@ Dave J.
> Funfunder was being serious? I thought he was mocking LRL'ers.

No, I never mockered about the whole LRL-Topic but I hate
unscientifical work. I even had a hard time with J_Player because I
did defend the theoretical possibility of LRL detection at a time
he was extremly skeptical this could be an option at all.

And seems I was absolutly on the right track if the new developments
of Morgan, Geo and Andreas turns out to be really true working!


But it has to be on a scientifical basis by evidence and empirical observation and recreatable test results!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence

btw. I heard the new high capacity SD-cards already are also using
quantum-effect driven technology for permanently set the micro-data-storage-parts to 0 or 1.

Anyway, we all want proven facts and no pseudo-science or believes!

A device that doesn't work reliable is like a condom with a hole
or like a car that stops every few miles or kilometers! Almost worthless!

[Funfinder]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Funfinder,
(...)
Best Wishes,
J_P

Hi J_P

thank you for the huge effort you made but sorry this is really a
very very long reply with many many many unsolved questions!

I can't answer many of them yet.
But it's very good you give a critical and controvers answer
so we can find out what points are more or less clear / unclear
or important.

Personally I think the used circuits (and the simple versions of
them are free available) are very simple if it comes to the
detection circuits so it also is very simple to find out what
is detected there at all!

And of course sometimes just the imbalance gets detected,
we also can see this at the small Crypton diagram.

And while EM-"radiation" is polarized most of the time vertically
horizontally or at some angle the magnetical energy is "directly"
like a pulsing beam.

Enough for the moment, perhaps I will check out what of your
questions can be answered somehow but for the moment
I wanna leave this working principle describtion as it is.

greetings

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

HOORAY! After all these years of my telling this forum, somebody here finally figured out that electronic LRL's, or hand held L-Rods are detecting stronger emanating Magnetic fields surrounding the target, and not the target itself. My customers have known this for the past 20 years.

For the critics it's been an exercise iof expression of the dumb & dumber, which I am sure they will continue

Congratulations Fun finder, you have a few more things to learn about LRL, but I applaud your thinking. Keep up the good works! Dell

Yes indeed Dell it's the field we detect as I explained after much frustration that an underground stream has a charge. The fields are "scalar" meaning they have magnitude and direction. Maybe now they will start to understand how the other secret LRL's are working. I think of them as similar to buying grapes at the supermarket. It is best to try before you buy, as with these detectors they try/test the field and compare this to a transmitted signal like navigation signals.

I think they are all good for LRL above ground or close to the surface but they need more work on the ground penetrating side.

rgds

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dedevil

The fields are "scalar" meaning they have magnitude and direction.

This is totally incorrect.
Scalar fields have a single number assigned to each point in the field. Whereas a vector field has a magnitude and direction assigned to each point in the field. You are confusing the two definitions.
Temperature is an example of a scalar measurement.

[Dell Winders]

The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water. Dell

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

This is totally incorrect.
Scalar fields have a single number assigned to each point in the field. Whereas a vector field has a magnitude and direction assigned to each point in the field. You are confusing the two definitions.
Temperature is an example of a scalar measurement.

There the same thing just depends on what it is relative to.
eg looking from out in space the atmosphere can have numbers assigned to the area.
Back on ground the referance point is inside the scalar field and therefor can have magnitude and direction which is relative to the observers reference point within the field.
rgds

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water. Dell

I'll have to disagree with that one Dell. If this is so then the majority of our streams would be running n-s or s-n. The magnetic effect is fairly constant, an overall effect of the overall direction of particles in the earth. The change you see when a compass goes slightly off track over water is static gravity. I find it best to think of the earth as a multiplate capacitor with the centre as the -ve plate. It all gets confusing when you switch from conventional current to electron flow so i stick to electron flow.
The water moves from hillside stream to ocean via gravity. So what is gravity? Simply it's mass/charge, the more the mass the more the charge, and so although a stream and the oceans are both water the oceans have a bigger charge and therefor the streams with a lesser charge are attracted to the ocean. And there is a type of charge flow happening which is what distorts a compass over a river.

Think of what is a compass? It's a solid piece of metal with it's charges arranged to point in one direction. When placed on the ground it shows the overall direction of all the other substances on earth and when bought near a stream will deflect due to the electrified charges of the stream.

Have you ever tried this one; When divining a river with Lrods, stop where the L rods cross over, then stick one of them into the ground and hold the other out. It will point in the direction that the water is taking ( it's path of least resistance ) to the ocean.

Amazing that the French revolution was started by arguements on this subject.

rgds

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by J_Player

The Geotech forum has one of the best repositories for VLF coils of this nature I have seen online, and also has quite a bit of cutting edge VLF magnetic technology being developed which has not been found in the commercial market yet.

Yes because they are using navagational signals as part of the detection.
What would happen if you sold someone a detector and then the navigational signal was shut down? I think you would want to grap your sales commission and run!

rgds

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by Dedevil

I'll have to disagree with that one Dell. If this is so then the majority of our streams would be running n-s or s-n. The magnetic effect is fairly constant, an overall effect of the overall direction of particles in the earth. The change you see when a compass goes slightly off track over water is static gravity. I find it best to think of the earth as a multiplate capacitor with the centre as the -ve plate. It all gets confusing when you switch from conventional current to electron flow so i stick to electron flow.
The water moves from hillside stream to ocean via gravity. So what is gravity? Simply it's mass/charge, the more the mass the more the charge, and so although a stream and the oceans are both water the oceans have a bigger charge and therefor the streams with a lesser charge are attracted to the ocean. And there is a type of charge flow happening which is what distorts a compass over a river.

Think of what is a compass? It's a solid piece of metal with it's charges arranged to point in one direction. When placed on the ground it shows the overall direction of all the other substances on earth and when bought near a stream will deflect due to the electrified charges of the stream.

Have you ever tried this one; When divining a river with Lrods, stop where the L rods cross over, then stick one of them into the ground and hold the other out. It will point in the direction that the water is taking ( it's path of least resistance ) to the ocean.

Amazing that the French revolution was started by arguements on this subject.

rgds

The effect is known as little g which is differnt to BIG G

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dedevil

There the same thing just depends on what it is relative to.
eg looking from out in space the atmosphere can have numbers assigned to the area.
Back on ground the referance point is inside the scalar field and therefor can have magnitude and direction which is relative to the observers reference point within the field.
rgds

Wrong!
Scalar measurements are the same for all observers.

[Dell Winders]

Along with with moving warer Iron, is another strong concentrator of the Earth's magnetic field. Dell

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

The Earth's Magnetic field will collect (concentrate) around, and follow even slightly moving water. Dell

Does this mean we should look for our compasses to shift and follow the direction of this concentrated magnetic field when we walk near the edge of a stream?
Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?


Best Wishes,
J_P

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Along with with moving warer Iron, is another strong concentrator of the Earth's magnetic field. Dell

The moving iron is moving under gravitational pull not the Earths magnetic field. Otherwise the streams would run n-s or s-n. It is still under the earths magnetic field and if in a stagnent pool may swing n-s but your instruments are giving you an incorrect reading making you conclude the magnetic field is being changed. Think about it Dell.
They call it a magnetic field abnormality but it is actually not. It is a gravity abnormality.
It is called this so it is not confused with a big G "gravity" scan which is taken vertically and shows heavy and light materials under the overall effect of the Big G field.

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Does this mean we should look for our compasses to shift and follow the direction of this concentrated magnetic field when we walk near the edge of a stream?
Can we turn on a garden hose and watch the compass needle turn as we move the hose closer to the compass, and move the hose to point different directions above the compass?


Best Wishes,

J_P

YES Simple experiment! But you do not use your everyday compass. You use a ?? I quess I would call it a de tuned compass. To cancel the earths magnetic effect ( in a mechanical way ) take one compass and physically bond it to another compass in the opposite direction, with glue. Now suspend the two needles just as you would with a normal compass. But to see the dowsings effects at work you need to clip a tiny piece of one of the needles. So you still have a compass, just a very weak one. If you move this towards a stream you will see deflection of the needle towards the flow in a horizontal direction. But it wont work vertically! This a different system again.

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Wrong!
Scalar measurements are the same for all observers.

Take for example being in outer space and looking at the atmosphere of the earth. Give it a scale of 1-10 and take a refernce point of 5. You can divide the atmosphere up into numbers from 1-10 take it to binary and give the numbers colors. As an observer from outerspace you see a colorfull picture. Now go to ground level and stand in a 1 zone and the observed colors are completly differnt. Two different observers and two differnt pictures.

It's simply relative!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dedevil

Take for example being in outer space and looking at the atmosphere of the earth. Give it a scale of 1-10 and take a refernce point of 5. You can divide the atmosphere up into numbers from 1-10 take it to binary and give the numbers colors. As an observer from outerspace you see a colorfull picture. Now go to ground level and stand in a 1 zone and the observed colors are completly differnt. Two different observers and two differnt pictures.

It's simply relative!

Clearly you do not understand the difference between a scalar and a vector.

[Dedevil]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Clearly you do not understand the difference between a scalar and a vector.

Yes actually i do understand and think you have not one bit of understanding of the theory of relativiity.

TRY going back to school with JP. BABY!