Carl MFD article ,5KHZ frequency ?

[aft_72005]

Hi to carl and all
In MFD article ,carl used 5khz frequency for gold prospecting .
Some of other commercials almost also using this frequency.
My questions now, can anybody tell me where are come 5 khz ?
How it calculated?
why don’t using 10 khz or 15khz or other range of frequency?
What is relation between this frequency with materials resonance frequency ?
Anybody know This relation formula ?
Regards.

[J_Player]

People who sell long range locators believe this is the correct frequency for gold. They determined this frequency by experimentation as near as I have been able to determine. Some people use lower frequencies, and say they are at some harmonic of the gold frequency that also works. Nobody has shown any physical property of gold that is linked to this 5000 Hz that I know of. It appears that many have adopted this frequency after following the earlier experimenters, but many use different frequencies which they claim work better.

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

While we are talking about MFD, I foud another LRL that looks very similar to some of the devices Carl shows in his project section. This Sumachine appears to be a copy of the Dell Omnitron or an older Vernell model, but with a LCD display and Nimh batteries. This company was started in 2004. http://www.sumachine.com/shs300.pdf

I guess I never noticed them before because they are not actively advertising their equupment, and their main web page shows they are in the business of supplying wholesale metal and plastic parts to industrial clients.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by aft_72005

Hi to carl and all
In MFD article ,carl used 5khz frequency for gold prospecting .
Some of other commercials almost also using this frequency.
My questions now, can anybody tell me where are come 5 khz ?
How it calculated?
why don’t using 10 khz or 15khz or other range of frequency?
What is relation between this frequency with materials resonance frequency ?
Anybody know This relation formula ?
Regards.

I don't know exactly who came up with the 5kHz frequency for gold. Possibly Bill Morgan (BMI detectors). To my knowledge, it is not the result of any calculations, nor does it relate in any way to the NMR frequency.

Most likely, it was derived through experimental methods using known samples, and finding frequencies where dowsing rods reacted the strongest. Such experiments, where good scientific methods such as randomized blind testing are NOT used, produce results that are entirely subjective, and will vary wildly person-to-person. I have no doubt that whoever came up with 5kHz, would fail miserably to confirm that frequency in a randomized blind test.

Also, of the MFDs I've looked at, I've yet to see one that actually uses 5kHz for gold. Even stranger, I've yet to find any two models that use the same frequency for gold. Even models from the same manufacturer -- 3 from Dell and 2 from Vector Trek -- are different. And some of Dell's have a knob that vary the frequency all over the place. It's truly as if the frequency makes no difference whatsoever... and it doesn't. It's all just a big hoax.

- Carl

[Geo]

Originally Posted by aft_72005

Hi to carl and all
In MFD article ,carl used 5khz frequency for gold prospecting .
Some of other commercials almost also using this frequency.
My questions now, can anybody tell me where are come 5 khz ?
How it calculated?
why don’t using 10 khz or 15khz or other range of frequency?
What is relation between this frequency with materials resonance frequency ?
Anybody know This relation formula ?
Regards.

MFD works very good with small and new buried objects. So it was easy to see at who frequency it works better for the gold... silver etc. All the guys that i know they use the 5000..... 5100 frequency for the gold (they say that it is more sensitive), but why between some manufacturers there is difference frequency?????? i don't know

[aft_72005]

hi Carl, J_Player

J_Player,thanks for this : http://www.sumachine.com/shs300.pdf
Carl, J_Player, I study molecular resonance frequency, found the formula
Which calculated resonance frequency, it has some parameters and one of that
Was intensity of magnetism field, in lab conditions magnetism field was variable.
NMR For silver approximately between 800-1500MHZ depended on magnetism field intensity .
Not any similarity and relation between 5KHZ and 1500MHZ, NMR happened for materials
in very high frequency ,
approximately in vhf and uhf bands .
Regards.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by aft_72005

I study molecular resonance frequency, found the formula Which calculated resonance frequency, it has some parameters and one of that Was intensity of magnetism field, in lab conditions magnetism field was variable. NMR For silver approximately between 800-1500MHZ depended on magnetism field intensity

Hi aft_72005,

Can you show where you found this formula so we can read it also?

Thank you,
J_P

[aft_72005]

HI Geo
Seem you have good practice with l rods .
Please more explain.and
I saw form TV in your country was happened fire
And burned big area of forest.
accept my regret .
regards .

[aft_72005]

Hi J_Player
I am working now ,exactly presentation that book
when go back my home, probably tomorrow .
regards.

[J_Player]

Ok thank you aft_72005. If you give the name of the book and the name of the author who wrote it, then maybe we can find it on the internet.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by aft_72005

hi Carl, J_Player

J_Player,thanks for this : http://www.sumachine.com/shs300.pdf
Carl, J_Player, I study molecular resonance frequency, found the formula
Which calculated resonance frequency, it has some parameters and one of that
Was intensity of magnetism field, in lab conditions magnetism field was variable.
NMR For silver approximately between 800-1500MHZ depended on magnetism field intensity .
Not any similarity and relation between 5KHZ and 1500MHZ, NMR happened for materials
in very high frequency ,
approximately in vhf and uhf bands .
Regards.

Real NMR is impossible to be made outside a controlled envirnment.
That's the sad news.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Geo

MFD works very good with small and new buried objects. So it was easy to see at who frequency it works better for the gold... silver etc. All the guys that i know they use the 5000..... 5100 frequency for the gold (they say that it is more sensitive), but why between some manufacturers there is difference frequency?????? i don't know

Hi Geo,
all MFD pistols and handy-gizmos proved, untill now, are just SCAM devices. Like the Quadro Traker, also MFD claimed.

ALL BS.

No TH-MFD device work. Even the principle of operation is a mixture of black magic frequencies and fantasies with science-fiction.

Quadro claimed that for years and sold units even to the FBI... then was sued by FBI and convicted.

Say everything for me.

Who say that 5KHz is the "frequency of gold" is a liar or just doesn't understand anything of what he's talking about.

The guys you know maybe are "dowsers"... and use the so called MFD to increase their ability.
I don't belive in dowsing... but saw something similar.

Kind regards,
Max

[Carl-NC]

The Facts About NMR

A common claim with MFD proponents is that "all elements have a natural frequency" and will either resonate with other like elements, or can be made to resonate with a properly tuned signal generator. MFD proponents often point to the fact that all elements have a property called "nuclear magnetic resonance" and, therefore, the concept of resonance is entirely scientific.

Yes, it is true that all elements have an NMR frequency. You can go to WebElements and click on an element, then click the NMR link to the left side. For gold, you will find that the NMR frequency is 1.754000MHz, and that this entry includes the statement "relative to 1H = 100 (MHz)". What does this mean?

It turns out the NMR frequency for any given element is dependent on the static magnetic field the element is exposed to. For gold, the magnetic field that produces an NMR frequency of 1.754MHz is the same field that produces an NMR frequency of 100MHz for hydrogen.

What is this field? With a little effort, you will find the field strength to be roughly 2.35 Teslas. So for hydrogen, 2.35T yields an NMR frequency of 100MHz. 4.7T will result in an NMR frequency of 200MHz. In other words, the NMR frequency is proportional to the magnetic field.

What about the Earth's natural magnetic field? This varies from place-to-place, but 50 microTeslas (uT) is a fair average strength. So the magnetic field strength of 2.35T is a whopping 47,000 times stronger than the Earth's field. Working the other way, we can find that the NMR frequency of hydrogen exposed to the Earth's field is a mere 2.13kHz. And guess what? That's exactly the frequency we get from a proton precession magnetometer! Most PPM's use hydrogen-rich water as the precession medium, and it is the hydrogen that is doing the precessing. Variations in the Earth's field due to iron targets change the precession frequency, exactly because the NMR frequency varies with field strength.

So gold has an NMR frequency of 1.754MHz at 2.35T, which means at 50uT it will have an NMR frequency of only 37 Hz or so. So if any MFD were being true to the NMR property, it would use 37Hz for gold. Not 5kHz. Now, some MFD manufacturers talk about resonating elements at a harmonic (or, sometimes, a "sub-harmonic") frequency. Although 5kHz is roughly the 135th harmonic of 37Hz, it is far, far less efficient to try to resonate something at a harmonic rather than the fundamental. Anyone who has used 3rd overtone crystals is aware of this, and claiming resonance at the 135th harmonic is just plain absurd.

So now that we know what the real frequency of resonance should be, we can proceed with a gold detector, right? Not so fast. Let's go back to the proton mag. How does a PPM detect the precession frequency of water? Well, typically a small bottle of water is placed INSIDE a fairly hefty coil. The coil serves two purposes. First, water just sitting around has its molecules all randomly oriented, so that even if they were "resonating", there would be no net signal due to an overall cancelation of all the little signals. So the coil is hit with a large transient current, which generates a large magnetic field, which serves to align at least some of the water molecules. Then, with the transient field removed, the coil becomes a receiver to detect the very, very weak precession signal from the water.

So in order to utilize NMR, we need to "ping" the target to get it to precess, much like hitting a bell with a clapper. Then, we need a way to detect the precession signal, which is incredibly weak. With PPM, both of these are only accomplished when the water is INSIDE the coil. The same is true with hospital MRI machines... the patient is slid INSIDE a humongous coil.

In the end, the concept of trying to remotely resonate buried targets is just bogus. It is like trying to boil water with a microwave oven, by placing the water 100 meters from the oven, and then running the oven on a 9-volt battery. Ain't gonna happen.

- Carl

[hung]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

The Facts About NMR

A common claim with MFD proponents is that "all elements have a natural frequency" and will either resonate with other like elements, or can be made to resonate with a properly tuned signal generator. MFD proponents often point to the fact that all elements have a property called "nuclear magnetic resonance" and, therefore, the concept of resonance is entirely scientific.

Yes, it is true that all elements have an NMR frequency. You can go to WebElements and click on an element, then click the NMR link to the left side. For gold, you will find that the NMR frequency is 1.754000MHz, and that this entry includes the statement "relative to 1H = 100 (MHz)". What does this mean?

It turns out the NMR frequency for any given element is dependent on the static magnetic field the element is exposed to. For gold, the magnetic field that produces an NMR frequency of 1.754MHz is the same field that produces an NMR frequency of 100MHz for hydrogen.

What is this field? With a little effort, you will find the field strength to be roughly 2.35 Teslas. So for hydrogen, 2.35T yields an NMR frequency of 100MHz. 4.7T will result in an NMR frequency of 200MHz. In other words, the NMR frequency is proportional to the magnetic field.

What about the Earth's natural magnetic field? This varies from place-to-place, but 50 microTeslas (uT) is a fair average strength. So the magnetic field strength of 2.35T is a whopping 47,000 times stronger than the Earth's field. Working the other way, we can find that the NMR frequency of hydrogen exposed to the Earth's field is a mere 2.13kHz. And guess what? That's exactly the frequency we get from a proton precession magnetometer! Most PPM's use hydrogen-rich water as the precession medium, and it is the hydrogen that is doing the precessing. Variations in the Earth's field due to iron targets change the precession frequency, exactly because the NMR frequency varies with field strength.

So gold has an NMR frequency of 1.754MHz at 2.35T, which means at 50uT it will have an NMR frequency of only 37 Hz or so. So if any MFD were being true to the NMR property, it would use 37Hz for gold. Not 5kHz. Now, some MFD manufacturers talk about resonating elements at a harmonic (or, sometimes, a "sub-harmonic") frequency. Although 5kHz is roughly the 135th harmonic of 37Hz, it is far, far less efficient to try to resonate something at a harmonic rather than the fundamental. Anyone who has used 3rd overtone crystals is aware of this, and claiming resonance at the 135th harmonic is just plain absurd.

So now that we know what the real frequency of resonance should be, we can proceed with a gold detector, right? Not so fast. Let's go back to the proton mag. How does a PPM detect the precession frequency of water? Well, typically a small bottle of water is placed INSIDE a fairly hefty coil. The coil serves two purposes. First, water just sitting around has its molecules all randomly oriented, so that even if they were "resonating", there would be no net signal due to an overall cancelation of all the little signals. So the coil is hit with a large transient current, which generates a large magnetic field, which serves to align at least some of the water molecules. Then, with the transient field removed, the coil becomes a receiver to detect the very, very weak precession signal from the water.

So in order to utilize NMR, we need to "ping" the target to get it to precess, much like hitting a bell with a clapper. Then, we need a way to detect the precession signal, which is incredibly weak. With PPM, both of these are only accomplished when the water is INSIDE the coil. The same is true with hospital MRI machines... the patient is slid INSIDE a humongous coil.

In the end, the concept of trying to remotely resonate buried targets is just bogus. It is like trying to boil water with a microwave oven, by placing the water 100 meters from the oven, and then running the oven on a 9-volt battery. Ain't gonna happen.

- Carl

You presented some fairly correct info above, but some of them as well as the conclusions are mostly wrong. When you mix up the equation, not surprisingly you will get wrong and incorrect results, conclusions and aproaches. I will not be discussing this here, but your explanation on MFDs are incorrect and the other assumptions above don't apply.

[J_Player]

Thanks for the excellent explanation Carl. That pretty much tells the whole story about what is the gold NMR resonant frequency.

Your explanation also sheds some light on frequencies of other materials. I suppose if we wanted to learn the true resonant frequencies of materials like copper, lead, diamond, paper currency, semiprecious stones, etc, we would the scientists already know these frequencies and have published them in charts, which are likely to be something different than is advertised by LRL manufacturers, or frequencies generated in their circuitry.

For example, if we looked up the resonant frequency for diamond, I presume we would be looking for data on carbon NMR frequency in a 50 NT field. The question is: How would we determine if the carbon we found at this frequency is a diamond or a piece of charcoal, or part of a tree branch? Maybe we located some CO2 in exhaled air. If it were possible to sense the NMR frequency of carbon using a hand held locator in an open field, wouldn't a diamond be lost in an overwhelming amount of stray carbon found on much of the surface of the earth and in the air?

Also, it seems like it would be hard to detect anything without some high powered lab equipment. Hospital MRI machines are so powerful that they refuse to allow an MRI test on anyone who has ferrous metal fragments embedded in their body, for fear of causing injury in case the fragment was ripped loose by the intense magnetic field. Yet this field strength is necessary to make it possible to generate any kind of recognizable medical image.

This makes me wonder how a hand held device with battery power can locate the NMR of anything at distance, especially when the hand held locator is tuned to the wrong frequency.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

You can find these frequencies with Larmor's frequency calculator for elements. These varies according the magnetic field applied in any substance or element. OK.

With PPM, both of these are only accomplished when the water is INSIDE the coil. The same is true with hospital MRI machines... the patient is slid INSIDE a humongous coil.

Yes, but you forgett the possibility of irradiated a kind of laser-infrared beam (modulated) and collect the information regarding each substance.

I think seriously in other kind of frequency, the based on vibration of the molecules of each element, very precisse for each.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Yes, but you forgett the possibility of irradiated a kind of laser-infrared beam (modulated) and collect the information regarding each substance.

Hi Esteban,

Can you tell us more about these modulated irradiated laser-infrared beams?
This does not sound like magnetic resonance, but maybe magnetic resonance combined with something else?

Where do you find these beams, how can we sense them?
Do they come from buried objects, or do they come from all objects?
How strong is this beam signal?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

Originally Posted by Max

Who say that 5KHz is the "frequency of gold" is a liar or just doesn't understand anything of what he's talking about.
The people that work with MFD (not me).

The guys you know maybe are "dowsers"... and use the so called MFD to increase their ability.
Yes with good results at fresh buried objects
I don't belive in dowsing... but saw something similar.
The same to me but i saw... saw.... saw
Kind regards,
Max

Carl wrote "In the end, the concept of trying to remotely resonate buried targets is just bogus. It is like trying to boil water with a microwave oven, by placing the water 100 meters from the oven, and then running the oven on a 9-volt battery. Ain't gonna happen"
Maybe......... but as i wrote that "MFD works very good with small and new buried objects" .......... it is true... Why?????? i don't know (Ohhh there is problem with old buried or very big objects, here is the problem ..... can't find exactly the center)
Regards

[Esteban]

Hi J_Player,

You emit a IR-laser or IR modulated in audio beam, NO A FIX BEAM in wich you insert the tone via a capacitor. No, you ON and OFF the IR diode at this tone frequency, can be 400 Hz. This tone (modulation) appears as a phase shift in a receiver system. I only try with IR, but sure IR-laser will be better, but much more expensive in comparation. Not for to measure temp, but this beam is like a precisse antenna in wich beam "travel" the phenomenom (because I try it only for old buried items, no for new) and dislocates the system. Also all bodies emit IR, metals in major quantity. But the question is: why I can't detect a person (wich emit IR) but yes a metal buried? What is the associated phenomenom inherent to this? Atomic vibration also? Is very complex!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

When you mix up the equation, not surprisingly you will get wrong and incorrect results, conclusions and aproaches.

Yes - perfectly true, and no-one will disagree with that!

In fact, this is admirably demonstrated by MFDs. A complete confusion of ideas and concepts...

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by hung

You presented some fairly correct info above, but some of them as well as the conclusions are mostly wrong. When you mix up the equation, not surprisingly you will get wrong and incorrect results, conclusions and aproaches. I will not be discussing this here, but your explanation on MFDs are incorrect and the other assumptions above don't apply.

I wouldn't expect anything more informative from your response. To paraphrase:


Your initial facts and information are mostly correct.
However, you are aggregating these facts incorrectly and
arrive at an incorrect conclusion.

I know why you are incorrect, but I will not explain why.

Such petulance and arrogance.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by hung

You presented some fairly correct info above, but some of them as well as the conclusions are mostly wrong. When you mix up the equation, not surprisingly you will get wrong and incorrect results, conclusions and aproaches. I will not be discussing this here, but your explanation on MFDs are incorrect and the other assumptions above don't apply.

Eh?

I'm wrong, but you're not willing to discuss it? Do you expect anyone to take your assertion seriously?

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Yes, but you forgett the possibility of irradiated a kind of laser-infrared beam (modulated) and collect the information regarding each substance.

My post addressed only the misapplication of NMR to MFD. I don't doubt that there are other ways to detect distant compositions. Ferinstance, spectroscopy is used in astronomy to analyze the composition of stars and interstellar gasses, but this method requires light transmission through the object.

I think seriously in other kind of frequency, the based on vibration of the molecules of each element, very precisse for each.

Molecular vibration is dominated by NMR. Water molecules vibrate at the NMR frequency of hydrogen. Besides, objects like gold & diamonds are not molecular compounds, but rather atomic structures that have metallic or covalent bonding structures. So claiming that their "molecules" vibrate is meaningless.

- Carl

[Max]

Originally Posted by hung

You presented some fairly correct info above, but some of them as well as the conclusions are mostly wrong. When you mix up the equation, not surprisingly you will get wrong and incorrect results, conclusions and aproaches. I will not be discussing this here, but your explanation on MFDs are incorrect and the other assumptions above don't apply.

Hi,
Hung as always you try to disinformate people.

Carl said all scientific things/facts. Open your phisics book and read.
You need a controlled environment to do NMR, that is the NMR machine at hospital of scientific department, or the e.g. water container sorrounded by coil in e.g. a proton precession magnetometer: same thing.

In these controlled env. you know exactly what's going on, for example the intensity of magnetic field at each time and can tune/reset the machine with known samples (e.g. H2 rich compounds).

What you say here show only your ignorance about how these technology work. You probably never used or saw one in action like other people have.

Yours are just speculating.

Have no facts, lie here telling us that you use Mineoro's from a car moving:
tons of BS.
Impossible, and everybody know that.
You are a storyteller.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Besides, objects like gold & diamonds are not molecular compounds, but rather atomic structures that have metallic or covalent bonding structures. So claiming that their "molecules" vibrate is meaningless.

Hi Carl,

Interesting point. I was thinking a gold atom is considered a molecule, but a molecule is defined as at least 2 atoms. So you are correct, the nuclear magnetic resonance of gold is not the same as the molecular resonance, because there is no gold molecule unless it is combined with at least one more other atom as an electrically neutral group.

This makes me wonder about carbon. In the case of diamonds, isn't there a diamond molecule which consists of quite a few carbon atoms bonded into a structure? When I look at the difference between graphite molecules and diamond molecules, it seems that maybe there is some basis to say they have distinct molecular resonant frequencies. It appears that the molecules for graphite, diamond, and several other all-carbon materials are of different size and mass, which would support the notion of different resonant frequencies.

Maybe I am missing some key information here, but the appearance is there may be a resonant frequency for diamonds, even if it is highly unlikely anybody could detect this resonance outside an extremely strong electromagnetic field.

See graphite and diamond molecules here: http://www.edinformatics.com/interac...es/diamond.htm

Best wishes,
J_P