MINERO

[Dell Winders]

DELL, FIELD COMPARING THE MINERO, WITH OTHER REMOTE SENSING LOCATORS.

Carl, I could not find your tech report on Minero. Can you post some photos of the coil(s) , circuit board and inside the enclosure as you have done on other LRL products? Thanks! Dell

[Carl-NC]

Sure, no problem...

Here's the main PC board:



There is a microcontroller, a piezo buzzer, some misc components, a "sensor" (top-center), and a "black box" (top-right). The large trace around the perimeter is a loop antenna, which would not be the least bit necessary if the device works according to Mineoro's claims. The oval trace around the sensor, and some components connected to it, are otherwise isolated from the rest of the circuitry, and do nothing.

The sensor is a piece of PVC pipe filled with epoxy:



This is the one piece I did not have permission to dissect. But it functions as a proximity detector, as the device beeps when objects are about 1/2 inch away.

The black box revealed this nifty little circuit:



I believe it is a simple regenerative receiver, used to pick up radio waves. I suspect the demonstrations I've heard about involve someone with an appropriate radio transmitter who can remotely cause the device to beep on command.

If anyone has a Mineoro they wish to sell, rent, or loan, I'll finish up my investigation and post a formal report.

- Carl

P.S. -- the device does not detect gold. Yes, I tried.

[Dell Winders]

Many Thanks! I haven't examined it closely but at first glance it looks like some cosmetic damage would be done trying to get inside the unit? For $8,000, I'm not that interested in knowing.

Being technically challenged and totally gullible about electronics, it would have been my guess that the trace around the circuit, and the trace around the sensor were both parts of the antenna system.

What kind of a sensor do you suspect might be behind the epoxy. Do you think it would cause the device to beep when receiving certain brodcast radio frequencies? That's looks like some comparative heavy duty wire coming out of a sensor?

The unit we are using doesn't require someone with a transmitter to cause it to beep on cue. In the conditions of this area we have subjected it to, it often beeps continously.

Another question, is there an output frequency, or does it appear to receive only?

Right now, I will reserve my opinion on it's merit in the field until I learn, and understand more about it.

Thanks for your input. The photos are very helpful. Dell

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Many Thanks! I haven't examined it closely but at first glance it looks like some cosmetic damage would be done trying to get inside the unit? For $8,000, I'm not that interested in knowing.

It's pretty easy to open.

Being technically challenged and totally gullible about electronics, it would have been my guess that the trace around the circuit, and the trace around the sensor were both parts of the antenna system.

Just the outer trace.

What kind of a sensor do you suspect might be behind the epoxy.

Don't know... if I were designing such a device to deceive someone, I would put a proximity sensor in it.

Do you think it would cause the device to beep when receiving certain brodcast radio frequencies? That's looks like some comparative heavy duty wire coming out of a sensor?

The outer loop & regenerative receiver could easily pick up broadcast frequencies.

The unit we are using doesn't require someone with a transmitter to cause it to beep on cue. In the conditions of this area we have subjected it to, it often beeps continously.

Yes, the one I had could do that, too.

Another question, is there an output frequency, or does it appear to receive only?

Receive only.

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

Carl, I appreciate the opinion. Do you mind if I cut and paste these photo's and remarks on TA, with a link, or would you prefer that I just provide a link to your site? Dell

[Esteban]

The "dissected" is the microcontroller version with an only potentiometer.

The PDC 205 and PDC 210 with two potentiometers that works in the limit is extremely sensitive. VERY. I agree the microcontroller/semiautomatic version (early PDC) is not good...


I don't know the performance of the 428 (in Dell's hand).


In this photo you can see the both knobs.

So, Carl's report is about the early microcontroller 1 knob model (several years out of the market).

[schatzsucher]

on which geophysical principle is the system based?

Is it a magnetometer?

[Esteban]

http://www.mineoro.com/tesouros/tesouro.htm

[schatzsucher]

that should be probably a joke

It´s a electronic LRL?

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Carl, I appreciate the opinion. Do you mind if I cut and paste these photo's and remarks on TA, with a link, or would you prefer that I just provide a link to your site? Dell

Whichever you prefer.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Esteban

The "dissected" is the microcontroller version with an only potentiometer.

The PDC 205 and PDC 210 with two potentiometers that works in the limit is extremely sensitive. VERY. I agree the microcontroller/semiautomatic version (early PDC) is not good...

I'll consider the possibility that adding a second potentiometer to a concept that simply does not work, might suddenly enable it to start working, no matter how remote that possibility is. However, I'll remain skeptical of Mineoro's claims, until I see one of their devices work in a fair test.

I have, in the past, offered my $25,000 challenge to Mineoro's US distributor. He declined. In July, I received an email from Mineoro:

Dear Mr. Moreland,

We would like to double-accept your challenge, as :

- MINEORO manufacturer of electronic LRL and
- SEGMAX manufacturer of mechanical inertial detectors by ionic and electrostatics fields (not dowsing)

- Our system of detection is by ionic fields and electrostatic fields.
- It is neither electromagnetic nor terrestrial magnetic or magnets.
- Our condition is that you have to publish results on your site and forums in the USA, and also we will publish on our site, and other international sites.
- All our search here in Brazil will be audio-taped and filmed.
- The inventors prefer that Mr. Carl Moreland himself be present as a Proctor or witness to attend a demostration of a new phenomenom in the area of science. If that could not be possible we also accept another person graduated in Electric Engineering or Electronics.
- We will need documents signed by Carl Moreland autenticated by legal authorities in the USA.
- The inventors , claimants, are called:
a) Jonas Paulo Fernandes Damásio (70)
b) Victor Alonso C. O´Campos (63)

- After the rain, the ionic electrostatic fields take from 2 to 5 days to recover to an ideal amplitude. Therefore it will be necessary that Proctors will be able to stay in Brazil approximately 10 to 15 days.

We would like to make clear that we are going to claim your challenge as two different companies, Mineoro and Segmax, with two different LRLs, and when successfully completing the tests, you will have to pay USD 25.000 to each of the different Claimant companies.

Looking forward to your news,

Best Regards,

JPF Damásio
Inventor
MINEORO LONG RANGE DIRECTIONAL DETECTORS

Oddly, when I tried to reply, I discovered that my email address was being blocked. I used an alternate method, and wrote:

Mr. Damásio,

There is only one $25,000 prize available. The first LRL that can be demonstrated using a double-blind protocol will win the prize and, after that, no other money is being offered. Therefore, Mineoro and Segmax may apply, but if one wins the prize the other cannot.

Please explain the need to stay 10 to 15 days. The standard double-blind test, as described on my web site, takes only a few hours at the most.

Regards,
Carl

I have yet to hear back from them.

- Carl

[schatzsucher]

that is what I had meant

[schatzsucher]

@Carl:

send also so email on okm

[mineorogreece]

JUST TO LET YOU KNOW I HAVE RESEARCHED MINEORO DETECTORS VERY MUCH.I HAVE COME UP WITH THIS:
IT IS SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION THAT EVERY BURIED METAL GENERATES AN ANOMALY IN THE ELECTRIC AND MAGNETIC FIELD OF THE EARTH.
SECONDLY,I HAVE TAKEN APART THE PDC205 MODEL WITH 2 POTENTIOMETERS.HERE IS WHAT I FOUND AS A BIOMED ENGINEER THAT I AM:
THE IONIC CHAMBER OR SENSOR AS YOU SAY,IS MADE UP OF AN ANODE A CATHODE AND A GOLD LEAF IN BETWEEN.THE BLACKBOX CIRCUIT IS NOT A REGENARATIVE RADIO RECEIVER.WHAT IT DOES IS, IT SENDS A SQUARE PULSE AT 11HZ TO THE ANODE WHICH IS VERY SHARP AT ITS TIP, AND IT GENERATES A SPIKE ON THE GOLD LEAF WITHOUT TOUCHING IT,WHICH THEY CLAIM THAT IT RELEASES GOLD IONS IN THE CHAMBER WITH POSITIVE POLARITY.
WHAT THE EQUIPMENT ACTUALLY DOES IS THAT IT DETECTS THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH ,IT AMPLIFIES IT AND WHEN YOU CALIBRATE IT,IT ACTUALLY ADDS THE SIGNAL OF THE ELECTRIC FIELD AND THE OUTPUT OF THE IONIC CHAMBER TOGETHER AND EQUALIZES TO A CERTAIN LEVEL.
IF YOU DETECT GOLD IONS COMING FROM BURIED GOLD ,INSTANTLY THE DETECTOR WILL BEEP BECAUSE IT HAS SENSED A SMALL ARC IN THE IONIC CHAMBER BECAUSE THE IONS POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE INTERACT OR SHORT CIRCUIT TOGETHER.THAT IS HOW THIS UNIT WORKS.
THE CIRCUITS DO WORK AND I HAVE TESTED THEM EXTENSIVELY.THE ONLY PART I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT IS THAT BURIED METALS RELEASE IONS OF THEMSELVES IN THE ATMOSPHERE IN VERY SMALL TRACES.THAT IS WHAT MINEORO CLAIMS TO BE THEIR DISCOVERY.THANK YOU

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by mineorogreece

I HAVE TAKEN APART THE PDC205 MODEL WITH 2 POTENTIOMETERS.HERE IS WHAT I FOUND AS A BIOMED ENGINEER THAT I AM:

Perhaps you could post some pics of what you found...

WHAT THE EQUIPMENT ACTUALLY DOES IS THAT IT DETECTS THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH ,IT AMPLIFIES IT AND WHEN YOU CALIBRATE IT,IT ACTUALLY ADDS THE SIGNAL OF THE ELECTRIC FIELD AND THE OUTPUT OF THE IONIC CHAMBER TOGETHER AND EQUALIZES TO A CERTAIN LEVEL.

If the device detects electric fields, then this would be very easy to test, by turning a nearby electric field on and off, and seeing if the device responds.

IF YOU DETECT GOLD IONS COMING FROM BURIED GOLD ,INSTANTLY THE DETECTOR WILL BEEP BECAUSE IT HAS SENSED A SMALL ARC IN THE IONIC CHAMBER BECAUSE THE IONS POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE INTERACT OR SHORT CIRCUIT TOGETHER.THAT IS HOW THIS UNIT WORKS.

An ion is an atom, literally... if gold continuously releases ions, then it is dissolving. And, the only way the chamber of the PDC can detect such an ion, is for the ion to physically enter the chamber. This is not possible.

Also, this implies that physical atoms must leave the gold target, come up out of the ground, and float across the atmosphere to the PDC. You would be at the mercy of the wind. And if these atoms could enter the chamber and recombine with generated ions, there would be no directional information in this action. The atoms could come from anywhere.

All of this adds up to: tain't likely.

THE ONLY PART I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT IS THAT BURIED METALS RELEASE IONS OF THEMSELVES IN THE ATMOSPHERE IN VERY SMALL TRACES.THAT IS WHAT MINEORO CLAIMS TO BE THEIR DISCOVERY.THANK YOU

More of that amazing science that scientists have somehow overlooked.

- Carl

[schatzsucher]

it´s a new generation of diving rod

[mineorogreece]

HELLO CARL,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST.I WOULD LIKE TO SAY A FEW THINGS HERE.
FIRSTLY YOU SAID
QUOTE:
An ion is an atom, literally... if gold continuously releases ions, then it is dissolving. And, the only way the chamber of the PDC can detect such an ion, is for the ion to physically enter the chamber. This is not possible.

Also, this implies that physical atoms must leave the gold target, come up out of the ground, and float across the atmosphere to the PDC. You would be at the mercy of the wind. And if these atoms could enter the chamber and recombine with generated ions, there would be no directional information in this action. The atoms could come from anywhere.

All of this adds up to: tain't likely.

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)
ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND.
SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.
THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by mineorogreece

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)

Can you show me where science says this? Can you tell me how long it takes for gold to start ionizing?

ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND. SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.

So you are saying that the PDC actually detects the ion's electric field, at a distance, and not the ion itself? Do you realize how absolutely impossible it is to detect the electric field of individual ions at a distance, especially in the presence of a large and varying ambient field? This is why ion detectors universally rely on ions physically contacting a collector plate, or going through a drift tube.

One other issue... drift tube ion detectors can distinguish between ions by their behaviour inside the tube. Simple collector-plate detectors cannot tell one type of ion from another... it just detects a charge. IF ion fields could be detected from a distance, there would be no way of knowing the type of ions... it would simply be a variation in the electric field, that carries no unique signature of the source (please, please don't tell me that gold ions have a specific frequency). So gold would be no different than iron or copper, or the ions emitted by a DC electric motor, or high-voltage power lines, or any other ions floating around.

So far, your explanations don't correlate with science. I still await photos of your dissected PDC205... perhaps they will show something that makes sense.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by schatzsucher

it´s a new generation of diving rod

No, it's not that... there is no dowsing mechanism involved at all.

- Carl

[goldfinder]

I built a very sensitive ion field detector to test the Minero claims and posted this before. The basic results showed that there are so many ion source and electrostatic field sources in the outside environment (like trees and schrubs) that any discrimination would be highly unlike - translated into street English - the Minero can't work as advertised - more BS&M (Blue Smoke and Mirrors).
Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Detection of ions (molecules in movement) can be selected. Ionic selective detection is a reality and today exist special fets called ISFETS wich detects ions and substances. In accord to Scientific American:

The R&D effort started in late 2001, when Koehl, an electrical engineer, arrived at Cambridge from the California Institute of Technology. "From the beginning, I had the idea to create a small, cheap chemical detection system for the military and Homeland Security and then, later, for commercial markets," Koehl says. He soon met Boyle and Ruiz-Alonso, and during the next months, the engineers looked at a lot of sensor technologies, "trying to evaluate what we could take to the next level," Boyle reports.
A chemical sensor "is essentially a filter device," Boyle explains. "Each substance has its own signature smell or fingerprint. That's what we filter out." For Owlstone's sensor, the team chose to develop a relatively new and little known analytic technique called high-field asymmetric waveform ion mobility spectrometry (or FAIMS). The approach sorts compounds according to how their charged forms--chemical ions--move through a gas when subjected to electric fields.
As the ions are made to pass between charged metal plates, varying electric fields (that is, the asymmetric waveforms) drive them toward either side and back again successively, eventually causing most of the ions to hit the plates. But careful application of direct-current voltages to the plates keeps targeted molecules from hitting the sides until they reach a detector at the end. Each DC voltage correlates to an ion type, so the device can be "tuned" to detect specific substances.

More info here:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...6883414B7F0000

But this technic is not new. Another technic (no new) uses an oscillator at typycal frequency of 10 Mhz. This technic is called:

Quartz crystal microbalance (QCM)
A quartz crystal microbalance (QCM) sensor comprises a quartz crystal coated with a chemically-selective film. The crystal is configured in an oscillator circuit and typically has a base frequency of 10 MHz. When vapours from the sample interact with the coating film, some are absorbed, causing an increase in the mass of the film. This in turn leads to a decrease in the frequency of the sensor and this is measured as the response. The frequency shift is typically about some hundred Hertz. The advantages of QCMs include high selectivity, high sensitivity, stability over wide temperature ranges, low response to humidity, and good reproducibility.

This technic was used in airport for to detect explosives. For example, tissue of the skin of X reptile is placed in a one face of the crystal and the few molecules of explosive (one part in 200,000,000 parts of molecules of air) can be detected.

[Esteban]

Carl
Go these points for to analize:

1. 2 potentiometers no mean that all Mineoro's models have the same electronic circuit.

* * * * * * * * *

2. The next mean: the rain causes disperssion. 2 or 5 days after the rain, Mineoro recover his capability. So, they need that you and your witnesses to stay 10 or 15 days in Brazil, because sometimes there are many rains. This is part of his condition:

After the rain, the ionic electrostatic fields take from 2 to 5 days to recover to an ideal amplitude. Therefore it will be necessary that Proctors will be able to stay in Brazil approximately 10 to 15 days.

* * * * * * * * * *

3. For Mineoro, LRLs no mean DOWSING RODS. Mean: Long Range Locator, in this case electronic long distance detector:

We would like to make clear that we are going to claim your challenge as two different companies, Mineoro and Segmax, with two different LRLs, and when successfully completing the tests, you will have to pay USD 25.000 to each of the different Claimant companies.

* * * * * * * * *

4. The double-blind test only is for dowsing rods. OK?

Mr. Damásio,

There is only one $25,000 prize available. The first LRL that can be demonstrated using a double-blind protocol will win the prize and, after that, no other money is being offered. Therefore, Mineoro and Segmax may apply, but if one wins the prize the other cannot.

* * * * * * * * *

5. In accord Carl Moreland's conditions in the section:

Standard LRL Test

Revised 24 March 2005

$25,000 Challenge

FAQ / FAE

Summary

3. No traditional metal detection, magnetometry, or radiation detection is allowed. The test is limited to the LRL only.

In the case of Mineoro's electronic devices, the Standard Test Protocol is not applicable, because is a kind of radiation detector. (If we consider Mineoro works as ionization chamber.)

In accord to this point 3., Carl accept the existence of another kind of metal detectors with the capability to detect at X distance.

* * * * * * * * *

I think there are confusion respect dowsing rods and electronic long range locator. Obviously, the "treatment" is not applicable for Mineoro's electronic devices, this is PDC or another similar Mineoro electronic models.

[Carl-NC]

Esteban,

The two examples of ion detection that you cite both require the ions to physically contact a sensor, which exactly support my point that the Mineoro claims of remotely detecting ions are unlikely.

Do you work for Mineoro? You seem to be speaking for them in regards to my challenge.

- Carl

[mineorogreece]

HELLO AGAIN
CARL YOU ARE INSISTING THAT THE IONS HAVE TO BE DETECTED AT A COLLECTOR PLATE,INSIDE THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER THERE IS A ANTENNA OR ANODE WHICH COLLECTS THE IONS ,AND BE SURE IONS DO GO THROUGH PVC PIPES WHICH IS WHAT THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER IS MADE OF.
ELECTRIC FIELDS AND IONIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC AND PVC.
THANK YOU

[Esteban]

Carl

I don't work for Mineoro. YES I know the two inventors. I assure you the both investigate long range detectors since many years and works all the days in this and they are serious persons. I was the person who said them the microcontroller version is not good, because the long distance detector REQUIRES external sensibility control, as old model DCH 85, you can see in a photo sent here (USA owner).

Now, via your message, I know your challenge.

I make semi-long distance detectors and contrast the PDC. The place where sounds my detector, sounds the PDC 205 or 210 and found the target.

I'm not scientific, but if I wait explanation from science WHY a simple RF detector in association with another electronics detects a coin (buried) 20 or more meters from the detector, never I will do experiments.

Why I involved in this? Because my first experience in metal detection was long distance, not the traditional, wich causes in me tremendous impression. As you, never I believe all this is possible.

The advantage of long range metal detector is the non-contact with the soil, mean don't have effects of mineralized soils and/or soil effect.

The more effective distance for a coin (80 m) with PDC 205 (in my particular experience) was in salty terrain. In another terrains decreases for a single coin. And this is a scientific fact (for me), because is a proof that the electrical conductivity of the soil increases much times this kind of non-contact with the soil detector system.

Ionic or electrical phenomenom, RF or what? Long range detector is an old reality. The photo in B&W of 1979 post now is another proof. Mr. John Baldwin (English, the more old man of all, died in 1987-88, don't remember very well) sustain a silver object found via electromagnetic-RF detector type radar. Mr. John and his different teams found thounsands gold and silver objects since 1960, first tube long range detectors, later transistorized as this photo.