GP 1 PISTOL DETECTOR

[takhslambos]

pistol detector from greece look like the mineoros.the side is www.detectors.gr

[takhslambos]

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by takhslambos

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

It's a dowsing rod in disguise.

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by takhslambos

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I think most of non working LRL´s(and expensive) are MADE IN GREECE.
And if one of this can work as LRL,i´m sure they are more popular...
So many LRL´s produced in Greece

[detectoman]

may be any of those detect wall electric lines very good

[Funfinder]

1st: LRL is an very important "task" finding real valuable treasures!

that's why 2nd:
It would also be very important to create a testfield with the needed "energy-fields" for testing that kind of stuff.


If possible bury some non-golden stuff that developes the same LRL-aura and put it behind some massive glass-wall, so everyone can see where it is buried but still the half of the energy field remains within the ground.

Another easier way would be finding or burying some "long time ago" object, digging a little hole so it's surface becames visible but leaving it there and then secure this hole from falling in and put some stable glass cylinder or plate over the opening.

In both cases there still should remains at minimum 50% of the formerly LTA-energy-field intact so tests with LRLs are possible!


btw. what are the similarities between Alonsos PD and the NASA ferrit locator? Those are in principle completly the same, aren't they? Shure it makes a little difference using omega coils or whatever with the PD but the positive-negative balance coil circuit that needs a very stable and accurate adjustment is the same.

That's why we just would need a much larger ferrite (30cm lenght!), more power (30 Volts), a quarz controlled oscillator and more coil windings for getting the real good results.

Perhaps mikebg has already the analysis ready for this:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...t=16491&page=2

I will post soon an analysis of maximal amplifier gain for ideal BALANCED REGEN metal detector.

[epitopios]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

That's why we just would need a much larger ferrite (30cm lenght!), more power (30 Volts), a quarz controlled oscillator and more coil windings for getting the real good results.

you mean something like that ???




Regards , epitopios

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

1st: LRL is an very important "task" finding real valuable treasures!

that's why 2nd:
It would also be very important to create a testfield with the needed "energy-fields" for testing that kind of stuff.


If possible bury some non-golden stuff that developes the same LRL-aura and put it behind some massive glass-wall, so everyone can see where it is buried but still the half of the energy field remains within the ground.

Another easier way would be finding or burying some "long time ago" object, digging a little hole so it's surface becames visible but leaving it there and then secure this hole from falling in and put some stable glass cylinder or plate over the opening.

In both cases there still should remains at minimum 50% of the formerly LTA-energy-field intact so tests with LRLs are possible!


btw. what are the similarities between Alonsos PD and the NASA ferrit locator? Those are in principle completly the same, aren't they? Shure it makes a little difference using omega coils or whatever with the PD but the positive-negative balance coil circuit that needs a very stable and accurate adjustment is the same.

That's why we just would need a much larger ferrite (30cm lenght!), more power (30 Volts), a quarz controlled oscillator and more coil windings for getting the real good results.

Perhaps mikebg has already the analysis ready for this:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...t=16491&page=2

[/size]

Interesting studies

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

...btw. what are the similarities between Alonsos PD and the NASA ferrit locator? Those are in principle completly the same, aren't they? Shure it makes a little difference using omega coils or whatever with the PD but the positive-negative balance coil circuit that needs a very stable and accurate adjustment is the same.

That's why we just would need a much larger ferrite (30cm lenght!), more power (30 Volts), a quarz controlled oscillator and more coil windings for getting the real good results.

Perhaps mikebg has already the analysis ready for this:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...t=16491&page=2

The principles of operation are in no way the same. They are not even similar.
The detector you show in the schematic is basically a 20 khz pinpointer metal detector that depends on eddy currents to detect metal objects at a range up to 10 inches. It uses a pair of critically balanced ferrite coils to gain more range than a typical ferrite pinpointer that may be able to detect up to 5 inches using the principle of eddy current detection by detecting magnetic field variances at the ferrite loop.

The Alonso pistol is a passive receiver with a fixed tuning capacitor and an RF detector stage and filter stage to pass VLF at about 60 Khz. It is said to work with or without a transmitter nearby, and is thought to work by sensing differences in the RF signal sensed at the ferrite loop. The only similarity between the two circuits is they both use coils wound on a ferrite. In fact, the Alonso pistol ferrite circuit is more similar to an AM broadcast receiver than to a metal detector in design. The AM broadcast receiver also uses a coil wound on a ferrite, and it uses the same tuning method, except with a variable capacitor that is tuned to a higher frequency.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Funfinder]

Thank you for your answers - I'm shure from now on it's just a very short time for understanding all of this "magic"...

Well, first we need clear definitions. "Passive Receiver" seems the wrong term - here are some real passive receivers:

http://www.techlib.com/electronics/crystal.html

btw. already 60 years ago it was possible to build such "detector receivers" (the pyrite-crystal or later germanium-diode is the detector) with loudspeaker-output - that much "free energy" is collectable by special coils inside the radio or by large antenna - especially if the AM-station was very near.

This info is important because near metal objects act like antennas, too. A good "passive receiver" really can soak up alot radiation energy and convert it back to electricity.

Next for understanding all of this stuff it's important to know the ferrite coil acts like a transformation coil and not that much as antenna. Shure it receives the inductive magnetic part of the wave and can works as a resonant circuit with a variable capacitor for amplifing the weak signal but a real AM, SW or long wave antenna is much larger and much more powerful, no matter if the signal is AM or FM modulated.


Anyway - the big question is: What kind of signals the "Passive Receiver" needs, gets or uses?!

It seems it receives Long Waves or better it recognises the change of the "background noise energy level" of surounding radiation at this level.

Otherwise the buried metal would act like an oscillator, using the "available" static and changing EM-Fields for his own "broadcasting". No, for shure not. Like with eddy-currents the buried metal "devours" the "natural" radiations - some better, some not that good, also depending on the ground-condition - creating an aura of lower radiation-field around the object.

If the very sensitive "passive receiver" is adjusted to the usual "background noise level" of a certain frequency-spectrum, it will detect objects that absorb those EM-energy - like a sensitive xtal radio.


The questions are how the ground-shielding interacts with the "natural or artificial radiation" and what kind of directional antenna has the best distance-effect.


If I'm correct, a simple AM or long wave receiver (150-450kHz) should detect the influence of nearby (and hopefully also buried) metal-objects and should work with minimal modification - but of course with a better antenna.

If the PD takes the whole EM-radiation from 1-100kHz and checks for the summa summarum energy level or only at a certain "frequency band" the buried object has to absorb or "re-transmit / transform" (like a resonant circuit) radiation power for gettin' detectable!

Some simple experiments should make these things clear.

@ Morgan and/or Geo:

If your PD really works passive it has to work much better on top of hill than in a cave. You could try in some cellar or cavity where the EM-field is much weaker than outside. You also could test near metal walls or other shielding. On top of a wooden roof it also should work better as directly near the surface. But maybe you can't adjust your PDs to such "extreme situations". However - every nearby good antenna should weaken your reception of the searched metal-object by absorbing the needed EM-energyfield! Would be very interresting if you could do some tests.


edit:
Normally with ferrite antennas there is magnetic-field reception only.
If the broadcast antenna is vertical, the magnetic impulse is flat like the rings of a stone, thrown into a calm lake.

[Funfinder]

...radio-compass...
a minimum bearing is much more accurate than a maximum bearing.

The PD uses minimum bearing, if the ferrite rod points directly at the metal location.
possible accuracy: 3-5°!

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

Thank you for your answers - I'm shure from now on it's just a very short time for understanding all of this "magic"...

Well, first we need clear definitions. "Passive Receiver" seems the wrong term - here are some real passive receivers:

http://www.techlib.com/electronics/crystal.html

btw. already 60 years ago it was possible to build such "detector receivers" (the pyrite-crystal or later germanium-diode is the detector) with loudspeaker-output - that much "free energy" is collectable by special coils inside the radio or by large antenna - especially if the AM-station was very near.

This info is important because near metal objects act like antennas, too. A good "passive receiver" really can soak up alot radiation energy and convert it back to electricity.

The ferrite receiver is a powered VLF receiver. It has the same design as a crystal radio, but with an RF amplifier stage, and an AF amplifier stage. There is also a PI filter after the detector diode. The receiver is passive in the sense that it picks up what is in the air, regardless of whether you are transmitting anything with the omega transmitter or not.

Originally Posted by Funfinder

Next for understanding all of this stuff it's important to know the ferrite coil acts like a transformation coil and not that much as antenna. Shure it receives the inductive magnetic part of the wave and can works as a resonant circuit with a variable capacitor for amplifing the weak signal but a real AM, SW or long wave antenna is much larger and much more powerful, no matter if the signal is AM or FM modulated.

As far as I know, a ferrite receiver is a very real kind of antenna. It is so real that nearly all portable AM broadcast receivers that are commercially produced use them. I cannot imagine using a different kind of receiver other than a ferrite or other small coil type for a portable receiver to pick up VLF signals while walking in a field which may be rough terrain. Of course, the purists are free to use very long antenna wires stretched out while they carry their treasure hunting gear.

Originally Posted by Funfinder

Anyway - the big question is: What kind of signals the "Passive Receiver" needs, gets or uses?!

It seems it receives Long Waves or better it recognises the change of the "background noise energy level" of surounding radiation at this level.

It is tuned to approximately 60 KHz.

Originally Posted by Funfinder

Otherwise the buried metal would act like an oscillator, using the "available" static and changing EM-Fields for his own "broadcasting". No, for shure not. Like with eddy-currents the buried metal "devours" the "natural" radiations - some better, some not that good, also depending on the ground-condition - creating an aura of lower radiation-field around the object.

If the very sensitive "passive receiver" is adjusted to the usual "background noise level" of a certain frequency-spectrum, it will detect objects that absorb those EM-energy - like a sensitive xtal radio.

Since the circuitry uses a PI filter after the detector, I suspect a large part of the VLF range is filtered out, and the tuning components keep the reception in a reasonably narrow band compared to a crystal radio. However, the demodulated and filtered AM is not sent to a power amplifier and speaker, as in an AM receiver. It is sent to a threshold detector to generate beeps when the signal strength rises above a preset threshold.

Originally Posted by Funfinder

The questions are how the ground-shielding interacts with the "natural or artificial radiation" and what kind of directional antenna has the best distance-effect.

If I'm correct, a simple AM or long wave receiver (150-450kHz) should detect the influence of nearby (and hopefully also buried) metal-objects and should work with minimal modification - but of course with a better antenna.

It is well known that VLF is used to determine the constituents of the ground when doing geological surveys. These surveys are often done to locate ore deposits, and can be used for locating metal objects in some conditions. The nature of RF propagation dictates that the amount of RF energy that can penetrate the ground depends on the frequency. The lower frequencies generally penetrate deeper than higher frequencies. in the 60 KHz range, we expect the RF to penetrate deeper than the average treasure hunter would care to dig without using heavy equipment. And we also know the conductivity of the ground is largely responsible for the variations in readings we get when using a VLF receiver to survey the ground. More conductive ground results in more of the RF signal being absorbed by the ground. In the 60 KHz range I would expect about 1/4 of the signal in the air to be absorbed, depending on the conductivity of the soil. Thus, the mineral content of the ground will determine the base line to set the receiver threshold at, and variations caused by metal or mineralised ground will show as anomalies.

Originally Posted by Funfinder

If the PD takes the whole EM-radiation from 1-100kHz and checks for the summa summarum energy level or only at a certain "frequency band" the buried object has to absorb or "re-transmit / transform" (like a resonant circuit) radiation power for gettin' detectable!

Some simple experiments should make these things clear.

I seriously doubt this.

Originally Posted by Funfinder

@ Morgan and/or Geo:

If your PD really works passive it has to work much better on top of hill than in a cave. You could try in some cellar or cavity where the EM-field is much weaker than outside. You also could test near metal walls or other shielding. On top of a wooden roof it also should work better as directly near the surface. But maybe you can't adjust your PDs to such "extreme situations". However - every nearby good antenna should weaken your reception of the searched metal-object by absorbing the needed EM-energyfield! Would be very interresting if you could do some tests.


edit:
Normally with ferrite antennas there is magnetic-field reception only.
If the broadcast antenna is vertical, the magnetic impulse is flat like the rings of a stone, thrown into a calm lake.

Unless the signal is broadcast from a hand-held horizontal coil, it will be broadcast from a large VLF transmitter maybe hundreds of miles away. The usual configuration is neither horizontal or vertical, but a large antenna array whose orientation depends on the distance and location of the transmitter, and the accompanying curvature of the earth. Another possibility is if a VLF loop transmitter is set up by a geologist. These are usually arranged as a very large loop of wire (sometimes over 1 Km diameter) laid on the ground to send the magnetic component in the vertical direction. But the received magnetic signal will depend on the location of the receiver. It is mostly vertical flux. But when standing near the loop wire, it can be various angles including horizontal when standing above the loop wire.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

...radio-compass...
a minimum bearing is much more accurate than a maximum bearing.

The PD uses minimum bearing, if the ferrite rod points directly at the metal location.
possible accuracy: 3-5°!

Hi

The PD is a real device that works,but in the limit of sensitivity,i mean if you are looking for little gold objects,and i´m talking of distances 2-4-6-8 meters,if its treasures the experience tell me its possible distances from 20-50 meters,i dont know if this device is considered a Long Range Locator,or better we say its a modified TR metal locator,balanced into the limits...

[detectoman]

Originally Posted by Morgan

Hi

The PD is a real device that works,but in the limit of sensitivity,i mean if you are looking for little gold objects,and i´m talking of distances 2-4-6-8 meters,if its treasures the experience tell me its possible distances from 20-50 meters,i dont know if this device is considered a Long Range Locator,or better we say its a modified TR metal locator,balanced into the limits...

may be you morgan pirate, no understand the principes of pd, these is hibrid, two in one, ok you then take an look to may last project named the extrange stuff of extremely poor detectoman, this too hibrid, bfo & ionic, these is today unusable, detect plastic and flyes, and other pest, i lie,is joke, only detect utensile hair friction at 4 mts directional
may be i am in recese, may mind ocupedd in others beauty thing
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr atach files not function, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
you no can then see my genial project jaja, i try in put in my avatar, grrrrrr
the modernity is complication!

[detectoman]

no brothers the sistem of avatar changes too is an grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, may be the problem is may computer
i await major time

[Funfinder]

@ Morgan

>or better we say its a modified TR metal locator

Please could you explain this more detailed - what you do you mean with "modified TR"??

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

@ Morgan

>or better we say its a modified TR metal locator

Please could you explain this more detailed - what you do you mean with "modified TR"??

Well,i tought the PD is one T(transmiter) R(receiver) metal detector mixed with other circuits...

Maybe i´m wrong ???

[Funfinder]

Thx Morgan for the info - we will find out.

btw. If Alonso does not like to "mass produce" this device it would be good if somebody else does.

Putting 50 or more hours into self-building and then sometimes it's lost, stolen or a special undetectable electronical part breaks would result in a really huge loss.

A relative theoretical question:
For how much money would you sell your PD, creating for yourself another one?

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

Thx Morgan for the info - we will find out.

btw. If Alonso does not like to "mass produce" this device it would be good if somebody else does.

Putting 50 or more hours into self-building and then sometimes it's lost, stolen or a special undetectable electronical part breaks would result in a really huge loss.

A relative theoretical question:
For how much money would you sell your PD, creating for yourself another one?

What i think,all the Alonso´s detectors are diferent,he dont make two exactly the same. Why ? Dont know...
Why i know this ? I know many things...

[Funfinder]

The feeling of success not only for an inventor is achieved
by creating improvements or reaching the desired goal -
that's the main reason why no Mineoro is the same.

But you didn't answered the price-question...

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

The feeling of success not only for an inventor is achieved
by creating improvements or reaching the desired goal -
that's the main reason why no Mineoro is the same.

But you didn't answered the price-question...

The price of any handmade PD must be the right price for one artistic object,Alonso not make copies becouse his work is *piece unique* compared to artistic masterpieces,he put the value of his work.
As to me i cant sell copies of alonso PD,i not found yet the correct freq. and i dont have osciloscope,i work in primitive conditions and my electronic knolenge is very basic...

[Funfinder]

OK, let me ask this question on another basis:

Morgan (or Geo, you can answer, too) - from your own experience since 1 or 2 years now with the Alonso PD (you know already well the performance, limitations, problems etc.) - for how much money would you buy this device if somebody sells it, how much do you think it's worth?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

the Alonso PD ...- for how much money would you buy this device if somebody sells it, how much do you think it's worth?

Boys at waste landfill says that it is about $1.25 to pay as tax for destruction such poisonus things.

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

OK, let me ask this question on another basis:

Morgan (or Geo, you can answer, too) - from your own experience since 1 or 2 years now with the Alonso PD (you know already well the performance, limitations, problems etc.) - for how much money would you buy this device if somebody sells it, how much do you think it's worth?

If the price is important to know, the PD cost in material 25 E,and the wood box + coil it takes all the day to construct,and then all the PCB´s are hand made ,and after this is assembling of components and finaly the calibrations. All this process takes one week, or more if things not work as aspected. So the price for the PD can be the same as convencional metal detector,if is to sell for 500 E is already good money for this,but this PD as much more power than conventional MD´s ,so i think the price of 2000 Dollar asked by Alonso is not exagerated...That´s my point of view.

[Funfinder]

@ WM6
Your mind is poisoned, too - perhaps with too much selfburned Sliwovits!


Hi Morgan.

Thx for this very interresting answer because it shows the work behind and that's really a part of the whole value.

I asked all this because maybe in 2 or 3 year hopefully there will be some commercial company that produces this device - of course best with Alonsos permission and giving him some money per selled piece as tribute.

Or does Mineoro plans to "mass-produces" the PD ? - I don't think so.

2000 dollar is alot money but it would be a reasonable price if you think that you have warranty and most important - you can buy always very fast a replacement-device if your own is broken, stolen or smashed (some german guy 2 weeks ago really smashed his 2500 Euro expensive Garrett MD display while searching ).


OK Morgan, let's hope some of those LRL-Guys focus on the Alonso PD and produce them for a good price. This way they also would have a real working device and can stop producing electronical-dowsing-rods and other superstitious stuff.


One last question per favorite:
Do I remember correct that you need an additional MD for pinpointing or does the BFO-circuit got it directly?

If not, eventually we could tweak the BFO?


btw. yesterday I modded my new mini world receiver with a "huge" bnc-jack. And some grounded 20m am/sw antenna is really much stronger as the little ferrite-coil.