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#1
01-30-2013, 10:04 PM
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The proof LRLs really work
... seems to be still missing !!!
I wanna make it simple so anyone can understand it: There is a big difference a LRL proven works under the needed circumstances or even just sometimes and: the detection of objects is result by pure coincidence or chance! This issue we have to made glass-clear - this is the very first starting point! Per instance a pendulum: Attach it on your rooms-lamp and leave it alone: Does it swing forth or back or describes circles or eliptical moves? NO WAY! If there is no breeze, earthquake or a person that walks on the floor above this pendulum is DEAD mouse-dead! Therefore it is not allowed for any scientifical tests because the movements originate from its user, from the human body with its unconscious or concious muscle-energy (= ideomotor effect) The same applies to dowsing rods, as long as they are not able to move without a connected (holding) person. Dell Winders as expample can attach his wonder-stuff onto a huge rock and can wait forever until it moves by itselfs - good luck - perhaps a flash strikes it and throws it to the ground!  _______________________________________________ Because we don't need any paranormal interactivity - and this would be the case if a "sensitive" or whatever psy-gifted person or even medium is needed to create the "success". ________________________________________________ Let's take a closer look to the electronical LRLs we are interested much more anyway! As I told already, the first absolutly necessary and important step is to proof such a device is able to detect something and all at a real repeatable, scientifically and logically acceptable basis. We know already from the Mineoro device describtion (hunt from north to south etc.) that the "pheonomon" if exists has something to do with magnetical field distortion. (and we know also that Alonso seems to need some "cheap" tricks sometimes to convince people...) Anyway, this "does it really work at all" test is an absolutly MUST !!! Otherwise those devices find stuff by pure coincidence or better the user finds this stuff by his additional affords (with a real working metal detector) So with this question everything starts or falls down! btw. this question also decides if a LRL company commits a crime or not. They are allowed to seel a device that under certain circumstances REALLY works, but nothing else! _____________________________________________ Now lets take a look what kind of testing-situation applies, is needed for those electronical LRLs for getting real counting results: The most simple solution would be to test it at a site where it is absolutly clear that enough "long time ago" metal is available. !!! Per instant some ore-mines, gold-fields, older amusement-places where people lost alot coins, holiday-beaches which contain enough rings and stuff !!! At such places the LRL-producer no longer can come with its "the LRL doesn't work with fresh buried finds"-excuse. Oh what a pity, I'm heartbroken!  The next important thing is that the LRL really works at such a location, the result is clear and certain interpretable and many times repeatable. Of course we don't need just a repeatable signal, it also counts that at the located region there is indeed something to find. We need other precausions: A body-search of the LRL-practitioner is needed so he can not play cheap bags-player-tricks. Another method would be different persons have to dig the region, at best persons who don't know this is a scientifal test they're working for. A second security measure is that not just the "LRL-provider-person" detects with his device! He has to give his device to other persons and those have to be able to get the same beeps etc. from the exactly same place! This also will reduce or eliminate other tricks like rubbing plastic parts to get static signals. Now let's assume this test was successful. This still doesn't mean anything. You can throw the dice and say that the 6 will be visible on the upper side and it really happens - but not because of any magical talents, just by pure chance! The same way by pure chance could be a find located at the area the LRL has circumscribed. This area must not exceed a certain range because otherwise the test is useless! It's no big deal to find something at an area of 10 x 10 meters! The smaller the delimited area, the better. 2x2m may be acceptable, depenting on the probability to find something at the selected hunting-region. Finally all what is needed to repeat those tests until a clearly non-by-chance achievable result shows up! The percentage-relation also has to consider finds that are deeper than the "pinpointing usual metal detector" may able to find. But we have to be really carefully here, because after we have excluded all the other possible tricks this will be the No 1 weakpoint for all those potential betrayers and cheap trick players !!!   Their cheap excuse will be: Oh sorry, my LRL works fantastic, just the find is much deeper than your metal detector is able to locate it! But we are no fools to believe such naive arguments! Depending on the search-region of course there is certain probability the find is deep outside the metal-detectors reach, but for shure not all the time! btw. the LRL-provider will have a hard time first to explain why the heck only long time ago buried objects would be locatable! Because this argument may be just a very cunning protection-assertion so he can avoid much easier tests with fresh buried objects! Be very careful, those guys "are washed with all waters" as we have a saying here in Europe - to make believe their LRLs are real working! Because for many of them its their life-content, being the proud owner of a real working wonder-machine! Their whole self-image depends on it! Not for all - I will not diffame fair working people - but there are too much black sheeps in this area, too many cunning sharlatans and their only aim is to enrich theirself by ripping of "stupid" people! Be warned! This world is no childrens-birthday!  The displeasure, unwill and indignation of many of them concerning scientifical tests already is a huge indicator that there is something fishy! Many of them know they will not pass a secure test where they no longer can play cheap tricks! So they avoid them by all circumstances and invent unbelievable excuses! Fraudsters with highly criminal minds! From where to continue - oh yeah: Quote:
The gold fields of Australia would be a very good place because often the nuggets are just a few cm or inches below the surface. And those nuggets are still so frequently there for creating 10-20 tests at one day. BUT: getin to the outback could be a very expensive and also dangerous trip (deadly spiders, snakes and other animals, the weather, a long flight etc.) So we need at least some alternatives: Old battlefields per instance would be matching. They are full of lead-balls and if the LRL is capable in finding not-iron metal objects it has enough possibilities to detect those lead balls from a distance. The depth of them also is good, most of the time they are just 10-20cm deep and within the range of usual MDs. other alternatives?! I am asking you !!! I'm shure you will come up with some good ideas! You have to if you will finally solve this pesky LRL problem! Don't forget: All we need to know if it is works at all! And therefore meaningful tests are the only way! We have already some fitting but we can need even more! Quote:
Mountain regions too, if the steepness there doesn't negativly affect the LRL. Even old cellars, wine-hangs, ghost-towns, dry river beds - there are many test-locations possible! It's not a MUST to test the LRL in some australian ect. gold-fields. Even the debris of some old copper mines may work. If those tests would be positive, really positive, it would push the LRL business extremly, even if those devices don't work all the time (rain, snow, storm etc.). Otherwise the LRL-disciples can go to India into an ashram or built esoterical sects because no one will believe their as wrong proven claims! So I hope now I've made it clear, CRYSTAL-CLEAR: There exists enough good methods to test if this stuff works at all or not! And thats the Premise (precondition) #1 !!!! Does it work at all - YES or NO ???!!! As long this is not clear this whole LRL-jabbering is nothing than a childsplay with dowsing-rods!
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#2
01-30-2013, 11:20 PM
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You have to ask your self, if you are smart enough to learn to use L-rods to detect Magnetic fields? Judging from the idiocy of your rant, apparently not. It's easy to understand that you don't want an LRL to work and destroy your prejudice beliefs.
Really, it's no loss to any one but yourself for any of your false beliefs. If you want to place L rods in a stationary vice that's your prerogative but it sounds like a stupid, awkward way of using them. Be sure you connect wires to the handles and hold the ends of the wires. A human connection is used to alter the polarity of the Rod(s).
__________________
  "WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE"
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#3
01-30-2013, 11:46 PM
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#4
01-31-2013, 12:14 AM
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Many people think they dowsing and doing it wrong way, with ideomotor. are what many people almost everyone ..: Συνοφρύωμα: But there are people with correct dowsing where they can see only signals metals.! are two completely different things! 
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#5
01-31-2013, 07:02 AM
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Does a compass need human touch to work? What is happening inside the compass needle to make it move? Back to school for you do not pass Guru status. Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroscope
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#6
01-31-2013, 12:59 PM
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#7
01-31-2013, 02:47 PM
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 How unconscious hand movement and self deception are somehow supposed to be related to magnetism, I've no idea.
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#8
01-31-2013, 03:49 PM
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If I place a strong magnet under 1-of-10 paper cups, would someone having an ordinary compass be able to determine which cup has the magnet?
If I place a strong magnet under 1-of-10 paper cups, would someone having ordinary L-rods be able to determine which cup has the magnet? I would not offer my $25,000 prize for the compass test.
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#10
01-31-2013, 06:19 PM
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Mineoro offered a $50,000 challenge for anyone that could prove the Mineoro didn't work.
Carl, had already been promoting his sick agenda by proclaiming the Mineoro, did not work but, without proof. The Mineoro Challenge was Carl's opportunity to provide absolute proof, be a hero to his Randi Skeptic cult following, be $50,000 richer, and prove Dell, to be wrong. Carl, by his own words said he had to borrow additional money to pay $2,700 to buy a slightly used Mineoro, shows how sure he was of winning such an easy challenge? Apparently, Carl was unable to scientifically prove the Mineoro does not work, just as he has never proven LRL's that Dell, has successfully used in the field do not work. He is good at BSing his agenda, If Carl, with all his EE genius can't win such an easy $50,000 challenge, how can anyone win his $25,000 self promotion gimmick? Yes , I offered, and Carl amended the rules. Again, by his own words, He wanted to make it difficult for anyone to collect his $25,000. Electroscope offered a $100,000 Challenge. Carl, never won that one either. Talk about self deception. The self appointed Scientific pretenders have Carl as an example. Cut the gimmicks, Carl. Intelligent people see you as a hypocrite, I know you as a liar, your gimmick as a self promoting scam, and your supporter puppet comments as "When Educated Idiots Speak" (WEIS) Dell
__________________
"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE"
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#11
01-31-2013, 06:21 PM
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imaginary magnetic fields
Difference between a compass and L-rods:
Compass responds to real magnetic fields. L-rods respond to imaginary magnetic fields. Therefore the two kinds of magnetic fields are orthogonal. ********* The math gets kinda tricky on ya because real magnetic fields are vectors in 3-space, and if you convert from vector representation to cartesian, you're stuck having to use imaginary numbers to describe a real vector. Now suppose the magnetic field is of the kind where the vector magnitude itself is imaginary? Pseudoscientists, put your pseudomathematician hats on (y'know, the ones made of tinfoil to protect your brain from skeptic rays), sharpen your pencils and have at it! (Dell, you're in over your head on this, better leave it up to Hung and Mr. Devil.) --Dave J.
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#12
01-31-2013, 06:49 PM
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DaveJ, irrational comments are an example of WEIS
DaveJ, tell us of the DB field tests you have conducted comparing L-Rod detection of Magnetic fields with that of a Magnetometer? Dell
__________________
"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE"
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#13
01-31-2013, 07:49 PM
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If I place a strong magnet under 1-of-10 paper cups, would someone having ordinary L-rods be able to determine which cup has the magnet? At least DJ's reply was entertaining. And, no, Mineoro never offered a $50k challenge, and, no, you never "offered" anything.
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#14
01-31-2013, 09:15 PM
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Sorry Carl,I forgot to mention your "convenient" memory losses. Dell
http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...ad.php?t=12134 CAPTION: Quote:
__________________
"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE"
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#15
01-31-2013, 10:19 PM
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__________________
Global capital is ruining your life? You have right to self-defence!
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#16
01-31-2013, 11:16 PM
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And "according to their research methods" right? Does it includes the use of a hidden transmitter ? Why not to simply prove their marvellous devices actually works ?? Would seem more logical and productive to me
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#17
01-31-2013, 11:37 PM
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Dell Winders at work
Our dowsing-device and L-rod gurus wanna tell us that's (see below) the way it works - I highly doubt it!
1. You can let attract a thin paper to a charged plastic ball but not a wooden dowsing-rod to the ground which is immune against static charge and already shortcuted by the human feet. 2. This also can't work because if the person walks there are much stronger shocks, vibrations and repercussions than the static field 3. the static-field difference a small metal objects creates is far to low to be detectable just by human senses plus a simple dowsing tool It is very simple to scientifically test if a person with or without his device is able to detect static. Place him on a wooden floor where below is a room that contains different static charged items. The human body is no walking electroscope or static charge detector! Especially not while walking over grass or other areas. No chance. And there is no way that the landcard of a map-dowser will have special static-charge-hotspots over certain areas that fully match with the real world outside where treasures may be be hidden! It's really interesting what methods Dell Winders uses to trick or "convince" people so they may think what he tells may be the truth. The blind will lead the blind... @ Dell Winders What's next? The human body as a gravity-field-distortion detector? Holy cow! Dell Winders found the lost souls from the pirates of the Florida keys with his new model - the detection signal looks like crossed bones! Dell, enjoy it that I'm not the gouvernator  of Florida or you could detect the iron bars of a prison cell already for a long long time, but from the inside! You are fooling stupid folks who doesn't know it any better with your pseudo wonder machines and you have not the slightest feeling of guiltiness about it. Instead you think you are the best. All you have are flukes and ideomotoric self-deception! read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpenter_effect And now Dell please stop hijacking this thread, if your stuff really works Carl Moreland would have found the proof for this since many many years! You are just one of so many many esoterical crap provider old grannys and superstitious people fall for! You also could sell crystals made of glass and tell them it will protect them from evil spirits and many of those extremly mentally poor lunatics out there would believe it! Perhaps you should go to Haiti and ban the voodoo-gods with your wonder-machines - this land is full of blind believers! Or even better: Go there an the detect some zombies! @ all: Back to topic !!! This thread is about real electronical EM-field detecting devices and really reliable methods to test them!!! Angle-poles, pendulums or dowsing stuff for shure never will pass such tests!
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#18
02-01-2013, 01:01 AM
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Thank you, Dell, you are right, and I had forgotten about that. As the linked thread shows, Mineoro not only refused to follow up on the "challenge," they even blocked my emails. Some challenge, eh?
The question remains unanswered.
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#19
02-01-2013, 01:17 AM
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Funfinder you present yourself as another example of the cult of WEIS that reside here. Unfortunately, You have been trapped in your little box for so long you haven't a clue how physics work in nature.
Go ahead, Let all those pent up rants out about me, and how uneducated you believe LRL consumers are, and see if it helps ease some of your frustrations. A reality check is probably in order. If what I say bothers you so much, just ignore me. I don't mind. Dell
__________________
"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE"
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#20
02-01-2013, 09:20 AM
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If static field attract dowsing rod independent from ideomotoric movement of dowsers hand, then why they must keep dowsing rod in hand during dowsing session?
Wouldn't dowsing rod be more attracted by static field, if hanged on string instead to be held firmly in hand?
__________________
Global capital is ruining your life? You have right to self-defence!
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#21
02-01-2013, 11:05 AM
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FunFinder's link included a very true statement concerning those self-deluded souls who believe that dowsing really works: "Many subjects are unconvinced that their actions are originating solely from within themselves." Try looking outside your [trailer] box at the real world for a change. Map dowsing at your kitchen table is a fools' game.
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#22
02-01-2013, 11:48 AM
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Qiaozhi, calm. One day you will see a real dowser and after it you will not know what to say.... For you, all the believers to dowsing are fools and all the non believers are the clever. I don't think......
__________________
Geo
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#23
02-01-2013, 02:43 PM
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"Why are you finding only gold nuggets which you place on the ground and watch them while you are dowsing? Can't you find the nuggets when I hide them? " Best Wishes, J_P
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#24
02-01-2013, 02:49 PM
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It sounds like Dell has suggested an actual test we can perform to prove L-rods will detect the magnetic field of objects which LRLs find... We can attach rods in a vice and connect wires to the handles and hold the ends of the wires like Dell says. Then we can get an assistant to wave some targets in front of the rods to see if they move. We can try samples of the same elements which Dell says he tested on his web page: gold, silver, copper, lead, nickels, diamonds, emeralds, garnet, flint and aspirin". We will certainly see the LRL L-rod move to follow the magnetic field of these objects....  Will it work as well as this L-rod LRL following the "magnetic field" of a gold ring we wave in front of it when there is no vice? Now lemme see... The force vectors go right-left, front-back, and vertical. I wonder where the imaginary component is? Best wishe's J_P
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#25
02-01-2013, 03:34 PM
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What do you mean by "a real dowser"?
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