Gold Gun with Gemini III Transmitter

[GOLDEN LILLY]

Hi to everybody, specially to those who are knowledgeable to vlf theories and its application. I have build the gold gun and i have heard that the vlf transmitter where it is tuned to is no longer transmitting vlf signal. So, i used my Gemini III (transmitter) as local transmitter. It transmit 81.92 khz according to the manual. I tuned my gold gun to the same frequency. I am not sure if its transmitter can be used in conjunction with the gold gun. So I ask somebody in this forum to help me the correct procedure in doing the search.
The Gemini has a ground assembly an option in locating a buried pipe with known point. So i use this option via a stainless rod inserting into the ground to transmit the signal. I do not know if i am right on this set-up. So, here are my questions:
1. What is the best way of transmitting a signal into the ground? Is it via a rod or the loop antenna?
2. Is the loop antenna vertical or horizontal? (lying flat in the ground)
3. If I use the loop coil and not the rod, what is the correct procedure for the search?
4. What is meant by "searching" at the edge of the area to be surveyed?
5. What is the estimated distance between the gold gun and the transmitter?
6. At what depth that the transmitter can go underground?

Any help is highly appreciated...Thank you

[FrancoItaly]

I am interested in this topic and when I have more time I will concentrate on this. Check out this link that I found very interesting:
https://borderlandsciences.org/journ...und_Radio.html

[WM6]

aulook, you can get answer at most your questions, if your test your Gold Gun with about 2m long buried metallic pipe. You cannot test it on single coins or something small like this , cause GG is not able to sense small item on depth. It can sense only bigger deposit/targets at reasonable distance.

What orientation of TR coil/antenna is best in your case, depend on TR/antenna construction and its distance from buried testing target (suggested: pipe). It is about sub-terrestrial wave prospecting and signal polarization. Of course depend on antenna construction and polarization, but most TR tuned antennas can be adapted to real search environment conditions. It is hard to say what distance will be best in your case - you need to check this on selected terrain with testing target buried at reasonable depth (for test between 0.5 and 1m.

Do not use to much TR power, since you get signal-reflective cacophony only!

So, for test: small TX signal, big prolonged buried target, then a lot of antenna distance and orientation checking - this can lead to success.

[GOLDEN LILLY]

Thank you for your good suggestion WM6. I know that you are very knowledgeable in vlf topic. Actually i am looking for Big and not small objects like coins or gold nuggets. I have Gemini III so it came to my mind to try to use its transmitter as local oscillator. I did pick up the signal from my built gold gun but only 3 meters and when i inject the signal into the ground via a ground rod connected to the ground assembly, the gold gun will not sense the signal. So please give me idea what is the correct method of searching using gemini transmitter and gold gun as receiver. Will the gold gun null if it detects a reflected signal from buried object or will its output increase if it also detects a buried object? Sorry for many questions that i asked, i am still studying on this type of method. Thank you..

Regards...

[WM6]

Testing target (suggested 2m metallic pipe) should be buried horizontal not vertical.

More latter I am weekend-moving to another town now.

[Geo]

No reason to use an external transmitter for the GG. If you make a fine tuning to it you can tune it to a strong transmitter (there are so many). If the meter readings more than 120...150 mv then all are ok. But I don't know if you will find something with it.
Also don't tune it at frequencies more than 30 KHz because LM324 can't give the gain of 30.. or more at high frequencies.

[GOLDEN LILLY]

Thank you for the suggestions Geo. I used the Gemini transmitter as local oscillator because i'm not sure what vlf frequency that can be heard in my country. So i downloaded software defined radio the SAQ free software to hear distant vlf transmissions although limited only up to 22 khz. Now i know what frequency to tune to because i hear a steady 5.0 khz 18.3 khz and 20.8 khz. I tuned my gold gun on these frequencies.
I use a dc millivoltmeter with low voltage drop diodes (bridge configuration) since i have no rms ac millivoltmeter. The result is that it is not accurate. I also notice a sudden increase in voltage reading. After investigation, i found out that it is due to distant lightning discharge.

Regards....

[WM6]

Gold Gun apply simplified, but otherwise known and patented principle (still sold in more sophisticated equipment).

Agree with Geo. About 20-30kHz working range could be optimal. If there is no outer existing transmitter signal, we depend on our own movable transmitter.

At least if you use Gemini II TX, it can be easily adapted to work at lower frequency. You only need to add one capacitor in TX tank circuit (about by factor 1.5 of existing Ctx). It can be removed when you wish to use Gemini in its primary function.

Regarding build GG it is all about directivity tuning.

[Geo]

Originally Posted by aulook

Thank you for the suggestions Geo. I used the Gemini transmitter as local oscillator because i'm not sure what vlf frequency that can be heard in my country. So i downloaded software defined radio the SAQ free software to hear distant vlf transmissions although limited only up to 22 khz. Now i know what frequency to tune to because i hear a steady 5.0 khz 18.3 khz and 20.8 khz. I tuned my gold gun on these frequencies.
I use a dc millivoltmeter with low voltage drop diodes (bridge configuration) since i have no rms ac millivoltmeter. The result is that it is not accurate. I also notice a sudden increase in voltage reading. After investigation, i found out that it is due to distant lightning discharge.

Regards....

You must use a true rms meter. If you have not one then there are simple chips that are full true rms voltmeters. You can see the LTC1968.

[GOLDEN LILLY]

Thank You WM6 and Geo for your help. Now i understand clearly this type of detecting method. All i have to do now is to tune the gold gun to a correct frequency and see if it has a promising result. My other concern is how will i know if i detected a reflected signal? Will the gold gun nulls or will it give an increase in output voltage?

[Agraz]

you can use the transmitter to the black antenna of the Garret Master Hunter, I heard the vlf tone from the Garret in the Gold Gun at a distance of 30 meters

[Agraz]

You can use this configuration in page 9: manual pdf Magnacast 5000

http://www.gold-ftgusa.com/SiteFiles.../FT9001-ar.pdf

English manual already removed in internet

http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...t=13089&page=5

I will try to prove someday think it should work

[GOLDEN LILLY]

I have tried the idea of reflective detection using Gemini III Tx with my home made gold gun But i cannot determine if i have the reflective signal. It needs more experimenting...
I used Magnacast type detecting reflective signal for the test but again no result yet.

[WM6]

Only at bigger deposits in soil you can sense reflective signal, not at small target as coins.

[Geo]

Originally Posted by aulook

I have tried the idea of reflective detection using Gemini III Tx with my home made gold gun But i cannot determine if i have the reflective signal. It needs more experimenting...
I used Magnacast type detecting reflective signal for the test but again no result yet.

The power of Gemini is very low for creating a secondary magnetic field from buried targets.

[GOLDEN LILLY]

I agree with you Geo. Gemini III tx has very small transmission power to create secondary magnetic field to long time buried objects. So what is your suggestion? What kind of vlf transmitter and antenna do I use to penetrate deeper?

[WM6]

You should learn how antenna works first.

Gold Gun is not metal detector (which is based on near field transmission), so big TX power is here irrelevant (in most cases even destructible to our goal).

Gold Gun is based on (mostly weak) far field signal transmission and should be tuned in adequate way to work properly.

For those interested, I will be honest and post this basic infos again:

http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...8&postcount=14

http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...2&postcount=16

[GOLDEN LILLY]

Do you mean Gold Gun does not work as advertise? or it cannot work under any circumstances whatsoever except reflective method of locating objects?

Any suggestion on the kind of transmitter to be used for reflective method? Is gemini III transmitter enough?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by aulook

Do you mean Gold Gun does not work as advertise? or it cannot work under any circumstances whatsoever except reflective method of locating objects?

Any suggestion on the kind of transmitter to be used for reflective method? Is gemini III transmitter enough?

Properly tuned and used

http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...4&postcount=12

Gold Gun works, but not for small things, like coins (except from vicinity in metal detector way). It works from reasonable distance (in meters) for bigger (metal or ore) deposits in soil only.

Mostly of others commercial LRL creation (in contrast to Gold Gun) doesn't work at all, or work in deceptive way only.

More TX power mean more disturbance from TX source (more parasite modulation signals, more harmonics) more EMI and more unwanted multiple cross-reflections from environment. With more power you get more signal cacophony only.

So better to stay in safe zone under 1W TX power and be more engaged with adequate positioning (regarding location and antenna polarization) of TX transmitter in regard to search micro location and proper GG search orientation. No matter which transmitter you use (as well as Gemini II) your Gold Gun should be tuned to the same frequency.

This is simple 9-12V transmitter solution (L1 is about 20 turns on 30x30cm Styrofoam body):

[GOLDEN LILLY]

Thank you for the suggestion WM6. I have questions on using a transmitter for gold gun.

First, in the schematic you gave above, how far the signal can go vertically and horizontally?
Second, what position is the transmitter with respect to the gold gun?
Third, if i tune my gold gun receiver to the frequency of the transmitter, how will i know i have detected the signal? Do i need modulation?
Fourth, what is the best antennna of the transmitter do i use, a coil or via ground rod?
Fifth, if my gold gun detected a reflection from buried object, will it display an increase or decrease (null) in my output signal?
Regards.....

[WM6]

Originally Posted by GOLDEN LILLY

First, in the schematic you gave above, how far the signal can go vertically and horizontally?

Using proper tuned and proper wavelength antenna (par example 1/4 lambda), with 1W your signal can travel around globe (do not use it at distances lower than 10m, even with couple of mW of TX power). So no problem with kilometer of distance.

Second, what position is the transmitter with respect to the gold gun?

At least mentioned 10m distance (better more) and as next important step you need to search for active propagation, by moving (angling and rotating) TX antenna first, along with using artificial target (par example 30cm dia metallic plate on ground).

Third, if i tune my gold gun receiver to the frequency of the transmitter, how will i know i have detected the signal? Do i need modulation?

Usually it will be enough inter-modulation with interference signals, but it is useful to use additional pointer meter or LED along with earphone.

Fourth, what is the best antenna of the transmitter do i use, a coil or via ground rod?

Coil antenna, like those with PI or BFO detectors (it should be flexible to set best propagation position). Best propagation will be easier to set with bigger TX distance from search field.

Fifth, if my gold gun detected a reflection from buried object, will it display an increase or decrease (null) in my output signal?

Both, where signals (from notable signal to null or vice versa) changes suddenly, detecting from both opposite direction, positioned GG antenna direction at 90° angle to Transmitter, there will be more chances for bigger metallic deposit under ground.
So you need to follow repetitive very rapid changes in signal. Slow changes are not indicative for our needs.

Regards.....

tx

[taxma1981]

Originally Posted by WM6

Properly tuned and used

http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...4&postcount=12

Gold Gun works, but not for small things, like coins (except from vicinity in metal detector way). It works from reasonable distance (in meters) for bigger (metal or ore) deposits in soil only.

Mostly of others commercial LRL creation (in contrast to Gold Gun) doesn't work at all, or work in deceptive way only.

More TX power mean more disturbance from TX source (more parasite modulation signals, more harmonics) more EMI and more unwanted multiple cross-reflections from environment. With more power you get more signal cacophony only.

So better to stay in safe zone under 1W TX power and be more engaged with adequate positioning (regarding location and antenna polarization) of TX transmitter in regard to search micro location and proper GG search orientation. No matter which transmitter you use (as well as Gemini II) your Gold Gun should be tuned to the same frequency.

This is simple 9-12V transmitter solution (L1 is about 20 turns on 30x30cm Styrofoam body):

This circuit work from 35-50 khz
The gold gun range it is 0-30 khz

[WM6]

Originally Posted by taxma1981

This circuit work from 35-50 khz
The gold gun range it is 0-30 khz

As already pointed, both devices: receiver (GG) and transmitter (above posted example) should be set at the exactly same frequency.

Using proper LC components, both devices: receiver (GG) and transmitter (above TX example), could be set (tuned) at desired frequency from say: about 20kHz to 40kHz.

Suggested working frequency here is 30kHz for both devices, but arbitrary frequency in above mentioned range could be set using proper L and C in tank circuits.

With schematic (without using crystal controlled oscillator) we can get indicative values of LC only, exact frequency should always be set by proper LC values of our actually used components.

Genuine GG AL-718 is working at fixed frequencies: 9,5kHz, 19,2kHz, and 27kHz (not 0-30kHz). GG working frequency is easily changeable by changing "USA" capacitor to other value that suit to TX (or vice versa: we can adapt TX tank circuit to suit to one of GG frequencies).

[taxma1981]

Originally Posted by WM6

As already pointed, both devices: receiver (GG) and transmitter (above posted example) should be set at the exactly same frequency.

Using proper LC components, both devices: receiver (GG) and transmitter (above TX example), could be set (tuned) at desired frequency from say: about 20kHz to 40kHz.

Suggested working frequency here is 30kHz for both devices, but arbitrary frequency in above mentioned range could be set using proper L and C in tank circuits.

With schematic (without using crystal controlled oscillator) we can get indicative values of LC only, exact frequency should always be set by proper LC values of our actually used components.

Genuine GG AL-718 is working at fixed frequencies: 9,5kHz, 19,2kHz, and 27kHz (not 0-30kHz). GG working frequency is easily changeable by changing "USA" capacitor to other value that suit to TX (or vice versa: we can adapt TX tank circuit to suit to one of GG frequencies).

I meen the circuit from gold gun can tuned at this range 0-30 khz....


we can have better results in this transmitter?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by taxma1981

I meen the circuit from gold gun can tuned at this range 0-30 khz

It can be tuned to 40kHz or even 50kHz too - no problem.

Genuine GG is set to 3 fixed frequency not for 0-30kHz as you wrote (and later "mean").