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#1
12-26-2011, 08:35 PM
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Why wooden box is improper for LRL
Dowsers have a lot of trouble using LRL devices built in wooden boxes. Why?
Seems no one is, meet of those different difficulties, thinking of wooden boxes as possible sources of those problems. Wooden boxes are great material for electronic boxes (like radios etc.) used inside in houses in relatively stable climate conditions. But if you use high sensitive electronic incorporated in wooden boxes outside in very different climate conditions (temperature, relative humidity, mechanical stress, signal damping etc.) it is about quite another matter. Even more, those LRL electronic circuits not are only incorporated in electronic boxes, but are with very sensitive parts of circuits, as antennas, tank circuits etc., not so seldom in direct galvanic touch with wooden boxes. Yes, in direct galvanic touch with wood. Considering only the hygroscopic properties of wood, which, taking it into changing climatic conditions, changing its conductivity, then we should not be surprised by the great whim in the operation of these creations. I do not claim that those LRL results, using other materials, were much better than the current, which are null and void. But certainly these devices in a housing made of other materials, would act more stable and would not be so strange subject of sensitivity to different climatic conditions, such as in present wooden boxes. Using wooden boxes for such outside devices are from electronic point of view in most cases a big mistake in design. If you wish your LRL to work stable, one important thing is to avoid wooden design especially if your sensitive circuit is coming in direct galvanic touch with LRL housing or its wooden parts. PS: I am easily go fatigued with English, so I hope that our excellent and very discernibile science-interpreter J_P will add some more in this matter.
__________________
Global capital is ruining your life? You have right to self-defence! 
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#3
12-26-2011, 09:36 PM
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Another problem is that there is no varnish that can protect wooden box 100% from atmospheric impacts and relative humidity in air outside, so your synthetic painted wooden box is even worst than if you use pure antistatic-synthetic made box.
__________________
Global capital is ruining your life? You have right to self-defence!
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#4
12-26-2011, 09:41 PM
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Geo
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#5
12-26-2011, 09:47 PM
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Which devices are you speaking about? Static LRL or geomagnetic LRL sensor?
__________________
Global capital is ruining your life? You have right to self-defence!
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#6
12-26-2011, 10:46 PM
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And many wood LRL boxes also have paint or varnish on the inside. But it is true, water vapor is a gas which can penetrate through small pores in the paint to enter the wood fibers and increase the humidity. The increase in humidity will cause most wood fibers to expand a small amount to make small changes in the box dimensions, and can even cause the box to warp to slightly non-rectangular. This happens when one side of the box is warm from the sun to drive away the humidity, and the other side is cooler to conserve the humidity in the fibers. I would expect the only serious problem is when high impedance parts of a circuit are in contact with the wood or other partially conductive parts of the box. Maybe this is part of the reason why we see several people who build the same project find different performance. For the parts of a circuit which are lower impedance, I do not think there will be so much problem with circuit malfunctions due to leakage paths. But there are definitely consequences for absorbing electromagnetic waves that could be significant at some frequencies and power levels. It seems that it would depend on what kind of energy the transmitter is expected to pass through the box, and what kind of energy a receiver is expected to receive through the walls of the box. I would think that it is important to consider what kind of signals you are sending and receiving in order to choose a good box material. In some applications, maybe a metal box is best, but others may be better with plastic or wood fiber based enclosures. A varnished cardboard box could even work if the material is strong enough. Maybe a teflon box will have some use for special applications because it has good insulating properties, and does not pass moisture. Best wishes,  J_P
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#7
12-27-2011, 01:09 AM
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Another idea for LRL experimenters to think of is the variations that wood can make for some electrical circuits. When we are working with electrostatics, and with small electromagnetic signals, the conductivity of a wood box can work to cause anomalies in the air, or to block certain electrostatic fields. The same conductivity that we find with wood during high humidity can cause electromagnetic waves to become polarized because the electric component of a wave is shorted in the plane of the wood surface.
This can happen any time the wood has become conductive because of absorbing moisture, or for other reasons such as conductive paint. (Metal flake paint can have some degree of conductivity, and black paint with carbon pigment can be partially conductive). If an electromagnetic wave becomes polarized, then the reception of this wave will be altered so it is not received in the same way as when the conductive wood is not present. Of course, a metal box will have the same effect, and maybe stronger. Metal boxes are capable of completely blocking some kinds of signals. But here is where we can find a problem: If we have a wood box that can absorb moisture to become more wet or dry depending on the humidity and the temperature, then the conductivity of the wood can change to cause changes in the circuit performance which vary with the weather. This means the wood box can be the cause of a circuit to perform well in some weather conditions, then perform bad in other weather conditions. If the conductivity of the wood is causing variations in the circuit performance, this could deceive the LRL user to believe that the weather is acting on the soil, or on the atmospheric electric charges, when the poor performance is really caused by the wood box. One way to test to see if the wood box is a problem is to change from wood to plastic during weather when the performance is bad. Then see if there is any improvement in performance. If we see bad performance in wood, then improvement in plastic, we know the box is part of the problem. Then when the weather is very warm and dry, we can change back to wood to see if the performance changes. If the performance does not change when you are using wood in warm, dry weather, then it will confirm the wood was causing a problem only when the weather was damp. In warm dry weather, the wood should work similar to plastic, But wood should perform more like a metal box when the humidity is high. For electrostatic circuits, a wood box may be a good thing because it will not easily collect a static charge. But be careful to keep the antenna circuits separated so they do not touch the wood. We should remember that any RF that is broadcast from the box will be following near-field broadcast dynamics which are noticeably different than RF which has traveled many Km distance from a transmitter. You can expect a 90 degree phase angle in the RF that you send out, and if the supports for the broadcasting coil or the box behind it is partially conductive, then you can expect some of the wave to become polarized. We also expect the wave to become polarized vertically in the region where the wave penetrates the ground, if the ground is conductive. Take a close look at some of the commercial LRLs. The materials near the broadcasting and receiving coils are intentionally made to be iron or hard-pressed wood fiber or circuit board materials. This was done for a reason. When we see many different construction methods for experimental LRLs, I am not surprised to see people reporting different performance from the same circuit designs. The circuit design is only one part of the locator. The Tx and Rx antennas are another part which will perform much differently if they are not built and arranged the same. Best wishes, J_P
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#8
12-27-2011, 02:48 AM
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Metal box better
I have tried both. The metal box I find is better. The metal blocks extraneous radiation and protects the circuit which is sensitive to electrostatics. You can also put the base of the ES circuit, the ground, outside the box using it as an antenna ground plane. then make the antenna the collector for the ES.
Goldfinder
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#9
12-27-2011, 03:37 AM
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It sound like you are using an electrostatic detector. In this case, the materials and construction methods are very important. It seems very few people have anything more than a basic idea of how electrostatics work in real world conditions. With electrostatics we are working with electric fields that are basically static, capacitive signals, or could have some dynamic components which cause an anomaly where you hunt for treasure. But if you put the same electrostatic circuit in several different enclosures with different antenna designs, you will find each of them responds differently to electric field anomalies. I would also think that an electrostatic detector would work better with a metal box. However, if it is a modified detector which uses an RF tuner, then the tiny RF anomalies will be strongly influenced by different box materials. More importantly, the receiver antenna design will be more important than an electrostatic detector antenna is. For an VLF tuner, the enclosure and the materials near the coil will have a lot to do with the performance of the coil. Even passive conductors nearby will influence the reception of signals. I would think in the cases of VLF receivers and transmitters, the antennas are best kept separated from the rest of the circuitry, much as we see in commercial radio installations where the transmitter parts are kept away from the antenna where possible. We also see in some of the portable hand-held commercial transceivers that there are parts of the circuit which are shielded with metal foils to keep external energies from interfering with small signals. Often we see even transceivers that are in metal boxes, which helps to keep stray energies from causing interference in the circuits. But in the case of treasure locator LRLs, there may be times when the designer wants stray signals to impinge on the circuits inside the box. However, I doubt any LRL experimenters will take these precautions except for a few who have some idea of how these signals work. Best wishes, J_P
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#10
12-27-2011, 06:14 AM
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Original Alonso's PD has wooden box and plastic coil housing. Yellow and red PD are all wooden. Mineoro PDc and FG are wooden. Mineoro DCH has metalic box and plastic coil housing. Etc......
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Geo
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#12
12-27-2011, 12:27 PM
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Unstable circuits and lots of external noise is excellent. Also internal noise from transistors and resistors is good too. If possible, make sure you have a lot of loose internal wires connected to the high impedance circuits. It helps if these loose wires bounce around and move while you are carrying the pistol through the treasure hunting field. They can help you to cause beeps to come in locations where you normally would not detect anything. Finally, don't forget to rub some of the substance that gold DNA produces on the circuit board -- it probably won't work unless you do.  Best wishes, J_P
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#13
12-27-2011, 02:46 PM
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Yes JP, your scientific observations confirms my thoughts.
I had the idea of a major improvement: Including special metal samples into the box like in the photo below... You get outstanding results if the spheres are allowed to touch the copper side of the PCB. Of course in that case there is the possibility of the signal being so strong, that some transistor may burn, as it happened once in an incredible situation with the amazing Dr Hung, the target was a treasure so big and deep it was never found.
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#14
12-27-2011, 03:01 PM
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You may be wrong about it was never found. There is a strong argument that it was found. If you recall, the locator continued to work after the transistor was burned. So the very big and deep treasure was definitely found. But it is so incredibly dangerous to recover this treasure that it was left buried for the moment. Can you imagine trying to remove boxes full of gold statues and bars from holes dug in the middle the streets of a big city? It is good enough to know you located it. ... No need to be killed trying to recover it. Best wishses, J_P p.s. The steel ball accessory seems like a good idea. Can they be sent stuck together in a pyramid shape?
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#15
12-27-2011, 10:24 PM
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 No the steel balls must be let free and able to roll in response of the ion wind blowing from gold.
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#16
12-29-2011, 03:42 AM
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Metal vs wood vs jokers
JP and Fred - you are very funny guys.
As to metal box vs wood. In my experiments with this my reasoning was that measuring the changes in the local electrostatic field was my goal at that time. So having a ground plane with the antenna pointing out from it, but not connected, gave me a way to see relative E-field differences. The wood box afforded no protection within the circuit so the local ES field was not really measurable as there was no fixed relation between ground and ES antenna charge detection. What I really discovered in the field is ES is a poor way to look for treasure. I was able to show that ES fields are everywhere. All the bushes have ES field. So do the trees. Every step i took elicited ES response as the rubbing of grains of sand by my stepping on them generated sufficient response in the ES detector. And on and on. Then I went to detection of ions (a new circuit). The sand thing still bothered this type of detector. So telling me Mine Oro boxes used this type of box or that is really nonsense. I did learn a lot about ES detection. Not sure if that was a plus. If someone was to ask me (which is unlikely) what is the best possibility for passive LRL I'd likely answer magnetic anomalies. The reason - gold is mildly anti-magnetic. Any large concentration of gold should produce a measurable magnetic difference to the local magnetic field. If someone would like to supply me with a couple of hundred ounces of gold so I can test this theory I would be electrostatic er ecstatic.  Goldfinder
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#17
12-30-2011, 10:14 PM
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And this is the difficult part for all the electronic people experimenting whith LRLs. May be it was many times that some of them came up whith a good LRL but they left it behind because they never did properly testing. I believe that having a proper place for testing is much more important than trying to choose a box between metal and wood. I am more into practising treasure hunting instead of constructing LRLs and what I have found out up to now is that some LRLs worked for me while on the right place but unluckily they didn't show any detecting abilities to their designers. Regards g-sani
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#18
12-31-2011, 02:15 PM
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You are correct for electrostatic anomaly detection. The best of electrostatic field detectors always use a metal box to provide a ground near the antenna, so the antenna will not become charged to the relative field in the air around it. the metal box also acts as a shield for the front end high impedance circuits inside. The concept of ground plane is more appropriate for radio antennas, not electrostatic antennas. But there is a similar principle at work for electrostatic field detection. In order to understand the dynamics of detecting electrostatic fields, you must first have some basic understanding about what fields exist in the natural environment where you are detecting. As you said, trees and other plants have a detectable field, as well as any animals roaming across the ground. This is because they are electrically connected to the ground, and will conduct the ground potential up through their body. Even leaves from the top of a tall tree will have 0v charge instead of 2000-3000 volts charge that you will find at that altitude where there is no tree in the air. In addition to understanding the basic fields, you must understand that when you are holding a static field detector in your hand, you are connecting the field detector to ground potential.... so the part of the detector you are touching is grounded. If you are smart, then you will make the handle and the enclosure from conductive metal so the entire box will be grounded. You then have a good ground for the antenna to reference against the charges it will collect. The idea is to compare the charge in the air to the charge found at the ground. You should find an average of near 100-200 volts at the elevation where you are holding a charge detector. But the antenna will find only a fraction of this voltage, because the grounded box in proximity acts to hold down the voltage when the 200v air charge tries to raise the voltage of the antenna. When you are searching for anomalies of the air charge, you then probe around the air to see if you can find unusual variations. In this case "unusual variations" means a variation in the charge that you find in a place where there is no tree or bushes, or other thing in the landscape that would be expected to cause a change in the air charge that you are detecting. That is the basic idea of a charge detector. But there are refinements which few hobbyists ever take notice of. For example, the Zahori charge detector has a special digital filter which unloads the antenna at a preset frequency which is set to be the same as the AC power frequency -- 50 or 60 Hz. The idea is to remove any interference from electrical power lines. This filter also will unload the antenna when there is no power line present, to keep the antenna circuit from becoming saturated with a strong charge that you might find from a large charged object. But the Zahori is a simple digital filter with limited capabilities. There are other charge detectors which are much more sophisticated. Some designs have high quality notch filters to remove the AC power interference, and additional filters to remove other higher frequency electric fields. Some of the best charge detectors use a high impedance front end which is filtered to detect only extremely low frequency that might be found from slowly moving charged objects, or possibly some slowly changing geoelectric anomalies under the ground as you might find when telluric currents are in the process of transition as the sun moves and distant thunderstorms are causing fluctuations in the currents under the ground. These geoelectric anomalies do not indicate the presence of treasure, but if you are walking with a charge detector at a speed which corresponds to the filter you have installed, your relative motion could easily detect an anomaly that could be caused by buried metal under the ground. However, I would not expect any success unless you first did a good job to filter out all the much stronger interference that is found at the higher frequencies than 2-3 Hz. A final thought about conductive boxes... The metal box that is considered good design for static charge detectors is also considered good design for RF receivers which use dipole antennas, especially the 1/4 wave whip antennas and similar designs. In these cases, the ground plane is part of the antenna system. However, at lower RF frequencies like VLF and ELF, dipole electric field antennas are very poor for receiving a signal compared to a coil antenna wound as an air loop, or around a ferrite. When using a coil antenna, it is important to be very careful where you are placing metal parts near the antenna. Since they are receiving a magnetic wave, induced currents become important, and you can receive secondary magnetic waves from nearby parts of the enclosure. These secondary fields from the box will interfere with secondary fields that you may want to receive from metal under the ground. The effect is your receiver coil will become less sensitive to the metals located at a distance from the coil. It could have the same effect as taping a metal piece to your metal detector search coil, then adjust the ground balance to begin metal detecting. You will see your ability to detect deep metals is not working as well as when you remove the metal from the search coil. In the case of a coil receiver for RF, if the coil is completely enclosed by a metal box, you could prevent the magnetic signal from entering the inside of the box to reach the receiver coil if the metal is a magnetic flux conductor. And if it is not a magnetic flux conductor, then it could generate secondary magnetic fields which cause interference to the reception of the receiver coils. When I look at the Mineoro circuits, I see a an electrostatic detector combined with a VLF regenerative receiver. I see they have two loops on printed on their circuit board, with the electrostatic part having a passive loop behind it. This loop has no direct connection to the ground by any conductive path through the person who holds the box. So what we have in the Mineoro FG locator is a wooden box which is insulated from the grounded hands of the treasure hunter. This condition allows the box to take on the voltage of the air around it. Since the treasure hunter's hand is located a few inches away, the circuit board will attain only a small static voltage, as if it was held only a few inches above the ground. So we expect the negative ground on the circuit board holds a static air charge of maybe 10 volts due to its proximity to the treasure hunter. This becomes similar to being grounded, but with the added disadvantage of fluctuating as the treasure hunter moves his hands and walks in ways that can cause static voltage fluctuations of the proximity field around the electronics of the circuit. Best wishes, J_P
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#19
12-31-2011, 03:54 PM
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Hi J_P
I appreciate your explanation of E static fields, You know that I think that the lines of force are curved in south/north direction and a voltage change over the target it's detectable also 10 meter away because the lines act like a taut wire. At present day I have not a working lrl, I can detect almost surely gold and silver targets buried a few months ago but also Sky and horizon effects and this complicates everything. I have noticed that only an high impedance E field amplifier is too sensible to every change like trees, walls and other things and practically useless. The magnetic receiver with a not shielded TR coil detects only targets and Sky and horizon effects but no trees and walls and then I think that the phenomenon it is connected not only to static fields but also another thing, perhaps the shield is like in a metal detector where it reduces the ground capacity and in our case we need some dielectric effect. My next experiment will be a partial shield or a total shield not grounded. Best regards and happy new year
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#20
12-31-2011, 05:30 PM
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The electric field variations you are talking about begin as a chemical change in the soil, not magnetic. Any magnetic effects are a direct result of the electric consequences of chemical corrosion and ion exchange between metal and acids in the ground. There are also secondary effects related to the earth's natural electric and magnetic fields which may be much easier to detect than the simple electrochemical exchange of ions under the ground. We know the earth's electric field is curved only to follow the surface contour of the earth, which includes hills and valleys and objects such as trees or man-made structures. The electric field is the same as you would find if you built a capacitor from a sphere located inside a much larger sphere. The electric field is is what you will find in the air space between the two spheres. This is the same as we see between the sphere of the earth surface and the larger sphere of the ionosphere. We know there are small distortions at the surface, but in general, we have a spherical shaped electric field gradient. When we observe this field from standing on the surface of the earth, it appears to be a vertical field which is uniform to all horizons unless there is a tree or building to distort it. It appears this way to an observer for the same reason that the earth appears to be flat. Unless we move our frame of reference to a higher altitude, it is difficult to observe the field and the earth are actually spherical. But what we can observe from the surface of the earth are the small variations in the field that we can find from trees, buildings, and other things that cause an anomaly to the uniform field. The magnetic field is a different kind of field. It is curved to follow the lines of magnetic flux from the north pole to the south. But the magnetic field is not as uniform and as ordered as we expect it to be from the standard formulas. The magnetic field is generated from the central and secondary core of the earth where there are large masses of molten and plastic iron rotating to create a magnetic field. But the outer crust of the earth also has a smaller influence to distort the normal lines of flux that we expect to find traveling directly between the north and south magnetic poles. We see that most locations on the earth, the compass does not point directly to the north pole. The direction of the compass deviates by various amounts at every location on the earth. We call this deviation the declination, which is an "error" in the compass from the actual magnetic north. Unusual rock formations and conductive soils which carry natural currents cause the magnetic field to shift so it is not following the expected straight line between the poles. We also see there is a second deviation called inclination. Inclination is a vertical deviation from horizontal. We can find the direction of the magnetic field can be anywhere between horizontal to perfectly vertical at the north or south pole. We expect the inclination to be horizontal at the equator, and vertical at the poles. But we do not expect the inclination to deviate from horizontal at the equator.... yet it does... because of variations in the composition of the earth's crust. The same is true for the inclination that we would expect to find at any other location on the earth. A third error we can measure is the magnetic field strength. The strength of the earth's magnetic field deviates a lot from what we could calculate for any location on earth. We can see it will easily become double when you walk 100 meters distance. For various location on the earth, we find the total strength of the magnetic field to be between 22,000 nT and 67,000 nT. This means we will see up to 3 times stronger magnetic field strength in some locations. All of these errors and deviations are caused by variations in the composition of the earth's crust. At the time when the earth was formed, some parts of the planet captured more meteors than the others, which caused some locations to have more concentrations of magnetic flux conductors than other locations. Meteors are only partially responsible for these deviations. The rock structures under the ground have a large influence on the magnetic field shape. We see that some rocks are more or less conductive, and there are underground water channels which also conduct electricity. The telluric currents will follow certain preferred paths through underground rock and soil strata, which ultimately influence the shape of the earth magnetic field. The end result is the composition of the earth's crust is causing most of the vector deviations of the magnetic field. But there is also a time-dependent influence which comes from the solar wind, and changes throughout the day on a 24 hour cycle. Between the solar wind and thunderstorms, there are about 2000 amps of electricity leaking through the atmosphere. This current also moves through the telluric currents in waves which follow the sun. If you measure, you will see there are times when you will see stronger and weaker telluric currents, which not surprisingly seem to peak at about the same time every day. "I have noticed that only an high impedance E field amplifier is too sensible to every change like trees, walls and other things and practically useless". This is why I say I don't expect you will find much success unless you first filter out the higher frequencies from your electric field detector above 2-3 Hz. But this does not solve the problem of making an electric field detector detect buried metal. You also need to learn what signals can be found at a location where there is buried metal, and add some more circuitry that will detect these signals. With all the misinformation we can read here about "the phenomenon" I find it highly unlikely that anyone could learn what signals are detectable unless they did their own research to find these signals. The way this relates to the box you make for your electronic detector will depend on exactly what kind of signal you have designed to detect. The electronics inside your box must detect a signal that the box will not inhibit or cause interference to the electronics. Best wishes, J_P
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#21
01-01-2012, 11:14 AM
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Hi J_P
I think that the magnetic field is not involved in the phenomenon, not directly, the unshielded TR coil it shows that it is involved a change in static E-field or dielectric change, perhaps the key is a perfect balance between a signal from an E-field amplifier and a signal from a RX coil drived by an unshielded TR coil, but two signals that have to do with the aerial E-field. My reflection on Mineoro sensor, If I remember well the gold sheet is very near to antenna or other similar device that is polarized with 27V and this is a sort of capacitor. The polarization acts as a filter for signals less that 27V. The gold is involved not for ions but more simply for its reliability over time (not oxide). Best regards
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#22
01-01-2012, 06:42 PM
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"we come out with the idea of inventing a "Substance Classifier" , that is to say, a device which has the ability to "filter" just the "ion" or "ions" we needed to produce the phenomenom of "micro crash", "nano crash"or below. After years of researching and field experiences , it was born. It was invented not just as a classifier - "filter", but as a generator of positive "ions", receiver of negative "ions" in order to the short-circuit occur , and generator of electrostatic. Through electrostatic , the "ions" walk long distances , as if along an "invisible wire". When the negative "ion" finds its twin of opposite polarity, they love each other so intensively, that when they get together they provoke a short-circuit autodestroying themselves. As in the Romeo and Juliet movie, both of them die, but the proof of their death is a flask of poison near them; in the same way, our "passionate ions" also leave a proof of their death in "emiting a crash", which generates an electrical signal so fast as nano, pico, femto or atto seconds, detectable in sensitive electronic circuits and projected for this aim. The classifier just filters the negative 'ions", twin pairs of positivie "ions" produced by the classifier. To this phenomenom, Alonso (60) and Damásio (70) gave the name of "Substance Classifier" or just "Classifier"." We see that the person who built this internal gold chamber did not intend to design it as a capacitor, but a substance classifier which would identify golden love ions. The chamber has a brass rod for an antenna, and a small gap between the gold plate and a point on the antenna. This chamber in combination with the BC548 and BC558 transistor in the first preamp stage are the components he says detect the nano, femto and atto second pulses that are emitted from gold love ions crashing at a long range. Also, the amount of capacitance we expect from this chamber would be very low because of the relatively large separation of the conductors compared to a commercial capacitor. We also see there are several commercially made capacitors in the same part of the circuit where this gold chamber appears, which would indicate that if the designer wanted capacitance at that location, he would simply insert another capacitor. It appears that the intended purpose for this gold-lined chamber was not to serve as a capacitor. If the gold chamber was intended to detect supposed nano-crashes from love ions, then we see evidence from many people who used mineoro LRLs that say it does not work. We can read many reports where people are wondering why the Mineoro FG locators to not beep when they hold gold samples at the locator antenna or far away.... not even the sample gold plate that Mineoro shipped with the LRL will make beeps. They wonder why the Mineoro locators do not respond to gold at all: Quote:
The only exception is a few treasure hunters in Europe report that some Mineoro locators can find a very large treasure from a short distance if it is a lucky day when environmental conditions are good. Of course, it is easy to see from the Mineoro circuits that their locators are capable of detecting VLF over a fairly wide band, and static charge anomalies which may be found in the vicinity of the box. This is not the same as detecting buried metal. And according to most of the reports from users, Mineoro locators do not detect buried metal. Is it possible that the gold cylinder inside the Mineoro locators does not classify gold? Do you think anyone has been successful at locating fresh gold with a Mineoro fresh gold (FG) locator like the FG79, FG80, or FG90 besides Alonso and his factory helpers? Best wishes, J_P
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Linear Mode
