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#1
02-04-2013, 11:33 PM
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Are you interested how LRLs really work?
If YES:
provide and help to get useful, technical, electronical, reliable test-experience, concrete and other HARD FACTS !  if NO: play your miserable mysterious-chandler games somewhere else!  I'm so sick of it! Stupid timewasting "bla bla blas" all over this forum!
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#2
02-05-2013, 09:52 AM
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Funfinder - In order to balance the information provided in Chapter 13 of Inside the METAL DETECTOR, I spent some of my valuable time in investigating the claims of the PDK. My findings were presented in Chapter 14, and resulted in the LRL design referred to as TOTeM. In the same way as HammerHead is a learning platform for PI detectors, and Raptor is a learning platform for VLF, the TOTem pistol detector is designed as an experimental platform for electronic LRLs. Unlike the other designs on this site, all the information is provided. Nothing is hidden, and all the facts are open for everyone to see. The device acts like the PDK, passes all the laboratory tests described throughout this forum, and even appears to following a "signal line" when in use. Whether this will lead you to untold riches is maybe a different story, but at least I've provided you with the tools you need to experiment. A couple of members have started building TOTeM, but so far I've not heard of any results (good or bad). Perhaps they're all lounging around on a desert island enjoying their new found riches.
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#3
02-07-2013, 08:42 AM
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Hi Qiaozhi
Very good, you see the hole thing from a scientific and technical point of view, too. What is that TOTeM abbreviation thing? In german tot means dead plus em = dead EM Field locator! And this is a very good decribition for those kind of detectors!  You're talking about "laboratory tests passed" - what has been tested exactly - earth magnetical field, 60kHz longwave directional signal distortions, electrostatic fields? At least we must exclude 2 of the here described detection-methods to get a clear picture. >Perhaps they're all lounging around on a desert island enjoying their new found riches. Absolutly. On an island at the Bahamas, Maldives or Hawaii, drinking champage or coconutmilk and looking for pirate-treasures you can't find without LRL. 
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#4
02-07-2013, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
www.geotech1.com/itmd
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#5
02-09-2013, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
 btw. congrats Qiaozhi & Carl for the book and much success as authors. I also have written already some books, 15 years ago. You please may upload an excerpt so I know what's goining on "inside the inside the metal detector book". Oh - you still wonder what means: OTLD? Outside The Longrange-Detector!
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#6
02-09-2013, 01:52 PM
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#7
02-10-2013, 04:44 AM
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And this ITMB-book should not became another "pseudo-secret-key" to pseudonotworking LRL circuits. It starts with "you must read the book otherwise I won't tell you the meaning of TOTeM" and ends with:You must buy the book or you can't construct those ominous TOTeM circuits! No, because I don't buy "LRL-device-cats in bags" and I also don't buy "LRL-circuit-cats-in-bags"! No clever person should!  Otherwise the creators of this ITMD book are on the same step as those mysterious-chandlers begining from hung over Morgan to Geo! This forum even is all around being skeptical about all those fabulous and unconfirmed LRL claims!
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#8
02-10-2013, 06:37 AM
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I not supply anything. Not trying to sell anything. What i do, it's just my hobby. You try to represent Crypton in Europe and make a procurement from them. You try to win against from these lrls. You're a liar, a hypocrite and a fraud.. Sometimes show opponents of lrls , and sometimes trying to sell lrls... 
__________________
Geo
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#9
02-10-2013, 06:06 PM
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The PDK story
Quote:
well,I made many tests with many metal detectors and LRLs,I found many objects with the old Alonsos PD, and PDK-2 and PDK-3, I know when the LRL mark a real spot,no coincidence.
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#10
02-10-2013, 10:17 PM
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We have already explored several types of long range locator (LRL) in the previ- ous chapter, but the pistol detector (PD) is a curious beast that warrants a chapter all to itself. Firstly, the term “pistol detector” does not refer to an ability to detect pistols, but instead describes the mechanical construction and the way it is held. Traditional metal detectors have a search coil attached to a long stem that is swept back and forth across the surface of the ground. In contrast the PD is held at chest height, some con- siderable distance above the ground, in the manner of a pistol; see Figure 14-1 for a typical example. The search coil on the device points forwards in a horizontal fashion, and not downwards. The general idea behind this device is to detect any anomalies, which may be present in the background electromagnetic noise, which might be asso- ciated with longtime buried treasure. It is easy to dismiss LRLs as working by self-deception, because the final recov- ery is nearly always performed using a conventional metal detector. However, in the case of the PD, the device incorporates a TR-type detector that can be used to pin- point the target. Therefore it is difficult to use the same argument as for the other LRLs, because there is no doubt, in the case of a recovered target, that the PD was involved. The important question is whether this device has any credibility as an LRL, or is this just another case of wishful thinking? Note that many LRL proponents claim the PD is really a medium range locator (MRL) with detecting distances mea- sured in meters rather than kilometers. . . . . . The chapter continues with a description of the PD, and a discussion of the "phenomenon" that is supposedly associated with longtime buried gold. The TOTeM design begins with the receiver, followed by the TX circuit. There is a short section on the sky and compass effects, and how the overall design is used to detect the anomaly. We then proceed to coil nulling (using a unique technique). Finally we ask the question "But Does it Actually Work?". Here's a small part of the answer: The purpose of this project was to develop a “working” experimental platform for anyone wishing to investigate this grey area of metal detecting. This is a highly speculative area of research, and there is absolutely no guarantee of success. Remem- ber... here there be dragons! The technical descriptions conclude with: At the very start of this chapter it states “The TOTeM Project”, but what is the meaning? Is it? 1. Because you can see a long way from the top of a totem pole? (ie. A tenuous reference to long range locating.) 2. An abbreviation of Totally Electromagnetic? 3. Or simply a “Trick Of The Mind”? Whatever you believe, have fun building and experimenting with this device. Lastly we end the chapter with full constructional details. There are 21 pages in Chapter 14, so it's not an empty discussion of PDKs. This was a real attempt at producing a pistol detector from scratch, and not just another clone. It reacts in the same way as the Alonso PD, and offers both passive and active modes, with an audio output that can be turned on or off, LED indication (both analog and digital), and a meter (switchable between slow and fast response). If an anomaly truly exists, then TOTeM should be able to detect it. Now there is nothing stopping anyone building their own PDK for a fraction of the cost of a commercial unit, and then making up their own mind as to whether the phenomenon exists or not. So, it's up to you!
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#11
02-11-2013, 10:33 AM
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Hi Qiaozhi
I agree with you and also i will like to ask who design ToTEM schematic? Regards Nelson Quote:
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#12
02-11-2013, 07:15 PM
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#13
02-11-2013, 10:43 PM
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If it not already done, it could be interesting to make the RX coil adjustable in frequency so it could be tuned to some broadcast frequency, like a giant two-boxes.
As you say the TOTeM is an interesting platform. (But because of the lower case "e", it has to be a "Trick of the mind" :P )
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#14
02-11-2013, 11:07 PM
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However, I would like to know what other non-skeptics think. Whether you are skeptical or not, this is an electronic LRL, and therefore should be unaffected by the operator's beliefs. Anyone can take a White's Coinmaster to the park and find buried coins. Believing they're there is not a prerequisite.
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#15
02-13-2013, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Geo, your technical info is near worthless, thats why I call you a mysterious-chandler. You are blocking real scientifical investigations and indirectly protecting the fraud circuits of Mineoro. If those circuits and devices would be really good, Alonso wouldn't need such cheap tricks to "rob" 10.000s of dollars from people by suggesting them the Mineoro would work as shown or advertised. Who do you think you are, together with Morgan the holy grail keepers of the great Mineoro LRL secrets? You can keep your LRL and your anyway useless knowledge for your self, don't waste my precious time with this crap! > You try to represent Crypton in Europe Are you crazy - I'm just very interested in this device because it really seems it works reliable, it has a fair price and it is for sale. Too bad for greedy mysterious-chandlers who like to make a superbig secret out of their circuits and selfmade-stuff. Before I would represent Crypton in Europe I would make scientifical tests how good this device really works. So Geo don't tell cheap fairytale-stories! > You're a liar, a hypocrite and a fraud.. Sometimes show opponents of lrls , and sometimes trying to sell lrls... You must live in a world full of illusions, making such pointless accusations. Dream on if you can't face the truth. > Sometimes show opponents of lrls , and sometimes trying to sell lrls... Show me where did it tried to sell LRL - you can't! And of course I am the opponent against fraud LRLs! Do you think I let BS myself from all kind of fraudsters and liars in this world? For shure not! Idiots can't fool me, not by religion, not by esoteric and for shure not by nonworking electronical pseudo device crap!
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#16
02-13-2013, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Can you imagine that companies like Mineoro and OKM will give the same arguments like you? They also will say: We have sold dozens or even hundreds of units and we got alot good feedback, otherwise our company would have been closed for a long time already. Talking about extreme sensitivity: Of course metal objects will change the quality of EM-fields, but on an extremly low level by natural magnetism, radio stations and other stuff. You even can measure extremly weak temperature differences on the ground if there is concrete or old walls below. A radio-engineer I know put a 3x3m reflector metal-sheet at some mountain so a person at a shadow region could watch TV. The big question is: How reliable is the used technical principle. Personally I'm absolutly shure you can't built such stuff by DIY !!! No chance! You need extremly stabilized circuits, you need PLL synthesizers for frequency stability, you need chip supervising circuits so the energy-level will be auto-adjusted to all kind of different country-environments and much more. The voltage has to be high stabilized. You even need a special balance circuit because while walking every step will give a different detector-ground distance which results in a changing field-level, not just static, also the usual EM-Field. Simple test: put a radio on the groundfloor and on the roof and see the signal-quality difference! No wonder you and Mineoro have such big problems with calibration, re-calibration every 10 minutes. If such a high-sensitivity circuit is not special stabilized, you will even get problems if the temperature is changing, because temperature changes the electric attributes of alot electronical parts, not just batteries. I know about high-sensitivity, I made my Garrett Pro Pointer double-sensitive and I work all time with it at this high sens. level, but it needs special care and a good feeling for whats good and whats "wrong" signals sometimes. For me this is no question of "believing", because I know enough to imagine that it could work under special conditions, but for me it's a question of reliable usage. Morgan, if you put already 1000s of hours into the development or better refinement of that old known circuit and you got now some "working" results, then I give you my Congratulation because you have deserved it. Seen from an technical and universal point of view I think that whole LRL-thing can't made up this way! We have millions or billions of satisfied LCD-TV, PS3 and Bluray-player users throughout this world and we have a hand full of satisfied LRL-device users! We even have 100.000s of happy metal-detector users !!! Do you see the correlation or the difference? Thats why either this stuff has to be made professionally so everyone is satisfied - or not at all! Those homebrew LRLs are just a huge source for frustration, time- and moneywasting! And this Forum should do something against this. It should help to create either real working LRLs and if the here posting mysterious-chandlers are not willing to help they can go home and stop their useless hints and mambo jambo! Absolutly right, we don't need any "hung science" here and nothing explaining unreadable micro-circuits BS! We need no impostors and confidence-tricksters! Without proofs they can tell they have visited already the Mars or the Jupiter, its the same story as with their great LRL success-describtions! Mysterious chandler stories without any hard evidence! I have to stop now, I reply later more, sorry Qiaozhi & others! This "pretty useless LRL topic" consumes too much of my precious time as long as things here don't change extremly into the real scientifical working direction!
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#17
02-14-2013, 04:56 PM
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@ Qiaozhi
Thanx Qiaozhi for the book excerpt and the double meaning TOTeM abbrevation describtion. > does not refer to an ability to detect pistols, Some humor, always good. Doesn't use James Bond 007 golden pistols? > which may be present in the background electromagnetic noise, which might be asso- ciated with longtime buried treasure. That's a good describtion, but with may and might we don't get any real scientifical step further. > It is easy to dismiss LRLs as working by self-deception Absolute full ACK > because the final recov- ery is nearly always performed using a conventional metal detector. This is an indirectly proof LRLs don't work, otherwise it would be possible to reduce the LRLs sensitivity if the treasure-hunter comes near the find! This issue could be excluded on a special test-field for LRLs where only a few finds are locatable and the test-leader knows these locations. > However, in the case of the PD, the device incorporates a TR-type detector that can be used to pin- point the target. This is absolutly no good idea, a 2 detectors in one circuit, as long as the LRL detection principle is not clear! And pinpoint-circuit can negativly affect the LRL. A working LRL circuit has the main priority, an additional pinpointing usual detector should be and remain a complete different story. > Therefore it is difficult to use the same argument as for the other LRLs, because there is no doubt, in the case of a recovered target, that the PD was involved. Such a way of working almost increases self-deception structures! It blurres the possibility for getting a clear pro or contra LRL result. > The important question is whether this device has any credibility as an LRL, or is this just another case of wishful thinking? Correct, but to solve this question we need better methods. > Note that many LRL proponents claim the PD is really a medium range locator (MRL) with detecting distances mea- sured in meters rather than kilometers. Even a few meters detection distance are OK as long as it helps to find treasures; of course this distance hast to be better than with 1m coil or 2 box etc. . . . TOTEM doesn't mean Trick Of The Mind but: Theoretically maybe Or Totally not working EM-field-detector! > design begins with the receiver, followed by the TX circuit. There is a short section on the sky and compass effects, and how the overall design is used to detect the anomaly. We then proceed to coil nulling (using a unique technique). Thats good work I can fully underline. > "But Does it Actually Work?". Here's a small part of the answer: The purpose of this project was to develop a “working” experimental platform for anyone wishing to investigate this grey area of metal detecting. This is a highly speculative area of research, and there is absolutely no guarantee of success. Not good, this is the same with Aliens. Huge titel-lines "Yes, there must be Aliens outthere" there are so many billion planets out there, but finally: No, sorry, we have no proofs at all. > 2. An abbreviation of Totally Electromagnetic? > 3. Or simply a “Trick Of The Mind”? If somebody throws a coin in the air and gets head or tales this also is no trick of the mind. It all depends on reliable test conditions and electronical knowledge. > Whatever you believe, have fun building and experimenting with this device. The fun would be greater if the motivation for a shure working device would be possible. Thats not the case. > There are 21 pages in Chapter 14, so it's not an empty discussion of PDKs. This was a real attempt at producing a pistol detector from scratch, and not just another clone. Good, seems you tried technically your best at that area. > It reacts in the same way as the Alonso PD, and offers both passive and active modes, with an audio output that can be turned on or off, LED indication (both analog and digital), and a meter (switchable between slow and fast response). So this means if Morgan builts and tests the TOTeM he will find his test-treasures the same as with his PDK (at all, doesn't matter if not the same good, but it works) ?! > If an anomaly truly exists, then TOTeM should be able to detect it. Now there is nothing stopping anyone building their own PDK for a fraction of the cost of a commercial unit, and then making up their own mind as to whether the phenomenon exists or not. > So, it's up to you! OK, a good argument for electronical experienced treasure-hunters to get this book - but with some exceptions: The term "phenomenon" suggests an undiscovered secret force-field or other scientifically not granted or known "treasure-aura". Almost like in a fairytale where the cursed treasures shines in the dark. If it really would be "phenomenon", the PDK and TOTeM also would be phenomenon, a magical device that is capable to detect the so far, on a scientifical basis seen, undetectable. To make it simple: For an electronically educated person it should just need one short look at the circuit diagram and he knows what this circuit detects !!! And if a person has no explanation it will ruin its reputation. Is the TOTeM circuit a magnetometer? NO - a short look at the schematic and you know it can't be a magnetometer. Is it a TR or IB metal detector? Yes, if you have incorporated a second circuit, but thats not really good, cause it has nothing to do with long range detection. Is it a Long Wave receiver?! YES, it is! Bingo! Does it work like those youtube metal-detecors you can built out of an little AM radio?! YES, it works like that! Does it detect electrostatic charges?! NO, because in that case it would need totally different technique. Does it detect ions? No, because it is no geiger counter for X-Rays! Does it works on infra-red basis? No, it has no infrared receiving diodes. Does it work with the natural extremly low nature frequency? No. Does it work directional? Yes, but almost the same as an AM-radio with inbuilt ferrite antenna. I hope this little enumeration makes it clear that there is no place for any obscure "phenomenon"-describtions! A short look to the receiver-stage and you and any skilled electronic knowing person should or better must know whats get detected and what not! It would be thousand times better to exclude all not fiting or qualifying "ways of possible detection" and trying to improve and analyze the working one, rather than speaking of "phenomenon". A person may be able to detect phenomenons with a magic wand (but both is pure fantasy), but not with a device made out of electronical parts. Its also pure wish-thinking detecting ghosts with electrometers. We must find a clear seperation line between mystical beliefes and real existing and recreatable research-results.
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#18
02-14-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
> TOTeM is not simply a clone of the Alonso PDK, and is not connected to the work done by Morgan, Geo and others. But then - what makes you shure your selfcreated circuit will have any LRL detection capabilities at all? The same or at least some modified "Alonso receiver input-circuits"? > However, it is (like the Alonso PD) able to detect metal objects at short distances for the purposes of pinpointing. But this is not the main task for such a device. Every litte 10 bucks DIY-market metal-searcher can used for pinpoint. Morgan and Geo for shure won't be happy if their PDK only works for pinpointing. I hope one of them has tested the TOTeM first so there's at least some small chance it really is able to detect somehow similar the same on longrange as their ovbiously working PDKs. > At times you can appear to be following a "signal Line", but whether this has anything to do with buried treasure is for you to determine. Is this the same signal line also Morgan and Geo are evidently able to detect or is this now a complete different one? I hope the TOTeM is not just a simple electro-compass combined with usual TR/IB circuit.
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#19
02-15-2013, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Read what you wrote on 10-15-2011 """"We can see here a working LRL that is based on the known principle of electrolytical current EM wave distortion but it also works under moist conditions. This unit will be produced in Greece in a few weeks/months and I will test and support it for middle europe. """ Also you wrote """The unit will be available for a very fair and low price and it will be a huge improvement for all treasure hunters!""" Yes//// 4000Euro++, but it is not 5000Euro. So low price for all treasure hunters Here the post with your text....... http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...89&postcount=1
__________________
Geo
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#20
02-15-2013, 08:32 AM
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Again the same post...... http://www.longrangelocators.com/for...89&postcount=1 So are you a Liar or not????
__________________
Geo
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#21
02-15-2013, 06:13 PM
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The Alonso PD also has a built-in short range capability in order to pinpoint the target. With TOTeM you can select either active (TX+RX) or passive mode (RX only). This flexibility allows the user to experiment with both options.
As I said previously, there are no guarantees. TOTeM passes all the laboratory tests, and appears to work in the same way as the Alonso PD. So ... does it detect longtime buried gold at long or medium range? ... who knows? ... you might get lucky.
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#22
02-15-2013, 06:35 PM
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Are you crazy - I'm just very interested in this device because it really seems it works reliable, it has a fair price and it is for sale. Too bad for greedy mysterious-chandlers who like to make a superbig secret out of their circuits and selfmade-stuff. Before I would represent Crypton in Europe I would make scientifical tests how good this device really works. So Geo don't tell cheap fairytale-stories! > You're a liar, a hypocrite and a fraud.. Sometimes show opponents of lrls , and sometimes trying to sell lrls... Geo, either you are the liar or you must be completly blind! Stop writing sh*t about me! > Geo wrote: > You try to represent Crypton in Europe I wrote: This unit will be produced in Greece in a few weeks/months and I will test and support it for middle europe. (in 2011) Can't you read? First, this has to be clear, this unit would must be tested by me, very serious and strong tests, not comparable with the usual LRL self-deception others do. Next, given that I can really take the responsibility to support it, of course I will help that other treasure hunters will be informed about this device. btw. I had no contact with Andreas since 1 year because the infra-structure and whole business incl. sellable products wasn't made up at this time. And it may still take a long time until I will have the opportunity to test either the OBMD-1 or the Mini. So stop spreading false claims Geo that construct the impression that I would be some sort of business-representative of Crypton, Greece or you are the liar. Seems you are just jealous about Andreas because he has success and he has constructed a LRL device that at least seems to be that reliable so he can risk it to sell it for money without fear to go into jail for fraud etc. What do you wanna achieve here in this forum? Making technical interested people down and steal their time? It's clear from you no good technical useful info ever will come! You and hung seems to hate scientific investigation thats why you act so strange and irrational. Persons like you have not the smallest interrest in giving really useful info to help builing a real working LRL detector! And now you even start quoting old texts and try to make it look the content completly different. Enough, don't waste my time anylonger here!
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#23
02-15-2013, 07:19 PM
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I understand, but who needs all those mights and maybes!? If I go into some electronic-shop and the seller tells me: "Look at this beautiful LCD-TV for 5000 Euros! Switch it on an you might see a picture" I would ask if he has eaten a clown for breakfast. Buying the book and tinkering this TOTeM together may costs 100 bucks in total including 10 hours or something of time so no big loss. But for instance no mental sane person would ask Morgan for a PDK that costs around 500 bucks and he just tells him: "Thanks for the money but now this is pure luck if you find something!" We wanna have a clear YES like Morgan seems be indeed able to give after his test with the PDK or a clear NO as Carl is able to give after looking into the boxes of some technically and electronically completly absurd "fraud LRL scam and rip off devices". OK now lets see it very optimistical - what may be the outcome of this ITMD book if 100 DIY-guys create this TOTeM? Will we get a representative result in form of: 60 persons found an old object at long distance with this device 40 persons don't ????? And what would be the worth of such result if no really clever testing-situation was created before? People tell alot stories if the day is long. Why the hell no one in this forum (besides Morgan) seems to be able to test one of those ******* LRLs if they work or not????????? Give me one of those silly detectors and I will test it for you within 1 day if it has a real worth or not, if it really is capable to find something at long distance! How long shall this go on in this forum? In 10 years still nobody here has the slightest clue if it works or not, hmm? But without me, I have more important to do than listening over and over again to the same unsatisfiying and useless stories! We have the year 2013, we are flying to the moon and can see the most distant stars, but finding out if a cheap 40 component circuit works and what it detects is a book of seven seals and completly impossible ????? Please, come serious. And the best of it: There are people out there that throw away 1000s of bucks for such absurd stuff! I start getting the impression that absolutly NO ONE here in this forum is really interested to find out the truth and the scientifical technical reasons why and if it works or not works! So the question: Are you interested how LRLs really work? is answered! It starts with our holy-schematic-grail-keepers, goes forward with persons that don't know how to proof if something really works (seting up failproved testfields etc.) and ends with clueless electronic-engineers! And all because of some stupid kindergarten-detection-circuits! Absolute ridiculous and unbelievable situation! Even the ITMD book refuses to give a clear answer. Not good, because it means that even the pros don't know enough about this important topic. Bad luck for all the treasure hunter amateurs and LRL-interested ones out there. 
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#24
02-15-2013, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
 Dell
__________________
  "WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE"
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#25
02-15-2013, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Remember, I'm a skeptic, and therefore my opinion is that all of these LRLs "work" by a trick of the mind. However, that doesn't stop me providing you with the necessary tools to experiment and make your own decision on the subject. If Morgan and Geo state that their LRLs definitely work, and other people say the opposite, then who will you believe? You have to figure it out for yourself. If you build TOTeM and then find a treasure, what will you believe then? Was it pure chance, or does the phenomenon really exist? You can continue to ask the same questions again and again, but at the end of the day it's up to you. Do the experiments as I have done, and then you'll know the answer. Chapter 14 of ITMD provides you with the opportunity to experiment with a pistol detector design for a minimal cost and make up your own mind. That is quite simply its purpose ... nothing more ... and with no guarantees whatsoever. 
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Linear Mode
