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#1
03-23-2011, 01:59 AM
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MFD Frequencies?
MFD Question for Tim Williams
Hi Tim, I started a new thread to ask this question because it may lead to a discussion that is not relevant to the H3Tec testimonial thread where it arose from. You have established your position that MFD is not the same method as MRI, and does not use magnetic detection methods at all. While you don't explain how MFD can work or even make a claim that MFD works, you do acknowledge that some people find buried things when they are using MFD signal generators. My question is about MFD frequencies. I am not opening this thread to argue about whether MFD works or not, only to ask about the frequencies used in MFD methods. You have stated that MFD methods incorporate a signal generator which uses frequencies found in a table listing the NMR frequencies known to exist in the magnetic field found on the earth. Quote:
As you described above, there are NMR frequencies in the audio range for most substances you would want to search for. We also see people often posting questions of what frequencies to use. It seems strange to me that anyone would ask. These frequencies are published in many reference databases. The only variation of any big importance would be the local earth magnetic field and temperature. The average local magnetic fields of most locations on earth are published in databases, and the temperature can be found with a thermometer. (I suppose you would be interested in the ground temperature at the depth you want to hunt for a treasure). If you wanted an exact correction for the earth's magnetic field, then you could take a portable magnetometer to your treasure hunting site and measure it. With this information, you could know with good precision what the NMR frequency is for any element. Yet we see people keep posting requests for information of what frequency to use. This seems silly, because the NMR frequency is not the same in one location as it is in another, simply because the magnetic field strength and the temperature are not the same. They would obviously find a more precise NMR frequency by looking at the NMR tables and applying the correction factor for local temperature and field strength: g = hv/BH Secondly, we know the earth's magnetic field and temperature are constantly changing enough as time passes to make a substantial change in the frequency. This is another reason why it would be appropriate to periodically check the temperature and magnetic field strength to adjust for the changed NMR frequency. And even after we arrive at the calculated frequency, there will be minor adjustments to be made to correct for chemical impurities at the sample which will change the frequency. So according to the same scientists who publish NMR data, we see the exact NMR frequency will be different when we change the magnetic field strength, the temperature, or the chemical invironment of the sampled element. This means the NMR frequency will be different when any of the following variables change: 1. temperature of the ground where the sample is located 2. chemistry of the ground where the sample is located, and impurities in the sample 3. time of day as the magnetic field and temperature changes 4. magnetic field changed from geographic location where the sample is being measured 5. materials in the ground or near the sample that concentrate magnetic field such as black sand, iron objects, magnetic rocks, etc. The biggest variable is the geographical location, which can cause the frequency to become double or reduce to half because of the magnetic field strength can vary from double to half. And the other variables seem to be constantly changing to such a degree I would want to check my calibration every 15 minutes or so to be reasonably close to the actual NMR frequency of an element. I can envision carrying a portable magnetometer and a probe-style thermometer I could poke into the ground. But I would see no usefulness to ask people in other locations what is the frequency. This is because other locations seem very irrelevant to the NMR frequencies where I am located, considering I am at a different place and time. So there is my question: Why do people use standard fixed frequencies for MFD methods when we know the NMR frequencies are not standard fixed frequencies for the earth field in different locations and different times? Why wouldn't a person adjust his frequency to the actual NMR frequency that is found at the time and place where he is located? I also have a second question: Why would anyone want to use a harmonic of a frequency when the fundamental NMR frequency resonates stronger? Best wishes, J_P 
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#2
03-23-2011, 02:26 AM
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Yes yes to all of the above! Very good. This is where I get my fields in nt.
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/IGRFWMM.jsp They use fixed because they don't know. When you are at the fundamental frequency temp does not bother you as much as harmonics. Good job!
__________________
Bringing metal detectors into the world of imaging! 
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#3
03-23-2011, 08:10 AM
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Hi J_player ant Tim Williams
I study about NMR and function generator with lords . Carl MFD article use sinuses Wave and Carl VR 800 article use 555 as repeated pulses . it produced wide range Harmonic frequencies ( saw on spectrum analyzer screen) . Both wave method generation with LRODS produce behavior result . Maybe LRODS with transmitter base on NMR . finally I cannot fined method base on theory  !!!Therefore released this subject at that time !!! . But also I am interest know more in The mater . Best regards.
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#4
03-23-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
I never saw any evidence that a function generator can find hidden substances. There is no base theory to support this idea that makes any sense to me. But there is a theory about oscillating motions that resonate. The theory is that oscillating things tend move in a sinusoidal motion when they are oscillating mechanically or if they have charges or currents moving in a circular motion. The theory suggests they will resonate with other oscillating things that are moving in a sinusoidal motion, whether mechanical or electronic. When we look at the 555 timer oscillators, these are usually producing square wave output that is sent to dowsing rods or to the ground. This square wave represents a huge amount of odd harmonic sinusoidal oscillations mixed together, even though there is no electronic mixer (see here for some theory: http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14.../14181_190.htm ). The result can be expected to be different from the same oscillator which is producing a well-formed sinusoidal wave instead of a square wave. I don't know from experience, but I would expect a sine wave to respond mostly to other things resonating at the same frequency or a harmonic of it in reduced amounts. And I would expect the square wave to respond the same as the sine wave, except I would expect the square wave to resonate much stronger with the harmonic frequencies you are not interested in. But that is just a guess based on what the Fourier transforms look like when we see the harmonics and noise levels. Since we have no working model for MFD due to no understandable theory of resonant transmission and coupling for MFD, we can make a model with an acoustic system that has a large pipe organ and an audio sound generator. Let us suppose we set up the sound generator (audio amplifier) in front of the organ pipes and turn it on to make a sine wave at one frequency. We will expect the pipe that is tuned to the same frequency to resonate and make a sound we can hear. We would also expect pipes which resonate at the second, third and other harmonics to make weaker sounds. When we listen to sounds from pipes that resonate at much higher harmonic numbers of the fundamental frequency, we would expect their resonant sounds to become weaker. Now, if we were to switch the audio sound generator to make a square wave, then I would expect much more of the wave energy is being sent to other harmonic frequencies rather than concentrating only at the fundamental frequency. I would expect the organ pipes tuned to harmonic frequencies to be making louder resonating sounds than when the sine wave sound was played. I would also expect the sound from the fundamental resonating pipe will not be heard as well as when we had a sine wave because its sound is becoming lost in the noise of the unwanted pipes filling the air with sounds at various odd harmonic frequencies. If we translate this model into detecting objects with electronic resonance, it would mean we are more likely to detect the object with the same resonant frequency if we are using a sine wave. And if we are using a square wave, we are more likely to become confused by the false objects we are detecting at harmonics of the oscillator frequency. There are also other wave shapes which produce various harmonic distributions of the fundamental frequency of the oscillator, and may cause strange results if you are trying to couple only to the object which has the same frequency as the oscillator. Another thing to consider if you are expecting to find atoms oscillating at their NMR frequency when they are buried in the ground is they are not in a uniform magnetic field. This means that for any element, not all the atoms are oscillating at the same frequency. The un-evenness of the earth's field in most ground will cause the Fourier distribution to become mushy instead of a sharp peak that only rings at a single frequency. This means your resolution goes way down, and it becomes difficult to detect the object you want if there are other objects that have similar NMR frequencies nearby. The overlap of frequencies could easily confuse to cause a number of false detections which turn out to be some different element than what you are looking for. This is a condition where noise becomes a more prominent factor in the method of detection. For people who are not technical, I just said I expect a sine wave works better than a square wave for resonant coupling. And I expect it to be very difficult to identify elements by their NMR frequencies if they are buried and are only in the earth's magnetic field instead of being placed inside a very strong and uniform magnetic field coil. And I said I don't think any of this resonant NMR stuff can work for MFD oscillators. And I also said it is possible I made some errors in my description above. Some of what I wrote is based on the theory rather than my experience. Best wishes, J_P
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#5
03-23-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
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#7
03-23-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
hopefully if people know there is no fixed frequencies for NMR, we will stop reading requests for these frequencies clogging up our pages. Quote:
Best wishes, J_P
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#8
03-23-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
The question (by definition) is pointless.
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#9
03-23-2011, 02:39 PM
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“Another thing to consider if you are expecting to find atoms oscillating at their NMR frequency when they are buried in the ground is they are not in a uniform magnetic field. This means that for any element, not all the atoms are oscillating at the same frequency. The un-evenness of the earth's field in most ground will cause the Fourier distribution to become mushy instead of a sharp peak that only rings at a single frequency”
J_player All of you said is correct and I am agree with you. “For people who are not technical, I just said I expect a sine wave works better than a square wave for resonant coupling” I did this test , LRODS work random !!!!.same times show me target place was correct And sometimes not correct . Strange point is here , The persons who believe LRODS is working good with more success and the persons don’t believe LRODS , without any success . !!!!!! I cannot say as I couldn’t found theory , then therefore , there isn’t correct LRODS . For this reason , I think as Qiaozhi said for several times in other threads in this forum . “It is only trick of Mind “. Best regards.
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#10
03-23-2011, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
I found the exact same response from L-rods and from swivel handle LRL. This makes me think not it is a trick of my mind. It makes me think that random pointing will point to targets some times and point away from targets other times, all by random chance. I see no trick. I see only random non-working rods and swivel handles. For believers maybe it is a trick that makes their rods point to the target more times. As long as they refuse to demonstrate their rods pointing to the target more times than random in a blind test, people will continue to think it is a trick. But since we are only talking about NMR frequencies in this thread, I will save my discussions of whether MFD and rods work or not for other threads. Best wishes,  J_P
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#11
03-23-2011, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Regarding "trick of the mind," that's a phrase I've used a lot to describe the "dowsing reaction" people get with dowsing rods and LRLs. That is, the "tugging" or "hesitation" feeling. What people feel is truly a mind trick, nothing more. The overall use of a dowsing device, and the results obtained, are not a trick of the mind, but a result of knowledge (I already know where the target is at), intuition (this looks like a likely place to hunt), and blind luck (the random part). That's why, in a randomized blind test where knowledge and intuition are removed, the results are consistently blind luck. The funny thing is, practically all of the vocal LRL proponents know this! Which is why they avoid and even outright belittle any kind of scientific test. - Carl
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#12
03-23-2011, 06:02 PM
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#13
03-23-2011, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
As you said , and as my experiment , when I know place of buried metals , could detect by LRODS . and when I didn’t know couldn’t detect . only one thing also strange for me , I remember at place of this forum I saw movie about LRODS which powered by radioactive and sample . in this movie I saw the person didn’t know hidden place of sample , but lords Pointed correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best regards.
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#14
03-23-2011, 06:42 PM
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“But since we are only talking about NMR frequencies in this thread, I will save my discussions of whether MFD and rods work or not for other threads.”
Hi J_player I remember saw cure about NMR in book. Resonance region is sharp. If assume LRODS Base on NMR . then we need very precision and high stable oscillator for example 4.9876445…khz Also we must be measure exactly magnetic vector amplitude at place of under search Area. But all of oscillators use with LRODS is simply oscillator without high stability design . Best regards.
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#15
03-23-2011, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
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#16
03-23-2011, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
If we were using MRI methods to determine if a particular substance is present, then the substance is placed in a very high strength uniform magnetic field which will produce a sharp center frequency where a pure substance will resonate. In this condition, it makes sense to adjust your oscillator to a fairly precise frequency. But when the same substance is placed in the earth magnetic field near the ground or under the ground, the field is 350 times weaker and not very uniform. In this condition, the center frequency for resonating is not a sharp narrow band. The center resonant frequency quickly becomes a wider band as we reduce the magnetic field and allow the non-uniform variations in field that we find near the ground. By the time we reach the earth field strength, the resonant frequency is lost in the noise. In the uneven earth field, the sample substance is resonating at many frequencies depending on the various magnetic field strengths that pass through the sample from anomalies in the earth field. You no longer have any use for a precision oscillator because there is no longer a precise single resonant frequency for the buried sample. Use any frequency you like, and you will get the same signal of nothing coming back from the sample. The wide frequency band and the weak response is so bad that we can only see noise, not even a hint of a resonant frequency. Take a look a the video which shows what happens to a sample when you are looking for the NMR frequency and you remove the sample from the high strength magnetic field: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPXbD..._order&list=UL You can see the difference... it no longer matters what you set the oscillator frequency for in the earth field because the resonant response has disappeared. The sample is no longer close enough to respond to the resonator. And if it was, you would find a very wide band shifted frequency which overlaps the noise. The high strength and uniform magnetic field was needed to make the resonant response visible above the background noise. See measured NMR response below... Does this give you some idea of why your trick of the mind theory seems to be a more likely explanation for why MFD users report success?
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#17
03-23-2011, 11:53 PM
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Correction: Here is the correct way
1. Start by finding the strength for your area. My area today was 55374 2. Convert this number to Tesla. Easiest way is just add four decimal places in front. So 55374 becomes .000055374 3. Divide 2.35/.000055374 = 43645 (remember you have to find the strength for your area). 4. Divide 1,754,000/43645 = 41.3 Hz
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#18
03-23-2011, 11:56 PM
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j_p remember the human nervous system and a good quality consciousness and good L-rod skill can filter the background noise out. Believe it or not.
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#20
03-24-2011, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
I bet you are right. I bet you can use your consciousness and your custom designed L-rods to filter out all awareness of tricks of the mind you may be experiencing. Best wishes, J_P
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#21
03-24-2011, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Hi J_Player You said exactly very well . yes , for some reason we cannot, find target by LRODS base On NMR . But I pointed to the subject here , the company in my country produced LRODS with Oscillator at far past , unfortunately I couldn’t work rally with it . I saw and study only user manual . Oscillator out put voltage was very high and apply to ground , from 12 volt / hi amperage battery . the variable electronic oscillator box with battery weight was 7 KG. 2 LROD connect to small box as named in manual “ receiver” . There are some switchs On receiver box to select metal type . if person when with LRODS while walk , if rods contact with together , produced big electrical shock for user !!!!!!!!!. Many users of this system said found items with successfully . for a longer time didn’t produced this system . this is interesting for me “ is high voltage oscillation is affected really visible long buried metals underground??” Please “ what is your opinion?” Best regards.
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#22
03-24-2011, 08:13 AM
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I will believe this works only if I can watch it work with my own eyes to pass a double blind test 7 times or more in 10 trials. Best wishes, J_P
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#23
03-24-2011, 10:22 AM
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Yes, I agree with you, I didn’t see real working with my eyes. only heard!!!!! But I want your opinions or other people opinions at this thread about applying High voltage variable frequency oscillator to ground????? Best regards.
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#24
03-24-2011, 11:28 AM
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#25
03-24-2011, 01:42 PM
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What interests us is the right result and not the name of the method. If it works I do not care if you named dowsing, pulse induction, vlf or anything else. But you probably have a problem with some words ....
__________________
Geo
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