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#1
02-07-2006, 04:58 PM
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Do you know what is this?
Hi everybody
sorry for my bad english, do you know this instrument? this is in a french book, chasse aux tresors methodes et techniques. It is based on Radioactive Isotopes  
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#2
02-15-2006, 05:45 AM
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I know what it is
I recognize that machine. It is a device made by Dr. Armin Bickel to detect underground oil, water, gold copper, silver and other ores. Dr. Bickel is an astrophysicist who studied in Germany with Werner von Braun and other rocket scientists. He worked for Nasa for years, building devices to be mounted in satellites that would chart the earth's mineral deposits. After retiring, He used the same technology to build the machine in your picture. It works by sensing weak gamma emanations from anomalies in the earth. When there is a deposit of ore under the earth directly below the senssor in his machine, the sensor will register a very weak signal that identifies the element by it's characteristic gamma energy level. The gamma energy actually originates from a very few radio isotopes of the element that are decaying in the ore deposit (yes, gold does have a couple of unstable radio isotopes). The computer part of the machine is what discriminates between silver, gold, copper, and other ores by recognizing the gamma energy signature being sensed. Dr. Bickel demenstrated this machine to me when I visited him in Lompoc, California. It will find ore deposits with pinpoint accuracy, but it is usually used in a small plane or a vehicle that is driven in a grid pattern to map a section of the earth's surface. After the map is made, the data is analyzed from a geological point of view to determine where to dig for mineral deposits. Most of his work was for large mining companies and oil companies. During my visit, he also showed ma a handful of gold nuggets he found during his travels making geological surveys for these companies. At the time I visited him (the early 1980s) these machines were being sold for about $8,000 to $10,000 for the model with the computer. He told me that after about 5 years, the sensing element seems to become less sensative, and is advisable to replace. These machines are rare. If you can find one then buy it and install a new sensor. You will then have a machine equivalent to the sensors in the US satellites that mapped the earth's minerals in the 1980s.
P.S. I am an engineer, and I have uite a bit more technical information about that machine if you are interested.
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#3
02-19-2006, 05:30 PM
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thank you for very interesting notices, but I dont have a isotopes gun. I'm an electronic hobbyst and I have realized some PI metal detectors, I'm interested to long range locator especially to Esteban' works and I think that Schumann frequency is very useful for this purpose.
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#4
02-19-2006, 05:31 PM
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thank you for very interesting notices, but I dont have a isotopes gun. I'm an electronic hobbyst and I have realized some PI metal detectors, I'm interested to long range locator especially to Esteban' works and I think that Schumann frequency is very useful for this purpose.
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#5
05-05-2006, 03:09 AM
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If this is the same machine, this machine is extremely rare, only 10 ever made.
I've seen this machine and it looks similar to that one. The man who uses it says it's the best he's ever known, and says it's extremely accurate. From the stories he told me, Dr Bickel was a very interesting and brilliant man. He has replaced the crystals. Does anyone know of any others? Does anyone have any other information on Dr. Bickel? PM Me Thanks
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#6
05-05-2006, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
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#7
05-05-2006, 08:10 AM
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Hi Positron,
I do not have the schematics for this machine, but I can tell you how it works. Actually it's pretty simple. there is a scintillation crystal inside a lead tube which acts as a shield so the crystal sees only radiation that enters from the open end of the tube. When gamma radiation or alpha radiation interact with the crystal, a faint fash of light is emitted from within the crystal. Behind the crystal is a photomultiplier, which magmifies the faint flashes of light so they are measurable. Once the flashes are measurable, they are converterd into electronic pulses, much like the pulses heard on an antique geiger counter. these pulses are sent to several controls to adjust for background radiation and set the null levels. After the adjustments are made, the resulting pulses are sent to a digital counter, analog meters, and to a chart recorder with the associated amplifiers to put the signal in the range of the meters and recorder. This machine is looking for anomolies in the radiation that enters the tube during a pattern scan of an area. IT also classifies the strength of the "flashes" of light, which will give data about what element caused the flash. The idea is to make a map similar to the magnetometer maps. The front end circuitry is a power supply for the photomultiplier and pulse shaping circuitry (1980's op amp circuitry) to adjust and classify the signal. There is also a section devoted to running the digital counter display, which is mostly discreet TTL or cmos digital counters and multiplexers. They didn't have single-chip numeric display drivers, so Dr. Bickel used individual digit drivers and counters cascaded together. Of course he had a rechargable battery and charger built into the machine. At the time of my visit to Dr. Bickel, he was selling 3 models: 1. The subterranean Isotope sensor "Algor Alpha" for prospector and mining Engineers mineral detection (vein and placer). $2000.00 (add $300.00 for chart recorder). 2. The Professional Isotope Sensor "Algor Alpha X" for geologists and engineers at mining exploration and evaluation mineral and water well detection. Extremely sensitive, used by car or plane (including recorder) $3400.00 3. The super-sensitive subterranean Isotope sensor "Algor explorer X" for use in minerals, oil, gas and water detection, mine exploration and evaluation, exploring new oil and gas fields, usable by car and plane. For sale only on a royalty of 2% on mineral, oil or gas detected by the instrument. $5000.00 GE and RCA photomultiplier tubes, and domestic crystals are not used on these devices because they are inadequate, while domestic crystals stop scintillating after a year. These parts are ordered from abroad. The electronics are all mil spec. The real secret that made his machines the best in the world is about the top quality components he used, and the detailed calibration of the circuitry. Dr. Bickel had been installing similar sensors on the Nasa satellites for years before he retired and started building sensors for the private community. Dr. Bickel gave me a copy of the operating manual for his machines. He said many people use his machine and others similar, but few understand how the machines work. It seems the most important thing is to learn the secrets of what causes the radioactive anomolies, and the geophysics involved in the objects under the ground. This is how you can be sucessful in accurately determining what is beneath the ground. Dr bickel's manual describes a lot about what causes false signals, and other hazards that can degrade the data. The part you are apparently most interested in is the circuitry. Here is the block diagram from his manual for his "Algor explorer X":
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#8
05-05-2006, 08:33 AM
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Hi all
Perhaps it's possible to build a similar instrument with a home made Geiger counter... The probleme it's to find a sample of gold for testing the instrument, as a fresh buried gold dont emit nothing..
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#9
05-05-2006, 08:51 AM
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Hi Franco,
All gold emits gamma radiation when in the metallic form. The problem is to build a machine sensitive enough to detect the minute traces of radiation from the stable nuclide 79Au196. Dr. bickel accomplished this by using scintilating crysrals from sources that sell only to government and military markets, and he used photomultiplier tubes that are better than anything avalible in the USA. In addition, He is an astrophysicist who knows geology and the physics of the formation of the elements, as well as how these physics will show up on the sensor device. He knows how to interpret the data based on the geological formations that he is scanning. Today's technology far surpasses what was available in the 1980s, and it is probable we can find photomultiplier tubes better than his at low cost. But the crystals come from a German supplier, and are still difficult to obtain. The remaining electronics is fairly easy as long as you know how to process the signals from the flashes of light to determine if you are looking at a gold isotope or silver, or copper, etc. (basic gamma spectroscopy techniques).
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#10
05-05-2006, 03:09 PM
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Hi J_Player,
Thank you so very much for that response, with photos. My uncle stayed with Dr.Bickel at his house while in CA, (70s'-80's). DR. Bickel gave him one of those models I presume, because it's an isotope counter. He said Dr. Bickel had a whole different approach to measuring anomolies, then mapping them. Everyone agreed that they needed to measure the radiation striking right before it leaves the ground, but Dr. Bickel said you need to measure it down further, where it meets oil and changes. I didn't really know much about Dr.Bickel or his units, but now I know some more. Thank you for that huge response, J_Player! How many pages are in the manual?
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#11
05-05-2006, 06:31 PM
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I'm going to make a www.Wikipedia.org page on Dr. Armin Bickel, since I found very little info about him and his work.
There's nothing on Wiki besides a group picture of operation paperclip on wiki.
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#12
05-06-2006, 03:55 AM
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I can add a little to your page. I only met with Dr. Bickel half a day, but in that time he taught me many things that I found amazing. Much lost science that was forgotten after the second world war. He gave me a short lecture on how the elements are formed from the time the earth begins to cool from a gas to the time it solidifies, and this lecture held the key to why his machins could work. The block diagram I posted above is from his earlier machines. His later machines had a small keyboard attached where you could program the filters to classify the elements throught gamma spectroscopy methods. It was amazing that he could build all these fucntions into a portable machine using mostly discreet electronics to control op amps and run the counters. Most of his design work and calibration could be easily replaced by single chip ICs made today. The only difficult part remaining in today's technological scene is to obtain top quality scintillator crystals and photomultipliers. And most important is to understand the geology and how it interacts with the radiation you are sensing.
Let me know when your Bickel page when it is finished. I can probably add some interesting things from Dr Bickel's manual. If your unkle knew Dr. bickel well, then he knew he was a dowser who used dowsing in conjucntion with his scintillators to find minerals and oil. It seems strange that he did exactly as Dell Winders, the only difference is he used real science that he was happy to demonstrate and explain to anybody who asked. His science was so real that Nasa paid millions to build the machines as he instructed, and paid him to lecture to their engineers after he retired. I still don't know how he could practice dowsing and still hold a job working for Nasa building scintillators into satellites. Near as I can figure, Nasa considered him irreplacable, in the same category as Einstein and Werner Von Braun, a necessary element in the rocket/nuclear program. Most engineers and physicists I know would never admit to dowsing.
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#14
05-06-2006, 04:44 AM
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The way I see it, if Hans Bethe, Enrico Fermi, Wernher von Braun etc...... have a Wiki page, so should this scientist. I also would like to point out the values/ethics he presented in the articles that I've read. I have seen my uncle reinforce these principles when major players were in the equation.
cheers
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#15
02-14-2008, 11:45 PM
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mmmm good
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#16
02-15-2008, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
 On the contrary, I often use so called real Science in conjunction with meta-physical Dowsing. One, an early private built instrument we used was called a Gamma Scan. The Gold in the Denver Colorado mint was used as a development test target from an aircraft up to as far away as 350 miles.We conducted preliminary surveys from great distances from the air, on land, and on the water. I used my own electronic, and passive LRL's to survey, confirm, and analyze the on site locations. I'm still called on occasionally to make site analysis taken with a newer version which gives shadowy images of buried targets on a tiny viewing screen. Oh yes, Dr.Werner Von Braun, was a friend. We used to SCUBA dive together. "WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell
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#17
02-15-2008, 04:07 AM
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Hi Dell,
Did you know Dr Bickel was a dowser? I sat in his laboratory where he calibrated the isotope detectors and saw a small pair of brass L-rods in black wooden handles. When I asked what those were for, he told me he takes them on field surveys along with his isotope detector. On the occasions when the isotope detector was giving false signals, he would excuse himself to take a walk behind the bushes where he would use the L-rods to try to determine which way the ore was. He showed me a handful of gold nuggets he collected on his trips to Alaska and Mexico. The biggest looked to be a little less than an ounce. He never said whether he found these with the L-rods or by other methods. I think he is the only scientist I ever met that did not mind saying he is a dowser. I guess if NASA needs you to prepare satellites for orbit, then you don't care who knows you are a dowser. Best wishes, J_P
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#18
02-15-2008, 02:19 PM
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No I didn't know about Dr. Bickel, but he may have had something to do with the Gamma Scan we used. I don't know. I'll have to ask.
A NASA earth Scientist was this dumb Hillbilly's mentor and advisor, for Harmonic Induction Frequency Discrimination. Using Dowsing Rods in the field is a often a ba$tar*ized combination of Physics, and meta-physics, depending on the methodology that is used. Dowsing a map, photo, or sketch is True mental, meta-physical Dowsing by definition. Dell
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#19
04-23-2008, 10:25 AM
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Hi Dell
Is there any machine in the market as good as the Dr. Bicket's isotope detector? Speaking of dowsin, I do dowsing just for water, I just do it for friends and I always get it correct and never miss. I can tell where the most powerful point of the water is and where to dig just by the numbers of turn of the fork in my hand.
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#20
04-23-2008, 01:32 PM
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Hi,
I think the machine of above is not, formerly speaking, an LRL. Sure the topic is relevant to remote sensing... but that kind of machines are not LRL as intented here, I mean for treasure hunting. Why ? Simple, the machine rely on a statistical principle that if enough mass of target of interest, e.g. gold in treasure hunters case, is buried/dispersed under ground it will have enough interaction with e.g. natural in-ground radioactive sources (e.g. radon gas and similar stuff) and elements in a way you can detect with scintillator etc etc the faint decaying signal of gamma-emission from unstable gold isotopes , counting that emissions etc in the time unit (over e.g. a minute or similar stuff). What is stupid and also presumptuous is assuming this kind of stuff could be used to find a buried treasure !  This is geo-survey stuff... and people using that stuff play with (often) hundred of tousands tons of stuff (think e.g. at oil reservoir) and radioactive behaviour due to that enormous presence of stuff under soil... not some gold chain or platinum ring!  So, unless you know there's the Moctezuma's treasure of many tons of gold buried under say 10cm soil you will do nothing even owning one of these pearls. I'm not discussing it could work on-board on a satellite or similar e.g. on an exploring well drill head.... but LRL for THs is not that thing guys! Wake up and forget about unprobable LRL dreams ! That's why I think people playing with LRL like some folks I don't wanna direct call (but I'm sure you understand who I mean) still continue selling snake oil here and CRAP to the FOOLS! It's very nice for pseudo-scientists or pseudo-nothing building theories upon existing, working techologies with direct assumption that same technologies and some other exotic stuff (like the pendulum crap) will work joint forces to make you find the buried pile!  Kind regards, Max
__________________
"Kill for gain or shoot to maim... But we dont need a reason " someone said...
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#21
04-23-2008, 02:55 PM
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There is no machine on the market that can do what the Bickel isotope detector does. The Bickel detector is no longer manufactured, but used units are sometimes sold for $10,000 or more, depending on what the owner wants to ask for his machine. The isotope detectors made for geotechnical surveys of minerals are different than laboratory gamma spectrometry equipment, which is lacking in the extreme sensitivity and the signal processing necessary for the required resolution when detecting naturally occurring isotope emissions. The currently available alternatives to a Bickel isotope detector cost well over $10,000, and are used mostly for airborne surveys over prospective mine sites. The few hand-held isotope detectors made for geotechnical surveys fall short of the performance found in the Bickel machines, but have made advances in recent years by using modern signal processing methods. Most of these machines are set up as 256-channel isotope detectors with electronics to remove or compensate for false counts and background signals from cosmic rays and other sources. They usually have digital user-programmable library memories that can be input to cause the detectors to produce counts for signature of the desired element. But this electronic wizardry does not make the isotope detector an easy treasure locator. In order to find a concentration of buried metal (or ore), you must first make a survey over a plot of ground, then map and interpret the readings to determine where the concentration of metal is located. You cannot expect to get an immediate signal as you do with a metal detector, then start digging for your treasure. A strong background in geology and geophysics is recommended in order to properly interpret what you find on your survey map. Best wishes, J_P
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#22
04-23-2008, 02:58 PM
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What happened to the irish wiskey ? It works fine wih LRL ! Regards, Fred.
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#23
04-23-2008, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
You are basically correct. The Bickel isotope detector will not find a gold ring whether buried today or 10,000 years ago. This is not a good treasure hunter machine for people hunting for the usual treasures. However, the Bickel isotope detectors are true long range detectors. They have pinpointed gold, copper and other metals up to 5000 feet deep from the surface of the ground and from airplanes. What other LRL from this forum can be demonstrated do this in front of witnesses? This forum is intended for true working long range detectors as well as phony LRLs that don't work. It doesn't matter whether the detector is useful to a treasure hunter or not. This detector does not require a minute to collect a sample. It works in real time while flying over an area at airplane speeds, or can be used driving or walking with the same resolution. This detector is also excellent for finding underground water up to 5000 feet deep. If Moctezuma's treasure was several tons, and was buried anywhere between 30 cm and 5000 feet deep, you should be able to locate it using this detector. But you probably will not recognize it on your survey map unless you are trained to understand the other geological sub strata that will be also showing and making readings on your survey map. P.S. When you find snake oil, just pour it down the drain and replace the liquid with Irish Whiskey. You will be much happier in the long run.  Best wishes, J_P
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#24
04-23-2008, 04:00 PM
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my previous post was not about you: I know the device works for real if right conditions are matched... but at other person attitude to confuse anything with a pendulum... Maybe is some "pen*s envy" he show in every post... I don't know... I'm sure a lot of irish wiskey could maybe get him to more rational thoughts... instead of playing with his pendulum... like another folk from montana... if I remember well.  Too many pendulums here... and so people start having cunfuse ideas about finding lost gold rings with isotope count... Sure I will replace all the snake oil with good irish wiskey... mush more round as taste! Kind regards, Max
__________________
"Kill for gain or shoot to maim... But we dont need a reason " someone said...
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#25
04-23-2008, 04:09 PM
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I drink it at now... so all is becoming clear about my previous posts I made... ouch! I wrote "fools" somewhere... Dang! The fingers drop on keyboard without any intentional movement... like when D. uses is paint-roller...Now I see I can write good thing even without using wiskey...  Just joke... I know that nobody here will spend 8000 or 10000 usd for such a device...to use it as a coin-finder, right ? Or not ?  Best regards, Max
__________________
"Kill for gain or shoot to maim... But we dont need a reason " someone said...
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