Mineoro 2-Box -- 492 feet range?

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Fred

Hi J_player,
All OK .



For the first time i see an interesting "LRL" circuit here.The construction is obviously genuine, unlike in other devices.Knowing more about it i could understand better all those pictures showing guys in Brazil with coins and pistols MD in their hands.So i am really interested by the principles, (not necessarily by the diagram), and everything that could help to decide Esteban , not to publish the circuit, but to authorize other to do it, seem logical to me .
I obviously 100% respect his decision , i am sure he understand this is nothing personnal ,but real information about LRL has been scarce here, and he is one of the few that has provided some true information.

Thanks to Morgan for his efforts and the new pics.Força Esteban!
Regards!,
Fred.

Hello
Yes,i hope Esteban decide something about publish schematic...
I try this device in my field test and get clear signal on medal buried 20 years ago,3m distance the first beeps,1m distance the last beeps,until stop,and than needs adjustment again, its dificult to pinpoint, but i find easy way to pinpoit.Once i get the signal and direction i turn the antenna to ground and walk until get the beeps again

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Morgan

Hello
After take note of all electronic components,i get this conclusion:
Its dificult to build a replica of this device because of two ferrit and antenna,but anyway i will try to make one for me...
I would like to share schematic with people here,and i think maybe someone here increase performance.I´m afraid to be acused to put public a registrated patent.Maybe i can put only elect.circuitry and not info about antenna and ferrit...
I make more tests with this device and it beeps also in old aluminium cokacola can at 5m,40cm deep,unfortunly not only GOLD...

Originally Posted by Morgan

Hello
Yes,i hope Esteban decide something about publish schematic...
I try this device in my field test and get clear signal on medal buried 20 years ago,3m distance the first beeps,1m distance the last beeps,until stop,and than needs adjustment again, its dificult to pinpoint, but i find easy way to pinpoit.Once i get the signal and direction i turn the antenna to ground and walk until get the beeps again.

Hi Morgan,

Are you planning to publish the schematic? First you said you would like to share the schematic, so that we can help improve the performance. Then you implied that you're waiting for Esteban to publish it. Now I confused...

In fact, I'm not going to be heartbroken if you don't publish it, even though you won't be infringing any patents if you do. As Fred said earlier, we are only really interested in the underlying principle. For example, with the coil arrangement as shown, this looks more like a compact (handheld) version of a two-box detector. A similar setup is shown in Charles Rakes' book (Balanced-Amplifier Locator) on page 101. This circuit uses an air-cored coil for the TX and a ferrite core for the RX. But, in the pistol detector, it looks more like a BFO, with the preset tuning performed by adjusting the gap between the two ferrite rods.
I don't doubt that this pistol detector works like a conventional detector, but whether it can detect anything at a great distance is another story.

[Morgan]

Hello
Its a question of some respect for people who work in this project for some decades,and i´m sure Esteban its envolved on this pistoldetektor technology.Anyway this is only the begining of the iceberg,he will teach to us the underlying principle of this device...

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Morgan

I would like to share schematic with people here,and i think maybe someone here increase performance.I´m afraid to be acused to put public a registrated patent.Maybe i can put only elect.circuitry and not info about antenna and ferrit...

If the circuit for the ferrite coil has been patented, then it is already published for the public in the patent disclosure. If the schematics are already available for the public to see, then there is no reason not to show the circuit which is already available.

You will find a lot of patented circuits for metal detecting already posted in the Geotech forums if you look here: http://geotech.thunting.com/cgi-bin/...le=patents.dat

As you can see, there is no problem posting circuits which are patented and shown to the world from the diagrams in the patent office.

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

Configuration of the ferrite coil has nothing to do and it was not made in search of inductance or permeability.
It was made for a special 'Q'.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by hung

Configuration of the ferrite coil has nothing to do and it was not made in search of inductance or permeability.
It was made for a special 'Q'.

Really? What special Q was the ferrite made for?
Also, if "the ferrite coil has nothing to do", then what part of the circuit does have "something to do"?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Really? What special Q was the ferrite made for?
Also, if "the ferrite coil has nothing to do", then what part of the circuit does have "something to do"?

Nothing, its just one more sentence to bring confusion.I think hung doesn´t even know what is a Q factor, there is no such thing as a "special Q."
Esteban has participated in building the detector,and he says ferrite position is very critical.Hung says its a lie?
Fred.

[Esteban]

Ferrite is critical and with essay and error find best point. Here there are peak voltage measurable with high impedance low capacitance tester and show 7,000 V at very low current. Of course, if you touch the ferrite the voltage go very low...

This is medium distance detector, not a real long range, but...

With high quality ferrite based in a kind of graphite type maybe will be better.

We have an instrument wich measure electricity on air, static in other words, and the range of the detection and sustentation deppend of the electricity on the air. Before rain, the voltage is near 1,400 V, normal 600, 800. At 400 V in air detection present reluctance.

I don't doubt that this pistol detector works like a conventional detector, but whether it can detect anything at a great distance is another story.

OK, but now Morgan present his experience.

Qiaozhi, If you think with the logic of normal detector, you're wrong. But yes, this system of coil and other things seems a MD. Remember, infrared pass through the coil... a "small" difference.

The holder of the Groundhog is a simple receptacle.

Morgan, respect the old Coke can, I had this bad experience with aluminium wich present oxidation, great corrosion, with white dust of aluminium oxide. But, in any way, detect a Coke can at 5 m is great or not!!!

[Esteban]

J_Player,

Thank you for the comprehension and the words.

I personally can't post this schematic in public for the simple reason that in few months will be in market at US$ 200!!!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Ferrite is critical and with essay and error find best point. Here there are peak voltage measurable with high impedance low capacitance tester and show 7,000 V at very low current. Of course, if you touch the ferrite the voltage go very low...

I guess you really meant to say trial and error. So, from what you're saying, it seems that the ferrite forms part of a high voltage generator. In your original diagram I misread the 7KV as 7.000V.

Qiaozhi, If you think with the logic of normal detector, you're wrong. But yes, this system of coil and other things seems a MD. Remember, infrared pass through the coil... a "small" difference.
The holder of the Groundhog is a simple receptacle.

Yes - you are correct. I was considering the inner workings of this detector on the basis that it was using a Groundhog coil, but it seems to be a holder for something else. How important is the infrared part of this design?

Originally Posted by Esteban

I personally can't post this schematic in public for the simple reason that in few months will be in market at US$ 200!!!

Iconos??
Anyway, doesn't matter, because at that price someone will buy it, and we'll soon have the back-engineered schematics here for everyone to see.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

I guess you really meant to say trial and error. So, from what you're saying, it seems that the ferrite forms part of a high voltage generator. In your original diagram I misread the 7KV as 7.000V.


Yes - you are correct. I was considering the inner workings of this detector on the basis that it was using a Groundhog coil, but it seems to be a holder for something else. How important is the infrared part of this design?

Iconos??
Anyway, doesn't matter, because at that price someone will buy it, and we'll soon have the back-engineered schematics here for everyone to see.

Hi,
don't wanna be polemic... here are just some little considerations:
if you remember the Iconos MD post ... where they said that their device get a large voltage spike as proof of lrl gold detection (they used a fake pictures to show that)...

It's not first time I see here that someone (not only Esteban) claim for strong voltage spikes at target detection by LRL.

That only means nothing , of course, but then I see again a germanium diode there ? Like in Mineoro's PDC "secret part" ???

Look by yourself. Another coincidence that could mean nothing, of course.

Then again I see a double 9V battery arrangement like in Mineoro again..., that , of course, means nothing... many MDs use 2 9v batteries today.

Then again I see ferrite sticks like in some older TR design for 2-boxes (but this is not 2-boxes) , that of course, means nothing again... apart some evergreen radioworks approach to LRL (like old AM radio stuff).

Then again I see IR indication... maybe an IR-led emitter who knows ? Like in some Mineoro's devices again... that means nothing of course !

Then again a round container on front like in other "pistols", and now last but not least Iconos MD... what a coincidence again ! That means nothing.

Then again the box is made of wood... like a number of other (mostly from South America) LRL stuff. Another coincidence ! That means nothing.

What to say... to me the unit pictures show an homemade radiowork of some kind... It's clear there is a tuned oscillator for rf emission with directive antenna (ferrite sticks) and somewhere (I think) must be a receiver coil (probably a flat round coil in the garrett container on front side). Then somethign about detection... germanium diode and transistor preamp etc etc etc like in regenerative am receivers ... but then something between an IB and BFO maybe etc etc etc.

Does it work ? Maybe "yes"... with some kind of metals but at few meters maybe and few depth. Maybe not at all.

Is there any ionic detection ? I think not. Device is surely electromagnetic based so no ionic bla bla bla. In few words it's not electric-zahori.

Is there any chance to get full schematic or design ? No.

It seems like older TR stuff... with separate emitter (a box to be positioned on soil) and handheld directive receiver: okantex told us about a similar MD in a previous thread. Just this is with tx and rx in the same wood box.

Anyway, I think possible detecting that way a coke can at 5 meters in ideal conditions... but there are a lot of problems in this kind of approach.

Kind regards,
Max

[mosha]

Originally Posted by Esteban

JI personally can't post this schematic in public for the simple reason that in few months will be in market at US$ 200!!!

Esteban,

If you can make real working LRL; why you do not sell them? I'll be first to buy from you,

regards,

[hung]

What I meant it is that as I see it, with the present configuration the coil is going for a wider IF at the expense of inductance and better Q. Capacitance may be higher, so is voltage as Esteban explained. Detection of an aluminum can, might be an indication of a wide IF. I bet it will also detect lead too.

Assuming the drawing Esteban provided is what the coil is and although the present configuration is critical as it is, maybe another kind of winding would improve metal discrimination also reducing capacitance.
If the schematic is released then maybe a better judgement can be made.

Well this is just my opinion.

If people wants to consider it, fine. If they want to discard it, fine too. I don't care. Just wanted to contribute.

Fred: You sound upset. Don't be. Coils are my passion. I believe it's not yours.

Max: The 2 battery arrangement has nothing to do with the device in this thread. Mineoro used to employ the extra battery just for the LCD battery display. This was used up to the PDCs. AFAIK in the new generation detectors it was discarded.

[Esteban]

don't wanna be polemic... here are just some little considerations:
if you remember the Iconos MD post ... where they said that their device get a large voltage spike as proof of lrl gold detection (they used a fake pictures to show that)...

Iconos claim that occurs for few nanosecond a HV peak. But in this other detector is generated a HV.

That only means nothing , of course, but then I see again a germanium diode there ? Like in Mineoro's PDC "secret part" ???
Look by yourself. Another coincidence that could mean nothing, of course.

Germanium is useful yet in many schematics.

Then again I see a double 9V battery arrangement like in Mineoro again..., that , of course, means nothing... many MDs use 2 9v batteries today.

Of course. Most of LRL detector uses separates batteries. For example –for to give you an idea– what happens if you use a battery only for the transmitter section and independent battery for the receiver and other parts of an IB MD? Don't know. But in homemade two boxes I built is better a battery for Tr and another for Rec. Is not good to use in electronic LRL circuits and only pack of battery for all the stages.

Then again I see ferrite sticks like in some older TR design for 2-boxes (but this is not 2-boxes) , that of course, means nothing again... apart some evergreen radioworks approach to LRL (like old AM radio stuff).

Here is a HV generator.

Then again I see IR indication... maybe an IR-led emitter who knows ? Like in some Mineoro's devices again... that means nothing of course !

The use of IR in LRL pistols is previous Mineoro.

Then again a round container on front like in other "pistols", and now last but not least Iconos MD... what a coincidence again ! That means nothing.

The round form on the front is very old, not a prerrogative of anybody. Old Alonso's pistol uses the round form, but in old models separate for shielded cable to the circuit. But modernity integrates in a box, like the previous DCH and DCH 85 by Mineoro. Maybe somebody has an elegant design? A round container is a round coil.

Then again the box is made of wood... like a number of other (mostly from South America) LRL stuff. Another coincidence ! That means nothing.

Metalic container for the HV gen and general for electronic LRL detector is not ideal. I use plastic in some container and regarding sensibility of some circuits the wind causes falses alarm. In some old BFO pistols you can use metalic enclosurtes, but, of course, the search coil independent, in plastic of wood.

What to say... to me the unit pictures show an homemade radiowork of some kind... It's clear there is a tuned oscillator for rf emission with directive antenna (ferrite sticks) and somewhere (I think) must be a receiver coil (probably a flat round coil in the garrett container on front side). Then somethign about detection... germanium diode and transistor preamp etc etc etc like in regenerative am receivers ... but then something between an IB and BFO maybe etc etc etc.

Is not radio, but there are modifications of two boxes circuit that works as a BFO, but with HV in the fix oscillator.

Does it work ? Maybe "yes"... with some kind of metals but at few meters maybe and few depth. Maybe not at all.

After 20 years of personnal experimentation there are devices wich works better than others, with several working principles. I start in experimentations because I saw hundreds of successfull long range detection made by Alonso.

Is there any ionic detection ? I think not. Device is surely electromagnetic based so no ionic bla bla bla. In few words it's not electric-zahori.

Yes, is an electromagnetic device. But all these phenomenoms (maybe) are electromagnetics.

Is there any chance to get full schematic or design ? No.

From my own decission, no. If the other inventor say "yes", no problem.

It seems like older TR stuff... with separate emitter (a box to be positioned on soil) and handheld directive receiver: okantex told us about a similar MD in a previous thread. Just this is with tx and rx in the same wood box.

Anyway, I think possible detecting that way a coke can at 5 meters in ideal conditions... but there are a lot of problems in this kind of approach.

In any way, you'll detect a Coke can with all types of MD, but no at 5 m.

[Fred]

Hung,

Originally Posted by hung

What I meant it is that as I see it, with the present configuration the coil is going for a wider IF at the expense of inductance and better Q.

IF means Intermediate Frequency.This is a HV generator, If has nothing to do with IF.

Originally Posted by hung

Assuming the drawing Esteban provided is what the coil is and although the present configuration is critical as it is,...

Do you know or not the circuit?

Originally Posted by hung

Fred: You sound upset. Don't be. Coils are my passion. I believe it's not yours.

I´m not upset.Electronics is my passion.And my profession.I believe its not yours.
When you make your posts you just retrieve some tecnhical information from the net,and you mix it with your own (desired) results,then you present this as a fact.

Esteban,thank you for explanations.There is so much yet to be understood

Regards,
Fred.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Fred

Hung,

IF means Intermediate Frequency.This is a HV generator, If has nothing to do with IF.

Really?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by hung

Really?

Yes.Really.Now you know.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Fred

Yes.Really.Now you know.

No.
You think you know.
Your time is up fred.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by mosha

Esteban,

If you can make real working LRL; why you do not sell them? I'll be first to buy from you,

regards,

Have not interest for to sell. Also I built classic MD, but only for me, and also don't sell these.

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by mosha

Esteban,

If you can make real working LRL; why you do not sell them? I'll be first to buy from you,

regards,

Hello
You must understand something...
People who have LRL who realy works,no need to sell this technology to others,also no need other people on their territory using the same LRL devices,so Esteban and his team dedicate entire life to sucessful treasure hunting.
If he start sell this devices to others,maybe they will grow more than him.
Remember,Alonso make both,the GIZMO(for crazy and lunatic people)and as i presume,the LRL who works(for closed friends)for other people. This conclusion is based on the fact,of my friend the ouner of this device is Alonso friend and help him a lot.

Kind Regards

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Have not interest for to sell. Also I built classic MD, but only for me, and also don't sell these.

Hello Esteban

Sorry for this but i decide to put schematic here. I will put only the 6 circuits.
The Antenna and Ferrit i promise say nothing about this.I know Alonso will be mad if i put all this technology to forum.Dont worry.
I´m sure people here will ask you many questions about Ferrit and Antenna enigmas...You can help them or not...

Best regards

[Esteban]

Morgan...

... is your decision!!!

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Yes - you are correct. I was considering the inner workings of this detector on the basis that it was using a Groundhog coil, but it seems to be a holder for something else. How important is the infrared part of this design?

Iconos??
Anyway, doesn't matter, because at that price someone will buy it, and we'll soon have the back-engineered schematics here for everyone to see.

IR is a way in wich "travel" the "phenomenon".

Regarding price, deppend in wich country is manufactured. Remember, for example, in China you can buy many things at very low price!!!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Esteban

IR is a way in wich "travel" the "phenomenon"

Esteban, do you mean that IR for example "dry" the air so the device can work,or the HV doesn´t leak?
Fred.

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Morgan...

... is your decision!!!

LRL Pistoldetektor circuit 1