The Aurificusian Hypothesis

[Aurificus]

Originally Posted by J_Player

No, no....
You have it all wrong!

We are not interested in knowing the details of your great original idea for a quite different type of MD. This belongs to you alone.

What we are interested in is to learn what results you get from the knowledge you say gou gained from reading this forum about detecting buried metal using an IR LED detector. Since we hear claims of detecting buried metal with IR LED detectos, but no plausible explanation to describe how it could possibly work, and no demonstration to show that it actually will result in recovering a treasure, we only look for a way to convince ourselves that it works in spite of the preponderance of evidence that suggests it does not. A simple demonstration, or an easy to build project would settle the dispute as to whether this method works or not.

Considering how you claim to have gathered much of the key information from this forum to pioneer an advanced IR LRL which surpasses the capabilities of Esteban's IR LRL, does it not seem fitting that you would feel gratitude enough to demonstrate to the forum what you have learned?

Or is it your intention to act as a parasitic organism who extracts the best of the years of toil and tormentuous work of dedicated experimenters like Esteban and others who have found the keys to unlock the locks that have concealed the method for so many ages, only to hide the fruits of their labours, while tormenting those who contributed by showing photos of nuggets you have found using their methods?

Best wishes,
J_P

Sounds like Politics....Not Technology
Do we need to start another thread?

"Social,Economic & Ethical Criteria for Investigation of LRL"

but seriously... read this Slowly and Carefully:

1) I have made no claims to depth, distance, accuracy.....anything at all??

2) I have stated that I am interested in discussing the physics of how the reported results might be possible.

3) I have stated that if such a system is possible it is likely to be "hit & miss". due to an huge range of vaiables in the sort of targets we seek and the enviroments they are found in.

4) Esteban seems to be Strong and Smart and Stable enough to look after himself.

5) Anything that I have learned from the Geotech forums is still available to any who are prepared to read each post carefully and attempt to understand, using an open and enquiring mind.

6) If we choose to enhance a process or system with such Public Knowledge, well that is what it is for. If the author did not wish this, he should not post. However an acknowlegment of the contributions of others is good manners.

6) I think a Parasite survives by enjoying the goodness and new nurishment provided by the Host only to harm or destroy it by regularly injecting its vile & bitter regurgitations.

Back to the TECH,

Aurificus

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

Looks like its up to me to advance things a degree or two

...Sounds like Politics....Not Technology
Do we need to start another thread?

Not at all.
My question is whether you will provide a simple demonstration, or an easy to build project to show how well your concept of an advanced IR LED LRL works. This question has remained unanswered.

After reading your detailed items 1-6 in your post above, should we conclude that no demonstration or a simple to build project will be forthcoming upon your building an advanced IR LED LRL?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

Sounds like Politics....Not Technology
Do we need to start another thread?

"Social,Economic & Ethical Criteria for Investigation of LRL"

but seriously... read this Slowly and Carefully:

1) I have made no claims to depth, distance, accuracy.....anything at all??

2) I have stated that I am interested in discussing the physics of how the reported results might be possible.

3) I have stated that if such a system is possible it is likely to be "hit & miss". due to an huge range of vaiables in the sort of targets we seek and the enviroments they are found in.

4) Esteban seems to be Strong and Smart and Stable enough to look after himself.

5) Anything that I have learned from the Geotech forums is still available to any who are prepared to read each post carefully and attempt to understand, using an open and enquiring mind.

6) If we choose to enhance a process or system with such Public Knowledge, well that is what it is for. If the author did not wish this, he should not post. However an acknowlegment of the contributions of others is good manners.

6) I think a Parasite survives by enjoying the goodness and new nurishment provided by the Host only to harm or destroy it by regularly injecting its vile & bitter regurgitations.

Back to the TECH,

Aurificus

Hi,
about IR LRL (as with other kinds)...

the fact is ...there aren't facts.

Just words... and with words you'll not detect coins buried 50cm from 10meters far.

All discussions and dialectics here serve nothing if you'll not detect long range the coin!

For so many years now we heard of wonderful results of LRLs (not only from Esteban , but also from Dr. Hung and many others) but get no facts, no proofs, no reliable theory, no complete schematics/plans, no patents, no double blind-test with educated observers, no new attempt about the challenge(s), no serious and trustable report about a working LRL.

Just words... and with words we can make jokes and sarcasm too... why not ? These jokes or sarcasm don't change reality: that LRLs don't work in practice.

Any serious THunter knows that these LRLs are BS... and serious ones that belive they work are simply self-decepted cause cannot pass with success any double-blind test.

But self-deception trick their mind... they don't wanna make double-blind tests cause INCONSCIOSLY FEAR of the results... I mean, that in double-blind test their LRL will show its total unusefulness.

Then , how to explain themselves that they are such morons cause spent thousands dollars in some spare plastic... hot melt glue and some pvc pipe filled with south-american made coffee-taste farts?

Kind regards,
Max

[Aurificus]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
about IR LRL (as with other kinds)...

the fact is ...there aren't facts.

Just words... and with words you'll not detect coins buried 50cm from 10meters far.

All discussions and dialectics here serve nothing if you'll not detect long range the coin!

I'd be happy to detect gold nuggets, size (mass) of coin, in real "'natural ground", at 50cm deep, standing on top of it, with reasonably priced commercial MD. Double blind tested & manufacturer guaranteed, Of course

Aurificus

[Max]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

I'd be happy to detect gold nuggets, size (mass) of coin, in real "'natural ground", at 50cm deep, standing on top of it, with reasonably priced commercial MD. Double blind tested & manufacturer guaranteed, Of course

Aurificus

?

You asked for params about test, hit ratio etc for LRL... I told you my idea.

We are not talking of conventional MDs... that are know for their limitation in detection of small metallic masses in soil. Not a big news.

Anyway, some PIs can detect a single coin at that range if some conditions are matched... e.g. on dry sand it is possible and I've done...the problem is that conditions are far from average search field and that device will be so sensitive to other stuff like brick/pottery and , of course, can't discriminate anything like a VLF will do in a more close range.

It's supposed an LRL CAN/MUST detect items like coins at least at 50cm depth...and from several meters away... otherwise what we are talking about here ?

Normal range detection ? You have it already on common MDs.

Kind regards,
Max

[Aurificus]

Originally Posted by Max

?
It's supposed an LRL CAN/MUST detect items like coins at least at 50cm depth...and from several meters away... otherwise what we are talking about here ?
Normal range detection ? You have it already on common MDs.
Kind regards,
Max

MD's use Brute force of transmitted EMR, I am interested in investigating possible sources of "signals" from gold nuggets that can be detected passively.
You have "proved" that IR LED affect targets "ZERO" so that can therefore be considered passive!

Re: Valuable Coins, Treasures,... Not much of that around here!!,
but if works for gold should have some application for other items.

I make no claims for distance etc. but 1 metre @ 50cm. would be Amazingly Excellent for starters, easier than swinging coils.

So if necessary for correctness, call it sRL, rL, passive MD, Geo Sensor, whatever keeps you happy

I'm interested in the physics not the politics or marketing.

Aurificus

[Max]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

MD's use Brute force of transmitted EMR, I am interested in investigating possible sources of "signals" from gold nuggets that can be detected passively.
You have "proved" that IR LED affect targets "ZERO" so that can therefore be considered passive!

Re: Valuable Coins, Treasures,... Not much of that around here!!,
but if works for gold should have some application for other items.

I make no claims for distance etc. but 1 metre @ 50cm. would be Amazingly Excellent for starters, easier than swinging coils.

So if necessary for correctness, call it sRL, rL, passive MD, Geo Sensor, whatever keeps you happy

I'm interested in the physics not the politics or marketing.

Aurificus

Hi,
I understand... you want a passive detector... with no transmitter then.

But the problem is : receiver of what ?

Cause if you don't know what to look for it's difficault thinking that a passive approach would work.

I read Esteban's claims on IR and RF passive devices but to me the first is impossible in practice... the second I don't understand which signal (e.g. frequency) you're supposed to detect to locate the target.

That's much talk about... but we end up with an FM radio that untuned it's supposed to pick up some signal (or absence of signal ?) from targets...

But where's theory for that ? What's explaination of this supposed phenomenon ?

Cause it's easy say... wire an FM radio or a square frame of aluminium with a toroid... but if you don't know what are you doing you'll not ever know if you're doing good... or if failure is due to your implementation etc

But seems Esteban is always playing the old game of "duck and cover" about informations...

Maybe he's under some table there... thinking how to take and post some other brilliant picture of his LRL pistols.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

MD's use Brute force of transmitted EMR, I am interested in investigating possible sources of "signals" from gold nuggets that can be detected passively.
You have "proved" that IR LED affect targets "ZERO" so that can therefore be considered passive!

Re: Valuable Coins, Treasures,... Not much of that around here!!,
but if works for gold should have some application for other items.

I make no claims for distance etc. but 1 metre @ 50cm. would be Amazingly Excellent for starters, easier than swinging coils.

So if necessary for correctness, call it sRL, rL, passive MD, Geo Sensor, whatever keeps you happy

I'm interested in the physics not the politics or marketing.

Aurificus

Dr. hung has found a way to lock onto the signal of gold, using a RangerTell LRL. He has since modified this LRL. But I doubt his improved method would work for other Items different than gold because of the unique nature of gold that he discovered. According to Dr. hung, the signal from gold can be sensed via the mechanism of the capacitance in the cells of the body of a person using a RangerTell. A signal line is shot and returned to the RangerTell due to the action of the signal generator (calculator) coupling with the antenna circuit below. The return signal apparently becomes much stronger when pointed at buried gold, and rebounds to the cells of the LRL user's hand which are acting like a capacitor. It is presumed that this is due to resonance with the gold frequency. To get the deepest detection you will need to use an LRL that is capable of sending microwave trains, such as his modified RangerTell. But also, take note that he is locking onto the signal that comes from gold, because gold DNA produces a substance that does not permit it to corrode like other metals. Therefore he cannot rely on any "halo effects" from gold, but only the native gold signal. Some have speculated that the signal emitted from gold actually comes from the substance the gold DNA produces to coat the gold, not the gold itself. The feeling is this organic substance is much more likely to produce a signal that can couple with the capacitor effects of the operator's cells. The details are more accurately understood when taken directly from Dr. hung's post:

Originally Posted by hung

Actually it can go much, much deeper if you use a special aproach of 'microwave trains'.

Gold is the most powerful 'self defensive' metal when it comes to avoid any harm to its structure, such as rust, oxidation, etc. Its DNA produces a substance which coats the metal to fight against those 'threats'.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
I understand... you want a passive detector... with no transmitter then.

But the problem is : receiver of what ?

Cause if you don't know what to look for it's difficault thinking that a passive approach would work.

I read Esteban's claims on IR and RF passive devices but to me the first is impossible in practice... the second I don't understand which signal (e.g. frequency) you're supposed to detect to locate the target.

That's much talk about... but we end up with an FM radio that untuned it's supposed to pick up some signal (or absence of signal ?) from targets...

But where's theory for that ? What's explaination of this supposed phenomenon ?

Cause it's easy say... wire an FM radio or a square frame of aluminium with a toroid... but if you don't know what are you doing you'll not ever know if you're doing good... or if failure is due to your implementation etc

But seems Esteban is always playing the old game of "duck and cover" about informations...

Maybe he's under some table there... thinking how to take and post some other brilliant picture of his LRL pistols.

Kind regards,
Max

You have the info... but the dedication?

Regards

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
I read Esteban's claims on IR and RF passive devices but to me the first is impossible in practice... the second I don't understand which signal (e.g. frequency) you're supposed to detect to locate the target.

That's much talk about... but we end up with an FM radio that untuned it's supposed to pick up some signal (or absence of signal ?) from targets...

But where's theory for that ? What's explaination of this supposed phenomenon ?

Cause it's easy say... wire an FM radio or a square frame of aluminium with a toroid... but if you don't know what are you doing you'll not ever know if you're doing good... or if failure is due to your implementation etc

But seems Esteban is always playing the old game of "duck and cover" about informations...
Max

My non-technical-hypothetical-possible explanation :
I´t absorbtion of natural radiated energy by the halo effect, from long wave to X-ray wavelenght.
So with a AM radio, fm , wideband microwave or IR light you will detect the same effect.for some reason the IR light must be modulated, just has the PD in the khz range needed to be.
Of course it could also be random beeping wrongly interpreted by human brain.But the halo effect is there...
I believe Esteban don´t know more about the effect itself, so he explains how to build it but no more.

so your IR

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Fred

My non-technical-hypothetical-possible explanation :
I´t absorbtion of natural radiated energy by the halo effect, from long wave to X-ray wavelenght.
So with a AM radio, fm , wideband microwave or IR light you will detect the same effect.for some reason the IR light must be modulated, just has the PD in the khz range needed to be.
Of course it could also be random beeping wrongly interpreted by human brain.But the halo effect is there...
I believe Esteban don´t know more about the effect itself, so he explains how to build it but no more.

so your IR

Hi Fred,
Of course, this could not work when using the Aurificus theory and practice of detecting gold with an IR LED, simply because he is sensing a thermal gradient, not anything related to a "halo effect". The Aurificus theory relies on thermal variations at the location of the buried metal, which are powered by the solar energy at the surface of the soil. Because of little-understood energy transformations, the effects of a thermal gradient at the buried metal object will be detected using a pulsed IR LED, regardless of any evidence of a serious signal to noise ratio problem. This can all be proved by observing Arurificus demonstrating his IR LED detector working, or by building a simple test device patterned after Aurificus advanced version of Esteban's IR LED detector. But you will never have the chance to see this proof, because Aurificus has indicated that he does not intend to provide any demonstration or simple plans to allow people to prove that what he says is true or not.

But you can take Aurificus word for it that it is sensing thermal gradients from the buried metal, just as sure as you can take Dr. hung's word for it that gold DNA produces a substance that coats the gold to protect it from corrosion. Dr. hung's observation of gold behavior constitutes further proof that gold does not produce any "halo effect". Thus, the Aurificus theory of detecting energy derived from a thermal gradient must be the only remaining method to detect the elusive gold signal.


p.s. There is one other way to detect the gold signal in the absence of any "halo effect". You can use a RangerTell to shoot and return a signal line. If it is properly programmed for the gold frequency, then it will charge the cells in your hand that is holding the RangerTell, and point the direction of the gold. This is said to be a good method to sense a coin at a range up to a mile.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Aurificus]

Thank-you, Max, J-P, Esteban & Fred,

As the discussion is now tending towards the technical , I would like to initially concentrate on proposals by which buried metal objects might produce "detectable" signals.

I am personally interested in signals that could/can be detected "passively" with a "sensor" constructed from "conventional electronic components".

As my time to devote to this project (one of Way Too Many) is limited, I prefer to investigate what I should be looking for, first, before considering what might be the best way to find it.

Please forgive me, in advance, if I do not respond to general posts about the impossibility, non-viability, un-reality, BS of LRL, remote sensing, etc.
"Criteria for Scientific Proof of LRL" is a better place for that

For any-one following the thread who is looking for plans, schematics, etc.
I Have None, this is not what is happening here. Morgan recently posted schematics, descriptions, photos, in another thread, I suggest you look at those for some ideas.

Cheers
Aurificus.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Fred,
p.s. There is one other way to detect the gold signal in the absence of any "halo effect". You can use a RangerTell to shoot and return a signal line. If it is properly programmed for the gold frequency, then it will charge the cells in your hand that is holding the RangerTell, and point the direction of the gold. This is said to be a good method to sense a coin at a range up to a mile.

Best wishes,
J_P

Surely you jest.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

As my time to devote to this project (one of Way Too Many) is limited, I prefer to investigate what I should be looking for, first, before considering what might be the best way to find it.

Hi Aurificus,
Perhaps the RangerTell method is not the best.

I think you have found the answer. It seems obvious that a thermal gradient at the location of the buried metal is the way to go. But not with a simple IR thermometer. You should use a pulsed IR LED in order to get past the purely heat energy at the surface. We have learned that the heat from the buried coin must go through an energy frequency transformation before it will become detectable, and the IR LED is just the tool which can detect the transformed solar energy anomaly.

The IR LED is one of the few passive LRLs that would qualify for your search. The only other might be a ferrite sensor. But the ferrite is said to be highly susceptable to RF noise, unlike the IR LED. The other LRLs are for the most part active detectors, in the sense that they must send out a signal in order to receive a response. As far as I know, there are no other passive LRL techniques other than the passive RF receiver (ferrite) and the IR passive receiver.

Technically, the IR LED could be classed as an active detector in the sense that it emits an IR illumination in a 40 degree cone. But this emission is only acting as an antenna (according to Esteban). The actual sensor for this IR LEDis a passive modified broadcast receiver which is not really connected to the IR LED. So in reality, aside from building a simple square wave driven IR LED, you will only need to modify an FM receiver in order to passively detect the thermal gradient that you have described.

Any other LRL would require building circuits that must energize the target in order to receive a signal, and would not fall in the class of passive detectors.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Aurificus]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Aurificus,

I think you have found the answer. It seems obvious that a thermal gradient at the location of the buried metal is the way to go. But not with a simple IR thermometer. You should use a pulsed IR LED in order to get past the purely heat energy at the surface. We have learned that the heat from the buried coin must go through an energy frequency transformation before it will become detectable, and the IR LED is just the tool which can detect the transformed solar energy anomaly.

Any other LRL would require building circuits that must energize the target in order to receive a signal, and would not fall in the class of passive detectors.

Best wishes,
J_P

YES & NO
Aurificus

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Theseus

Surely you jest.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Fred

My non-technical-hypothetical-possible explanation :
I´t absorbtion of natural radiated energy by the halo effect, from long wave to X-ray wavelenght.
So with a AM radio, fm , wideband microwave or IR light you will detect the same effect.for some reason the IR light must be modulated, just has the PD in the khz range needed to be.
Of course it could also be random beeping wrongly interpreted by human brain.But the halo effect is there...
I believe Esteban don´t know more about the effect itself, so he explains how to build it but no more.

so your IR

Hmmmmm.... Esteban tells just what he wanna you read... not the whole stuff... nor a complete design/schematic... at the end... nothing you can really use to test and repeat what he said...wrote...claimed.

Is up to you... you make some IR LRL crap... (remember to add hot melt glue) and it doesn't work... then you start asking Esteban again... and the cycle repeats... forever.

In this way you'll never know if your LRL doesn't work cause cannot (simply) work... or just cause you made it ... and failed at implementation.

If implementation details are "secret" nor you have any idea of what you're supposed to do... e.g. how the LRL is supposed to work... not your theory but HIS theory...there's no way for you to know what's wrong at your LRL implementation.

Happened with PD, will happen again with other crazy projects cause you need a complete design or , at least, know what are you doing to have some success.

At PD the lack of informations makes you, as an example, don't replicate the ferrite circuit at first... on PCB!

But seems they claim PD needs ferrite circuit... then you add a board for it...

but , cause you don't know what to do with it e.g. how to tune, that's changed nothing... and PD clone doesn't work.

Supposing LRLs work (and I don't belive that) trying to replicate one this way it's like you ask some swordsmith of year 1200 a.C. to replicate a boeing 747 ... just giving hints and making long jokes...I'm sure it will not fly!

You must know what you're doing... or have , at least, a complete project you can replicate without knowing about the supposed "principle of operation".

All other attempts out of the 2 alternative scenarios of above will simply fail... and we already know.

If we suppose (I don't) that Morgan's PD is a perfect replica of Alonso one... and that works... it's possible just cause he had on hands the original one to copy/clone... then take measures and everything... things that we haven't.

Of course, Esteban will say that we have everything, all informations but failed at experiments... but it's just plain stupid joke... he knows we haven't all details and play this game from many years now!

Kind regards,
Max

[Aurificus]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

YES & NO
Aurificus

The following mechanism that may enable (some) buried metal objects to
produce an electromagnetic signal that can be detected passively.

Sunlight striking the earth warms the ground

There is a gradient of heat (energy) from surface to depth (ignore geothermal)

Heat transfer is in the direction from hottest to coolest

The energy transfer through the soil is due to molecular vibration (phonons) and is relatively slow,

Thermal conductivity for soils around 1 - 2 W/(m.K)

For our preferred target metals: Gold 318 W/(m.K) Silver 429 W/(m.K)
Copper 380 W/(m.K)

Metals transfer heat by movement of free electrons, therefore rapid heat transfer.

Metal in the soil will transfer heat from top of object to bottom faster than surrounding soil.

Metal is an excellent electrical conductor .

Soil is a poor electrical conductor, but not an insulator.

Maximum thermal transfer will occur near top of target (from soil to target)

As target warms, electrons will migrate to bottom of object.

Accumulation of electrons at bottom will repel electrons in soil, leaving “holes”

The close contact of the metal object to the soil is analogous to a “Schottky” barrier.

Once the “forward voltage” potential is achieved the electrons will cross the junction and fill the holes.

Current flow (metal to semiconductor) is very fast and high.

And it will stop very quickly as it has next to nowhere else to go.

As the electrons are returning to a lower state they must release their energy.

This will manifest as a burst of electromagnetic radiation.

The metal target will also have lost its stored energy (ie “cooled)

Enhanced energy transfer from soil at top (phonons & free electrons) to cool target

Cycle repeats,,,,,,,Cool

Aurificus

[J_Player]

That pretty much proves that a buried coin produces an EM signal by the mechanism of heat conduction.
No need to ask further questions here. Simply build your passive circuit to detect the effects of the gradient you discovered.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

The following mechanism that may enable (some) buried metal objects to
produce an electromagnetic signal that can be detected passively.

Sunlight striking the earth warms the ground

There is a gradient of heat (energy) from surface to depth (ignore geothermal)

Heat transfer is in the direction from hottest to coolest

The energy transfer through the soil is due to molecular vibration (phonons) and is relatively slow,

Thermal conductivity for soils around 1 - 2 W/(m.K)

For our preferred target metals: Gold 318 W/(m.K) Silver 429 W/(m.K)
Copper 380 W/(m.K)

Metals transfer heat by movement of free electrons, therefore rapid heat transfer.

Metal in the soil will transfer heat from top of object to bottom faster than surrounding soil.

Metal is an excellent electrical conductor .

Soil is a poor electrical conductor, but not an insulator.

Maximum thermal transfer will occur near top of target (from soil to target)

As target warms, electrons will migrate to bottom of object.

Accumulation of electrons at bottom will repel electrons in soil, leaving “holes”

The close contact of the metal object to the soil is analogous to a “Schottky” barrier.

Once the “forward voltage” potential is achieved the electrons will cross the junction and fill the holes.

Current flow (metal to semiconductor) is very fast and high.

And it will stop very quickly as it has next to nowhere else to go.

As the electrons are returning to a lower state they must release their energy.

This will manifest as a burst of electromagnetic radiation.

The metal target will also have lost its stored energy (ie “cooled)

Enhanced energy transfer from soil at top (phonons & free electrons) to cool target

Cycle repeats,,,,,,,Cool

Aurificus

Hi,
still the thermal gradient here...

Ok... but Seebeck's effect you describe works good with metallic junctions... more than between a metal and soil.

This is first problem.

Second problem is that you're talking about large (?) current...
What ? Seebeck effect between metals generates very small currents...and voltages.
As an example common themocouple alloys gives you a maximum of around 70uV/°K = 70uV/°C

So... if gradient is just 1°C you get maximum 70uV.
In the metal-soil interface you'll maybe get a voltage of some uV/°C at maximum.

About current... they are known to be really small... and usually thermocouple devices need proper preamplifier design with hi-impedance to get useful readings.

Indeed the power you could get from a single junction is really small... as another example: old radioactive generators used many thousands of them both for increasing voltage (in series) and for increase output current (parallel of them).
Such systems are widely inefficient... think that you need maybe 2KW thermal power (e.g. Plutonium-238 bars) to get maybe 100W electrical , like used in old spacecrafts (and also today's made are not much different about that). We are talking of something 5-10% power efficiency... you put in 2000 and get 100 at output!

About EM pulse... (?)
the thermal gradient you talk is there while things are going on... the heath moves from hot to cold and this will create small current... with no sharp cutoff... so not really an EM pulse... but maybe a small current which vary as function of time... then a magnetic field is surely present but of which amplitude ?

Maybe can e.g. deflect the needle of a compass if strong enough (maybe) but sure is not an EM pulse, and of course we are talking of very weak magnetic field.

Kind regards,
Max

[Aurificus]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
still the thermal gradient here...

About EM pulse... (?)
the thermal gradient you talk is there while things are going on... the heath moves from hot to cold and this will create small current... with no sharp cutoff... so not really an EM pulse... but maybe a small current which vary as function of time... then a magnetic field is surely present but of which amplitude ?

Kind regards,
Max

So, the Mechanism is Legitimate, Just a question of Magnitude?

I will Work(J) on the Numbers & report back.
May take some time & Brain Power(J/sec)

Aurificus

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

So, the Mechanism is Legitimate, Just a question of Magnitude?

I will Work(J) on the Numbers & report back.
May take some time & Brain Power(J/sec)

Aurificus

Is there any chance this concept could wipe out metal detector sales?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Theseus

Is there any chance this concept could wipe out metal detector sales?

Sure...

Take note: Aurificus will be spending a lot of time running numbers to see how to make the concept work, after erroneously concluding the mechanism is legitimate, and only needs calculations to estimate the magnitude. He failed to grasp that people have been telling him the magnitude of signal to noise ratio removes the legitimacy from this method. But even if the energy supplied to the surface of the earth by the sun was completely homogeneous, the calculations already show that there is way too little heat conduction through the soil to heat a buried coin enough to maintain a differential thermal gradient, much less produce a voltage, especially when a second metal is not present to cause the peltier-effect induced voltage he is relying on for this concept to work.

Answer to Theseus question:
The chance that this concept courld wipe out metal detector sales is about the same as the chance that people will stop buying tickets to heavy metal concerts because of the annoying sound of a pin that might accidentally fall and crash against the concert stage floor.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Sure...

Take note: Aurificus will be spending a lot of time running numbers to see how to make the concept work, after erroneously concluding the mechanism is legitimate, and only needs calculations to estimate the magnitude. He failed to grasp that people have been telling him the magnitude of signal to noise ratio removes the legitimacy from this method. But even if the energy supplied to the surface of the earth by the sun was completely homogeneous, the calculations already show that there is way too little heat conduction through the soil to heat a buried coin enough to maintain a differential thermal gradient, much less produce a voltage, especially when a second metal is not present to cause the peltier-effect induced voltage he is relying on for this concept to work.

Answer to Theseus question:
The chance that this concept courld wipe out metal detector sales is about the same as the chance that people will stop buying tickets to heavy metal concerts because of the annoying sound of a pin that might accidentally fall and crash against the concert stage floor.

Best wishes,
J_P

Ummmmm..... that's more or less my opinion too.

I thought maybe it was only me that saw; "He failed to grasp that people have been telling him the magnitude of signal to noise ratio removes the legitimacy from this method."

[Max]

Originally Posted by Aurificus

So, the Mechanism is Legitimate, Just a question of Magnitude?

I will Work(J) on the Numbers & report back.
May take some time & Brain Power(J/sec)

Aurificus

Hi,
"So, the Mechanism is Legitimate, Just a question of Magnitude?"

Hmmmmmm ... maybe you misunderstud...

the mechanism is true cause the Seebeck effect is real and measurable also... but this doesn't mean that it's "legitimate" as LRL principle of operation of claimed working passive devices.

The magnitude is small, no dubt about... just if someone wanna quantify it several factors must be taken into account including e.g. conductivity of soil, soil composition, if there's an oxide layer it's e.g. porosity and density and influence on charge exchange/flow, conductivity of matrix, level of mean humidity etc etc...

A simplified model I think is possible to obtain with realistic results for voltage generated and then also current flow due to the thermal gradient.

As an example then suppose that we have say 1uA/°K and 20°K thermal gradient at coin/soil interface so... 20uA current when process starts... the B-field could be (using approximation of single turn of current with radius equals to coin's diameter of 23mm)...


B= (2*pi*b^2*I)/(c*(z^2+b^2))^(3/2)


b is radius of turn = 23mm = 0.023m
pi = 3.1416
I=20uA = 0.00002A
c=speed of light 300,000,000m/s
z= 10meters (distance on z axis from the coin... turn of current)

So... let's go for it...

B=(0.0000000664)/(30000158700)^(3/2) = (about) 1.28*10^-23 Tesla

or... to put it simple... 12.9 yoctoTesla!

So at 10meters from the coin... supposing the things of above... just this small value...

The intensity drops as power of 3 with distance... so it's easy understand why so slight magnetic field is absolutely undetectable using actual technology.

Now consider that you have something 30-50microTesla as Earth magnetic field...

1.29*10^-24/30*10^-6 = 4.3*10^-20

You need something that's capable to look at 1/4.3*10^-20 part of your background noise... it's like looking for 1 volt difference when you have a noise of 2.32*10^19 volts!

If we consider SNR... as SNR=(Asignal/Anoise)^2 we have (4.3*10-20)^2 = 1.8949*10^-39

and in decibels... SNRdB= -387.33

I think no passive device could be made (at present years) to detect so small variations... and with that dramatic SNR... a huge negative one!

Impossible.

Kind regards,
Max