Rangertell LRL discreditation

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

And, am I to suppose that because you saw it on youtube, you believe it to be true? Dell

What's not to believe? The dowsers were speaking for themselves, and they were dowsing in good faith; and missing the target they said they could find 100% of the time. They scored pure chance results, just exactly like your dowsing or my dowsing would produce.

What's not to believe?

Deny all you want, just like you deny there is only one kind of dowsing; but your denial will NEVER change the truth of the matter.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

And, am I to suppose that because you saw it on youtube, you believe it to be true? Dell

Clearly my prediction was correct then ... you didn't bother to watch it.

For your reference: Richard Dawkins is the Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University and a fellow of New College.

And - your selective memory (no doubt honed to perfection from years of dowsing activity) has managed to filter out my previous question -> which program are you referring to?

"WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK"

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

From your post, an LRL'er might say, "Gold resonates at 1.729 MHz," and that's that. They would, of course, be completely wrong, in the same way that they would be wrong to say, "Bridges resonate at 1.148 Hz."!

I don´t understand from where this frequency comes. From what i understood it is depending of the intensity of field applied to make it resonate.
But if we admit the presence uniformely distributed field, i suppose it would make "respond" any metal at a determinate frequency,depending of the metal itself.
??
Regards,
Fred.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by roberts

Simple coin with FM radio, no more 3-5 m !?!?!?
Boooooahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

What "m" stands for? Milimeter? Even than is hell of result!

And more: For to evitate FM and AM signals, you can eliminate FM coil and AM ferrite (also here you loose some extra weight!) and use only audio input via volume pot. with some simple circuitry in this input. Put the radio pot. external as sensibility control. In the end... all is audio!
Don't forget audio beeps gen. at audio output of the radio.

[roberts]

Esteban you should learn more details about radio.
Setup you are talking about usually do have front end,local oscilator,mixer,demodulator and finaly audio stage.
So you are suggesting void of "coil" at front end? What will you get?
Some undefined "signal" fed to front end mixed with local oscilator and giving what? Ha? Sorry,this time i do not want to mocker but you are suggesting huge nonsence here!?
Please learn more about radio before coming here and posting nonsences.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by roberts

Esteban you should learn more details about radio.
Setup you are talking about usually do have front end,local oscilator,mixer,demodulator and finaly audio stage.
So you are suggesting void of "coil" at front end? What will you get?
Some undefined "signal" fed to front end mixed with local oscilator and giving what? Ha? Sorry,this time i do not want to mocker but you are suggesting huge nonsence here!?
Please learn more about radio before coming here and posting nonsences.

Hi robert,
Thinking better ( ) , if you remove the coil ,(the selective circuit), you ´ll end up with a wideband sensitive RF detector.
Same story that we had almost one year before, with cellphone PCB, remember? You can believe it or not, but one thing is for sure: Esteban is very consistent with his info .
regards,
Fred.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by roberts

Esteban you should learn more details about radio.
Setup you are talking about usually do have front end,local oscilator,mixer,demodulator and finaly audio stage.
So you are suggesting void of "coil" at front end? What will you get?
Some undefined "signal" fed to front end mixed with local oscilator and giving what? Ha? Sorry,this time i do not want to mocker but you are suggesting huge nonsence here!?
Please learn more about radio before coming here and posting nonsences.

Not a coil, a telescopic antenna. But can be a coil. Also I don't know why RF can detect variations in sites with metal buried for some years. If science don't show me how detect at regular distance, so, I'm free for to search in different ways. But I learn from other and this other uses RF detector.

Regards

Esteban

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Esteban

... you can eliminate FM coil and AM ferrite

I think robert was refering to that coil...i was!
regards,
Fred.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Regarding Mental Dowsing, it was reported on a television documentary 3 weeks ago, that according to the latest scientific brain studies, it was definitely concluded that humans do have ESP within the sub-conscious part of the brain. Of course, for those of us who have trained ourselves to utilize that portion of our brain, we already knew this a long time ago, before it was scientifically proven. Dell

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

And - your selective memory (no doubt honed to perfection from years of dowsing activity) has managed to filter out my previous question -> which program are you referring to?

"WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK"

4 days have passed, and it seems that Dell's selective memory and turned into complete memory failure.
So Dell - which program was it then that you were referring to?

I wonder how many other awkward questions you have managed to avoid by this technique?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

4 days have passed, and it seems that Dell's selective memory and turned into complete memory failure.
So Dell - which program was it then that you were referring to?

I wonder how many other awkward questions you have managed to avoid by this technique?

From what i have seen so far, a lot.
As soon as a revelant question is made, Dell is gone.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Fred

From what i have seen so far, a lot.
As soon as a revelant question is made, Dell is gone.

He's been doing this little trick for years.

If you really get him cornered, he will make some kind of farewell posting, and then be gone completely for a period of time, while the current posters forget all about the questions they were asking him.

Can't tell you how many times I've seen him pull this same stunt, but it is one he has rehearsed and executed countless times.

Finally, when he believes the "heat" is off of him, he will once again surface, and -- you guessed it; we will repeat the same scenario all over again.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Fred

From what i have seen so far, a lot.
As soon as a revelant question is made, Dell is gone.

Originally Posted by Theseus

He's been doing this little trick for years.

If you really get him cornered, he will make some kind of farewell posting, and then be gone completely for a period of time, while the current posters forget all about the questions they were asking him.

Can't tell you how many times I've seen him pull this same stunt, but it is one he has rehearsed and executed countless times.

Finally, when he believes the "heat" is off of him, he will once again surface, and -- you guessed it; we will repeat the same scenario all over again.

Perhaps we should have the complete list of unanswered questions compiled and waiting for his return.
Sounds like a job for JP...

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Perhaps we should have the complete list of unanswered questions compiled and waiting for his return.
Sounds like a job for JP...

I'm sure JP could use a list of questions in some manner.

Here is one to get things started:

Dell has always contended there are two types of dowsing, mental and physical. Mental is done with a needle dangled from a thread and is strictly a "mind" thing. Physical does not involve dowsing, or a "normal" ideomotor effect; but rather involves MFD (frequency generators plugged into the ground), physical signal lines between the FG and the target, and the L-rod tips angled down by several degrees from level.

My "unanswered" question(s) to him have always been: Dell, please post valid and substantiated evidence to support your theory of two types of dowsing. Also, show how the signals from your "physical" dowsing can be measured with something other than L-rods held in your hand.

[Fred]

Hi,
Also, a list of necessary operator´s conditions (iron blood, empty stomach,mental preparation,years of training, etc etc,) would be interesting...

[Dell Winders]

Dell has always contended there are two types of dowsing, mental and physical. Mental is done with a needle dangled from a thread and is strictly a "mind" thing. Physical does not involve dowsing, or a "normal" ideomotor effect; but rather involves MFD (frequency generators plugged into the ground), physical signal lines between the FG and the target, and the L-rod tips angled down by several degrees from level.

Sorry, It is you who insists on confusing physics, with meta-physics. I, at least know the difference, and when you combine the two methods, it causes errors in interpretation, and boggling confusion in the minds of the Skeptics.

Shame, shame on you Sam. Stealing a partial post from another forum with out giving credit, misconsruing it totally out of context, and use your rant to excuse your prejudice, and show off that tid bit of knowledge you learned from me, to save face in front of your peers for your own inability to learn to Dowse.

The truth is, I have always agreed. By definition, there is only one true dowsing method, and that is the meta-physical use of a trained mind/muscle, ideomotor response.

The implication of known laws of physics incorporated into meta-physical Dowsing is inaccurate, in my opinion, and at best a mis-nomer.

I sure don't understand the mentality that denies that a metal rod cannot be applied to physics applications? There is no scientific proof, or evidence of truth whatsoever, to warrant such an idiotic assertion. Dell

[Max]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Sorry, It is you who insists on confusing physics, with meta-physics. I, at least know the difference, and when you combine the two methods, it causes errors in interpretation, and boggling confusion in the minds of the Skeptics.

Uhm... why not pseudo-physics also... or call it pseudoscience... even better!

Look at here:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29554

I like the frequency part... seems all have a "resonance" for that folks! Magic of crystals I see!

Like with some hotmeltglue device...

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Here's the medical science involved with "Pseudoneurotic Gullibility"...AKA "Credulous Personality Disorder"

for the big series... "Ask Dr. Lecter"

Let me start with definition and features:

"
Diagnostic Features

The essential feature of Credulous Personality Disorder is a pattern of pervasive and excessive gullibility that causes the individual to accept without question claims unsupported by any credible evidence (including but not limited to claims involving health and health-related products, unconscious motivations, advertised products and services, extraterrestrial beings, get-rich-quick schemes, psychotherapeutic interventions, and/or the supernatural). This pattern begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.

Individuals with Credulous Personality Disorder have a marked tendency to be easily convinced by evidence of poor quality, or even by no evidence at all, as long as the knowledge claim fits easily into the individual’s irrational worldview and is made by a person of authority (e.g., a guest on an all-night radio call-in show; a self-confident telemarketer with a British accent; a celebrity interviewee on Larry King or a reporter for an entertainment magazine; a "therapist" on Sally Jesse Raphael; an actor playing a doctor in a television commercial; an author of a book promoted by Oprah Winfrey; a "being" who claims to be from another planet or another dimension who channels through their next-door neighbor; anyone claiming to speak with the dead, nonverbal animals, or omniscient entities from another plane of existence).
"

Interesting!

I think one could make a lot of money collecting that fools' dollars.

An interesting spot is in here...

"
Individuals with Credulous Personality Disorder often experience extreme dysphoria because of their desperate and constant attempts to achieve total happiness, health, and self-fulfillment — attempts that always result in eventual disappointment. The dysphoria lifts temporarily when they find a new scheme for achieving these same goals. People with Credulous Personality Disorder often are diagnosed with comorbid Anxiety Disorders, Dissociative Disorders, Somatization Disorder, Major Depression, Dysthymic Disorder, Substance-Related Disorders, Disorders of Impulse Control, as well as other Personality Disorders, especially Dependent Personality Disorder, Avoidant Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and several other personality disorders still under development (see future editions of this manual).
"

Histrionic Personality Disorder: seems it's you Dell!

Kind regards,
Max

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Sorry, It is you who insists on confusing physics, with meta-physics. I, at least know the difference, and when you combine the two methods, it causes errors in interpretation, and boggling confusion in the minds of the Skeptics.

Aaaaa... right on que with another non-answer to the REAL question. You are so predictable.

Dell said; The truth is, I have always agreed. By definition, there is only one true dowsing method, and that is the meta-physical use of a trained mind/muscle, ideomotor response.

Yes, but we both know that is part of your sales and marketing scheme to make the gullible and technically challenged think there is another type of dowsing when a FG is involved.

The real truth is; whether a person uses a needle and thread to obtain an ideomotor response, or an L-rod and a Do-Nothing MFD plugged into the ground to obtain an ideomotor response, both actions are called DOWSING. There is only one kind!

I repeat my challenge to you for the umpteenth time: Please post valid and substantiated evidence to support your theory of two types of dowsing. Also, show how the signals from your "physical" dowsing can be measured with something other than L-rods held in your hand.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Sorry, It is you who insists on confusing physics, with meta-physics. I, at least know the difference, and when you combine the two methods, it causes errors in interpretation, and boggling confusion in the minds of the Skeptics.

Could you explain the meta-physics that makes dowsing work?

[Dell Winders]

And I repeat to you for the umteenth time, I have No theory that supports two types of Dowsing. That is your own prejudice belief, not mine. No rational discussion can be held when you hold such idiotic beliefs.

Max, your definition of "Credulus Personality Disorder" fits the chronic Skeptic mentality, on this forum perfectly. I hope you get well soon. Dell

Could you explain the meta-physics that makes dowsing work?

NO!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

And I repeat to you for the umteenth time, I have No theory that supports two types of Dowsing. That is your own prejudice belief, not mine. No rational discussion can be held when you hold such idiotic beliefs.

Max, your definition of "Credulus Personality Disorder" fits the chronic Skeptic mentality, on this forum perfectly. I hope you get well soon. Dell

NO!

And what about the other questions you have conveniently ignored with your selective memory?
I repeat: What was the name of the documentary you were referring to earlier?

"WHAT DOESN'T WORK, CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK!"

[Theseus]

So..... Dell maintains two kinds of long distance locating things through the use of an L-rod. One method utilizes the mind and an ideomotor response, to either cause a simple pendulum to indicate, or an L-rod to swing or lock. The other uses an L-rod to swing or lock, but depends totally on something metaphysical, as an input to the L-rod indication.

Here is something I found on the Internet. Perhaps this gives us a clue why Dell won't tell us how his metaphysical method of locating something at a distance, works.

Another view is that metaphysical statements are not meaningless statements, but rather that they are generally not fallible, testable or provable statements (see Karl Popper). That is to say, there is no valid set of empirical observations nor a valid set of logical arguments, which could definitively prove metaphysical statements to be true or false. Hence, a metaphysical statement usually implies an idea about the world or about the universe, which may seem reasonable but is ultimately not empirically verifiable.

Or, alternatively, maybe Dell has concocted his own brand of (dare I say the word...) DOWSING, and since he needed a name for it that would suggest things of a physical nature, but it was something that couldn't be testable or explainable--- then he chose the word metaphysical; and thus afforded himself a convenient "back-door", in case anyone actually ask for an explanation.

Clever, wouldn't you say? This smug old guy in the red shirt is not as dumb as he makes out to be.

[jondoe67]

I purchased a rangertell examiner deluxe with the seperate line generator for the computer.
There are 14 pdf files and I have had mixed sucess in the short hour or two I actually used the device.

I'm half tempted to take it apart to see if it is a hoax, or is for real, as I understand basic quantum physics and very basic electrical engineering, but I don't want to destroy it, as I am thinking about selling it since it is basically brand new and I did pay over 500$ for the 2 devices and could use the $.

I have to believe there is some validity to their device, but need to have someone show me how it works and how to use it "properly". It did know the difference in 14, 18, and 24k gold, but magnetic interferance, including my own, does seem to effect the device to a degree.

My uncle was 98 when he died and I have seen him "douse" to the exact foot, so I know without ANY doubt that dowsing is an ABSOLUTE reality. I tried years ago, but was unsuccessful. My mother could do it as well.

Someone mentioned something about a cd and resonance, but there is a laser and other electronics in play there, so it is not the same thing.
They say this is not dowsing it is detecting, but I'm not convinced either way as of right now.

I sell on eBay and was going to put it in my store, but after hearing all this negative feedback, I don't know if I want to risk the feedback, in case the person who buys it cannot use it due to his or her individual frequency, or the inability to "feel" the change in vibrations or magnetic frequencies.

I have used it and found no gold, but it takes most people more than 2 hours to find gold, lol!!! and I did spend about 20 hours with my fisher G.B. 2 with no better results, just dug up a lot more "garbage".

Again, I need the $, but don't know if I should risk bad feedback, as we are at 100% and would like to keep it that way.
People are all different and if you get the wrong buyer, "nothing you do is right", so it's not really worth the risk for us..........Don't suppose the the makers would buy it back???.

I am netural and would be more than happy to go on you-tube or participate in a test with a standard gold detector to either prove it works, or report that it does not.
I hope it does work, but people need to know either way, as I saved up pennies for quite some time from disability to buy this unit and feel I have a responsibility to give it a chance and inform others either way.

Again, I hope it works, but if it is a 5$ calculator and a garage door opener, the maker should be in prison and if I do find that it is, I will devote 52 blogs over the next year to expose it for what it is.
Thank for listening,
B.P..

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by jondoe67

I purchased a rangertell examiner deluxe with the seperate line generator for the computer.
There are 14 pdf files and I have had mixed sucess in the short hour or two I actually used the device.

I'm half tempted to take it apart to see if it is a hoax, or is for real, as I understand basic quantum physics and very basic electrical engineering, but I don't want to destroy it, as I am thinking about selling it since it is basically brand new and I did pay over 500$ for the 2 devices and could use the $.

I have to believe there is some validity to their device, but need to have someone show me how it works and how to use it "properly". It did know the difference in 14, 18, and 24k gold, but magnetic interferance, including my own, does seem to effect the device to a degree.

My uncle was 98 when he died and I have seen him "douse" to the exact foot, so I know without ANY doubt that dowsing is an ABSOLUTE reality. I tried years ago, but was unsuccessful. My mother could do it as well.

Someone mentioned something about a cd and resonance, but there is a laser and other electronics in play there, so it is not the same thing.
They say this is not dowsing it is detecting, but I'm not convinced either way as of right now.

I sell on eBay and was going to put it in my store, but after hearing all this negative feedback, I don't know if I want to risk the feedback, in case the person who buys it cannot use it due to his or her individual frequency, or the inability to "feel" the change in vibrations or magnetic frequencies.

I have used it and found no gold, but it takes most people more than 2 hours to find gold, lol!!! and I did spend about 20 hours with my fisher G.B. 2 with no better results, just dug up a lot more "garbage".

Again, I need the $, but don't know if I should risk bad feedback, as we are at 100% and would like to keep it that way.
People are all different and if you get the wrong buyer, "nothing you do is right", so it's not really worth the risk for us..........Don't suppose the the makers would buy it back???.

I am netural and would be more than happy to go on you-tube or participate in a test with a standard gold detector to either prove it works, or report that it does not.
I hope it does work, but people need to know either way, as I saved up pennies for quite some time from disability to buy this unit and feel I have a responsibility to give it a chance and inform others either way.

Again, I hope it works, but if it is a 5$ calculator and a garage door opener, the maker should be in prison and if I do find that it is, I will devote 52 blogs over the next year to expose it for what it is.
Thank for listening,
B.P..

Hi jondoe67,

I have a Rangertell same Examiner deluxe model as you have on loan to perform some field tests.
This model is the same as the G-T Ver 8.08B model, but with a different calculator, more frequenies published in the instruction CD, and with the extra ground probe and software for a computer.

I have a long story, but I will try to give you the pertinent information that could answer your questions.
I was sent a new G-T Ver 8.08B to test in hopes of filming some demonstrations of scientific testing that would show whether it works or not.

During the time I had the G-T Ver 8.08B, I opened it and showed photos of the inside:


I have never seen any electronics that looked like this locate treasure. I tried to run some scientific tests to determine if it worked or not. But I had a problem. I could not establish a base line needed to perform a scientific test. By this I mean that I was never able to find any detection from the Examiner except random chance times it was pointing to a treasure that I knew the location of. It was the same as guessing. I found the same results from other people who tried it. On some occasions people were finding it to point to known treasure more than random guessing would allow. But when I secretly removed the treasure, the Examiner was still pointing to the location where they believed the treasure was. The times when these people tried to locate unknown treasures, they were not able to locate them.

Eventually I sent this unit back to the factory. I was told it was misadjusted and not functioning correctly, but after the factory re-aligned the components and made a readjustment it was working correctly. They were unable to determine whether it was damaged in shipment, or possibly damaged when it was opened.

We also can read the online Rangertell literature that says some people are biologically impaired in a manner that would prevent them from getting good results from an Examiner. According to Rangertell, this could be caused by being left-handed, or by injuries or medical conditions. These conditions are said to apply to only a small percentage of people. In my case, I have a past injury and nerve damage to my right arm which would make me suspect as a candidate for testing an Examiner. My future testing would be done only with volunteers who are right handed, while I observe and record the results.

Eventually, I was sent a replacement Examiner which is the same model as you have. I have tried it, and two acquaintances have tried it. The three of us have gotten the same results as from the previous G-T model which is the exact same pistol. We were never able to locate unknown treasures. For the treasures where we knew the location, my friends did better than me. Apparently I don't have the ideamotor gene. Because I cannot establish a base line percentage of successful attempts to locate treasure, I cannot perform a scientific test.

The feedback I get from other readers who claim success tell me there are special techniques needed, such as meditation, or mental excercises, but the manual says it is fully electronic, with the user's body forming part of the circuit. In any case I have invited anyone in the Los Angeles area to come and try it out to see if they are able to find treasure with it, and no responses. There is one other forum member nearby who came to test it and found the same results as I described. An attempt at a scientific test was failed because no base line was established. This same volunteer is also willing to come to a test demonstration and help with testing if we can find someone who wants to try and see if they can get it to work.

I have not opened the new Examiner Deluxe or the ground probe because I don't want to take the chance that I will cause any damage that could cause it to malfunction. The Deluxe model is identical to the photos you see above. The ground probe I am guessing has no electronics inside other than the wire soldered to the probe. (I may be wrong. Maybe a coil or...)? The ground probe is fed by the cable that plugs into a laptop computer audio jack to send an audio signal. The software causes your computer to make an audio tone that you can send to the speaker jack. You would hear this tone on headphones, or you can connect the ground probe to send it to the ground.

That is the essence of what I know from experience about the Examiner Deluxe. You can read a lot more about it in a long thread that has lots of debates about the best way to test and use it here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15999


Bottom line: It does not work for me. I have never seen it work for anyone else. I would not risk the liability of being sued for fraud for selling one when so many people report it does not work.

If you want to be involved in testing the Examiner, send me a PM
Hope that helped
J_P

[Carl-NC]

Hi Jondoe,

There is no question that the Ranger-Tell Examiner is a fraud. Open it up and look for yourself, that will remove all doubt. But before you do so, I urge you to perform some basic randomized blind testing on a test target. For most people, LRLs "seem" to work under lax test conditions (when the target location is known) but results fall to random guessing in more rigorous tests.

I know you say you need the money, but I hope you don't slough off a Bad Decision on someone else. If you decide the Examiner is a scam, contact the seller and request a full refund. If he won't do it, contact eBay and complain loudly. Contact ACCC (Australian consumer protection) and complain loudly. Spread the word in public forums.

I am in Oregon. If that is convenient to you I would be happy to meet and show you proper test methods. I can also show you the insides of 2 other Examiners, and 20+ other LRLs. It ain't pretty.

- Carl