The so-called PHENOMENON

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Fred

Exactly.This is the way i would do it.Unfortunately this is not easy and there is (probably) no treasure here...We also should be sure the halo is really the same as "phenomenon", wich makes a lot of sense but is not proven.
teh information about the PD is spread all along the remote sensing thread, when Morgan began to show it.
The best and faster way would be you take some holidays in Portugal

Sim Fred,podes vir sozinho ou em grupo.
Traz tambem o teu PD.
Eu acho que é altura de pôr no forum toda a verdade sobre o PD,e pensar na produçâo do aparelho em larga escala com autorização do Alonso,e o melhoramento dos circuitos para automatico e se possivel tambem mais distancia.

Até breve

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Morgan

This way maybe you cant find wath you search,the Phenomenon.
I admit,its very dificult to make a perfect clone of the original,even with osciloscopes and other stuf,you will have 10% of chance to be sucessful.
Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone...

I see.
Is it posted on this forum, at one place? Complete project?

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Morgan

Sim Fred,podes vir sozinho ou em grupo.
Traz tambem o teu PD.
Eu acho que é altura de pôr no forum toda a verdade sobre o PD,e pensar na produçâo do aparelho em larga escala com autorização do Alonso,e o melhoramento dos circuitos para automatico e se possivel tambem mais distancia.

Até breve

But you already said you had difficulties producing second clone?? How can you be sure you'll maintain same performances in whole serie of products?

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Ivconic,
You are right about small mass of the coin. But what has been discovered is there are metal ions that move away from the coin in all directions and become disolved in the soil. There is no defined diameter because the concentration diminishes logarithmically. (We can say that there is a good halo at a 10 cm radius, even though it extends farther in weaker amounts). This raduis sphere is tranformed into a vertical column that moves slowly upward due to the capillary actions of the rain cycles. The ions continue to populate this column until the final 10-30 cm of the surface.

Thus, the halo area is many hundreds of times larger than the coin when measured by volume. Suppose a coin was buried 40 cm deep, and had a cylindrical column of ions dissolved in soil that approximated 10 cm radius with 25 cm height. --- The volume of this ion column is nearly 8 liters. How many coins would fit in 8 liters?

To be fair, the halo area of ionized soil may not be as strong as the coin for showing eddy currents in a metal detector, but it contributes sometimes to show a signal nearly twice as strong. What is more important is the electric field effects. The atmospheric current leaking between the earth and atmosphere will tend to favor areas of the ground that are more conductive, and transfer charges more easily. This anomaly made of ions, while having lesser mass than the coin, can have a large influence on the voltage gradient above the halo ground. Maybe large enough to measure. But as you say, there are many other interfering noises that make this hard to find. Some of the best conditions are:

1. Away from civilization - power lines, radio broadcasts, etc.
2. Between the hours of 10:00am and 2:00pm (may vary ins different countries)
3. Low relative humidity
4. The soil must contain chemicals that dissolve the metal. Otherwise there will be no ions or halo. For gold, this means there must be some gold-digesting bacteria that can corrode the metal by secreting cyanide and sulfur complexes. These bacteria have been found up to 5000 feet deep in gold mines, as well as near the surface.
5. Damp soil - preferably drying after a wet spell.
6. Long time buried metal. it takes some time depending on the metal.
7. Copper, lead, iron and zinc are known to dissolve a high concentration of ions in some soils. Most common metals are good for creating a halo. Poor metals that take longer are gold, stainless steel, platinum, palladium, etc.

Best wishes,
J_P

That is very acceptable theory, but only if there is method to mark out ions origin by some specific feature. So to know which ion came from which origin. I am not some expert in ions, but i do know ions are ions...no matter the origin. So.. that would be acceptable approach (ionic detection) only in primitive environments....like sandy deserts, where are far less chances to meet ions from various origins. So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.
But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.
So... ionic detection technique will always indicate presence of various ions. Everywhere. How to know which one is coming from hoard?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Ivconic

that would be acceptable approach (ionic detection) only in primitive environments....like sandy deserts, where are far less chances to meet ions from various origins. So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.

Hi Ivconic,
I believe there are no ion clouds to be detected that will indicate the location of buried metal. I believe in what scientists have measured, not what pseudo-scientists claim without proof. I believe you have correctly concluded that something must be in the soil.

Scientists have measured the ion anomalies in the soil that rise in a column above buried metals. In fact, there is a multimillion dollar industry that surveys the soil at gold mines and copper mines to see where the strong concentrations of metal ions are. They can then pinpoint the ore deposits that lead to the recovery of tons of gold and copper as well as other metals.

This same column of ions ceases to exist when it migrates to within 10-30 cm of the surface. At this point the ions become bound with other salts near the surface of the soil and cease to be ions. In the case of gold, it usually becomes a minute fragment of metallic gold, or possibly a telluride, or other ore compound. But never a free gold ion that becomes airborne. This is the reason it is not possible to detect gold ions in the air. Also, if gold ions did somehow get into the air, the wind would quickly blow them away from the location of the treasure.

The anomaly that can be measured is the ion column, sometimes called halo. What changes in this column of soil is it has higher conductivity than the surrounding soil. It also is a volume of soil that is acting like a battery. The gold ions are mingling with other ions derived from chemical salts in the soil and sulfur complexes, etc. It is literally a ground battery operating in the midst of some varying telluric currents.

In addition, any chemical and electrical activities caused by this halo will influence the earth's magnetic field to a lesser extent. But the most important effect used by most LRL experimenters is the voltage gradient in the air above the halo. This voltage gradient is about 300v/meter of altitude at the surface of the earth. It is driven by the slow leakage of current between the earth and the ionosphere, much like a capacitor has a slow leakage across the dielectric. In this case, the earth is the negative plate, the atmosphere is the dielectric, and the upper ionosphere is the positive plate that collects positive charge from the sun in the form of x-rays mostly. The ionosphere collects enough charge to cause an average total leakage current of 2000 amps across the atmosphere from the earth.

If the earth were a uniform sphere, with all soil having the same conductivity, then we would have a very uniform flow of current on every square centimeter of the earth. But the soil is not uniform. Some soils are more conductive than others, and the current favours the conductive soils. You can expect to find a higher leakage of current from the surface in places where the ground is more conductive, and at the same time you will find the voltage gradient in the air above is much less at this location.

The prominent theory is that the halo area is highly conductive compared to the neighboring soil. Therefore it focuses a lot of atmospheric current leaking directly into the halo cylinder, where it is distributed out the sides of this cylinder into the non-halo soil and mingles with the telluric currents.

Think about the implications: If the soil in the halo anomaly is 10 times more conductive than the surrounding soil, it should have a good amount of current flowing into it from the sky compared to neighboring soil. This is what stimulates magnetic field anomalies... the concentrated atmospheric current flow is inducing a field.
Also, think of the voltage gradient... it is as if someone planted a lightning rod above the buried metal, You will see constant voltage gradients all around until you look the direction of the treasure --- then it drops severely.

This is the basis for long range locating. According to Esteban and others, the signal that can be detected is very small, requiring very sensitive instruments to find it. This anomaly is further complicated by all manner of noise from power lines and radio broadcasts, as well as natural noise from the atmosphere and earth. The only question is what kind of circuit to build to detect these anomalies. According to Esteban, it is not easy, but after a lot of experimenting, he says he found success.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

The way you described it here it makes a lot of sense.

[Max]

Originally Posted by ivconic

"Hallo" effect or whatever we called it, exist. No doubts.
But main question here is ; can we detect/locate it at long distances? I never succed that, neither anybody else i know. That is the problem.

Hi,
sure, it exist... it's not a trick of the mind in this case... the fact is known to many hobbists around the world.

Indeed, the problem is that just few , very sensitive MDs (expecially VLF as I know) can detect consistently halo formations around very old buried something... and that's appears as the target is bigger than it is really.

Also, once dug the soil was disturbed and the regular detection depth for target become apparent... and less than before , when item is buried.

As you stated in an old post the effect can be seen due to the fact some targets cannot be detected at a distance as just "targets" and the fact they are detected farther when buried is not only suspect (actually on fresh buried targets the soil mask the target presence, as we all know from air-tests and in-soil test depth comparisions) but I think a proof the effect exist and is real.

I say that both for ferromagnetic and non-ferromagnetic materials it exist... (but never seen on e.g. gold stuff) it happens easy on old iron (but still compact at core) , old bronze, old copper , old silver...

PS: of coruse, about LRL I cannot say if exists something that detects halo or whatever at far distances (several meters away)... so the fact (someone wouldn't agree it's a fact ...but anyway) Halo exist doesn't mean someone made really an LRL device capable of detecting it at far ranges... I dubt that's possible.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Morgan

Yes,sure PD detects at long distance the anomaly caused by conductive metals.This distances are impossible for normal metal detector.
My experiences with PD everybody from this forum know very well. I realy dont know very well if PD can detect 1k gold 200m,but i´m sure 15m is possible. Also small gold or silver objects can be detected at distances like 1m to 5m or more. Depth can be near the surface or more deep.but i never found one single coin buried more than 50cm,and the hoard of silver coins was 80cm underground...

You posted just BS... your data about PD were fake... your description of its behaviour is just a copy and paste of other "gurus" here...

I think your PD can just find noise.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by ivconic

It is not a problem to pay for such revolutionary device. It would not be a problem at all. If i am sure i can find hoards of roman coins and jewelry with such device...heck..it will repay all the costs with one single find.
I am sure there are people on this forum with fat bank accounts. No problem to collect money for something payable. But first we must see and experience such device..right?

Personally... I will not pay even a dollar for that c.r.a.p. he posted... not that I have such , big , fat... bank account...

But, even if I have money to waste...I will not waste my money with his stupid claims anyway!

I'd like too see something working about LRLs... but till now just big, fat claims and no facts.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Morgan

This way maybe you cant find wath you search,the Phenomenon.
I admit,its very dificult to make a perfect clone of the original,even with osciloscopes and other stuf,you will have 10% of chance to be sucessful.
Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone...

You forgot to mention you hide big part of informations about PD... and provided misleading ones... to trick people.

The fact "Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone" is due also to your policy of keeping advices and help from people and returning fake informations ...like the 7th missing board !

Do you remember what you posted about ?

Some of us discovered much on PD stuff.. e.g. what was original design of the MD inside it... and way to tune it properly...

But "Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone" cause, probably, the whole PD stuff is just a randomic beeper at LRL distances...

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by ivconic

I see.
Is it posted on this forum, at one place? Complete project?

... better if you ask Esteban about...

Kind regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
sure, it exist... it's not a trick of the mind in this case... the fact is known to many hobbists around the world.

Indeed, the problem is that just few , very sensitive MDs (expecially VLF as I know) can detect consistently halo formations around very old buried something... and that's appears as the target is bigger than it is really.

Also, once dug the soil was disturbed and the regular detection depth for target become apparent... and less than before , when item is buried.

As you stated in an old post the effect can be seen due to the fact some targets cannot be detected at a distance as just "targets" and the fact they are detected farther when buried is not only suspect (actually on fresh buried targets the soil mask the target presence, as we all know from air-tests and in-soil test depth comparisions) but I think a proof the effect exist and is real.

I say that both for ferromagnetic and non-ferromagnetic materials it exist... (but never seen on e.g. gold stuff) it happens easy on old iron (but still compact at core) , old bronze, old copper , old silver...

I think that all metal detectorists have experienced this "halo" at some time. For iron, copper, etc., it is easy to explain, but there is no reason why the "halo" should exist for a gold coin, or similar object. Of course, in some cases the object was not actually at the claimed depth at all, but was lodged in the side wall. Then the detectorist does not notice when it falls into the bottom of the hole. This can easily explain what's happening in some cases, especially if you use DD coils, which can often prove troublesome when poinpointing. In one particular case I know that this did not happen to me, because I was on my knees scratching out the soil from a deep hole with my hand, and I uncovered the coin at the bottom. It was a 1797 George III copper coin. This was one of the first early coins to be minted in the new-fangled steam presses of the time.
Without the soil in place, it was not possible to detect this coin at the bottom of the hole.
I have never experienced this "halo" for either silver or gold.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

I think that all metal detectorists have experienced this "halo" at some time. For iron, copper, etc., it is easy to explain, but there is no reason why the "halo" should exist for a gold coin, or similar object. Of course, in some cases the object was not actually at the claimed depth at all, but was lodged in the side wall. Then the detectorist does not notice when it falls into the bottom of the hole. This can easily explain what's happening in some cases, especially if you use DD coils, which can often prove troublesome when poinpointing. In one particular case I know that this did not happen to me, because I was on my knees scracthing out the soil from a deep hole with my hand, and I uncovered the coin at the bottom. It was a 1797 George III coper coin. This was one of the first early coins to be minted in the new-fangled steam presses of the time.
Without the soil in place, it was not possible to detect this coin at the bottom of the hole.
I have never experienced this "halo" for either silver or gold.

Hi,
sure, gold I never see too. But on silver I can say I saw similar stuff... silver coins that I found that way, over the detection range in-air, were BLACK... cause they corroded in soil.

Now, I'm not totally sure that wasn't with targets on walls of the hole as you described (was many years ago... I simply don't remember now) but the simple fact I detected the small coins over the in-air detection range has a meaning I think.

Kind regards,
Max

[Geo]

I believe that we only speak "in order to we speak". Morgan made us a proposal to go to Portugal, so that we see the PD working. Only that it remains, is we gather itself 3… 4 men and we go to meet Morgan. I am allocated to go. Some other??

Regards

[Fred]

Man, this is a fast moving thread

Originally Posted by Morgan

Sim Fred,podes vir sozinho ou em grupo.
Traz tambem o teu PD...

Obrigado Morgan,
I wish i could go there, but the problerm is the couple of thousand kilometers that separes us...

Originally Posted by ivconic

So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.

Yes!
And i think some places in South America, if not deserts, are flat and homogenous enought to help this detection to occur at greater distances, but even if it "only" works a reduced distance in more populated areas, it still could be interesting.

Originally Posted by Max

But "Max,Fred,Andreas and a few others was not able to make a working LRL PD clone" cause, probably, the whole PD stuff is just a randomic beeper at LRL distances... Kind regards,Max

Max , let´s keep positive, an to be honest i think there is more to try with it, in my case the conditions in wich experiments were conducted were not the best. What i have found is that it randomly beeps and is sensitive to some effect we couldn´t explain.

Regards,
Fred.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Geo

Morgan made us a proposal to go to Portugal, so that we see the PD working. Only that it remains, is we gather itself 3… 4 men and we go to meet Morgan. I am allocated to go. Some other??

Hi Geo,

This is an excellent idea. There is no need to make arguments and try to guess, when you can see with your own eyes. If I lived in Europe, I would definitely go to see. Portugal is a very nice place, and Morgan can show you the best places to visit after you see his pistol detector and other LRLs finding treasure.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Ivconic,
You are right about small mass of the coin. But what has been discovered is there are metal ions that move away from the coin in all directions and become disolved in the soil. There is no defined diameter because the concentration diminishes logarithmically. (We can say that there is a good halo at a 10 cm radius, even though it extends farther in weaker amounts). This raduis sphere is tranformed into a vertical column that moves slowly upward due to the capillary actions of the rain cycles. The ions continue to populate this column until the final 10-30 cm of the surface.

Thus, the halo area is many hundreds of times larger than the coin when measured by volume. Suppose a coin was buried 40 cm deep, and had a cylindrical column of ions dissolved in soil that approximated 10 cm radius with 25 cm height. --- The volume of this ion column is nearly 8 liters. How many coins would fit in 8 liters?

To be fair, the halo area of ionized soil may not be as strong as the coin for showing eddy currents in a metal detector, but it contributes sometimes to show a signal nearly twice as strong. What is more important is the electric field effects. The atmospheric current leaking between the earth and atmosphere will tend to favor areas of the ground that are more conductive, and transfer charges more easily. This anomaly made of ions, while having lesser mass than the coin, can have a large influence on the voltage gradient above the halo ground. Maybe large enough to measure. But as you say, there are many other interfering noises that make this hard to find. Some of the best conditions are:

1. Away from civilization - power lines, radio broadcasts, etc.
2. Between the hours of 10:00am and 2:00pm (may vary ins different countries)
3. Low relative humidity
4. The soil must contain chemicals that dissolve the metal. Otherwise there will be no ions or halo. For gold, this means there must be some gold-digesting bacteria that can corrode the metal by secreting cyanide and sulfur complexes. These bacteria have been found up to 5000 feet deep in gold mines, as well as near the surface.
5. Damp soil - preferably drying after a wet spell.
6. Long time buried metal. it takes some time depending on the metal.
7. Copper, lead, iron and zinc are known to dissolve a high concentration of ions in some soils. Most common metals are good for creating a halo. Poor metals that take longer are gold, stainless steel, platinum, palladium, etc.

Best wishes,
J_P

Here we found better hours are 8.00 to 17.00 PM, and maybe the best is 16.00 PM.

Lead is "cold" metal, but the most wich creates halo (or field) rapidly is bronze and copper.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by ivconic

That is very acceptable theory, but only if there is method to mark out ions origin by some specific feature. So to know which ion came from which origin. I am not some expert in ions, but i do know ions are ions...no matter the origin. So.. that would be acceptable approach (ionic detection) only in primitive environments....like sandy deserts, where are far less chances to meet ions from various origins. So...walking through the desert and sudden detection of ion clouds would mean only one thing - something must be in soil (sand) as ions origin. So few chances to miss.
But...than this would mean lrl's with this detection technique are suitable and effective only in simillar environments. If those are effective at all.
But in more complicated environments there are so many ions and ion clouds, floating arround, with various origins..so that kind of locating technique would turn to be totally uselless. Cose you simply can not distinguish between ions and further to recognize their origin.
So... ionic detection technique will always indicate presence of various ions. Everywhere. How to know which one is coming from hoard?

For example, iron you can reject easyli because degradate rapidly, so bronze, for me, is the most "sweet"... The only time I detect an iron object was a stove buried at 1 m or more, but beeps was interminent, very intermitent, but from 40 m. But also this stove has copper pipes, but I'm sure detection was by the iron, because, at the end, the iron mask here the "signal" of good conductive metals as copper, silver, gold...

Here occurs exactly as normal MD: in terrain with high concentration of iron, in my country a type of red soil, detection can be mask in gran manner. In salty terrain detection is long, but no precisse, due a kind of "disperssion" occurs.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by ivconic

I am sure that you made much experiments on this subject. Also i am sure that you made many various devices so far. Most of those devices do react somehow on something, i do beleive that.
What i can not accept is claim that you or anybody else can accuratelly detect one single coin at....1m in soil, BUT; knowing for sure and being 80% sure it is coin, before digging!
What i want to say is:
it is easy to make device which will "squeek", "crack" , "peep" or indicate on some other way, some "detection" of something.
We have here Zahori..among other devices. It is also "squeeking" arround wildly. So...by random and pretty wild coincidency operator can walk arround and dig holes, and certainly he will discover some item in the ground, sooner or later. So..it is good chance, acting like that, to dig many good items. Especially if that location has rich history, so many good items and finds are present there. Than that prospector will be 100% sure his device was accurate and usefull. Even if that device was empty plastic box with ordinary radio telescopic antenna....
I rather beleive that your results were achieved by strange and wild coincidence and possiblly due fact that you live and prospecting in historically rich area.
That's why is neccessary to test such devices in another regions, far away from your place.
Me also...i live in very interesting area where ancient roman roads are crossing. There are numerous locations and sites. There are many sites where i dont need detector at all. Just need to walk and dig randomly. On each 10 holes i will discover at least 5 nice finds. Without any device by me. So..if i took Zahori with me, it would "squeek" randomly arround, i would dig holes, find nice finds...and at the end of a day i would be 100% sure Zahori was accurate and powerfull!!?? Although, actually, it was 100% uselles..
Understand me? That is , what i beleive is, a case here.

Yes, you're right, but here with a poor history, few objects in soil in comparisson Europe, etc., is more, but more difficult, to be a coincidence...

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Ivconic,
This "halo" or similar is the same as Esteban calls the "Phenomenon".

You see it as a halo that shows a stronger than normal metal detector signal until you dig the target. But LRL proponents see it as having many more properties than that. In fact there are thousands of scientists that have reported similar findings about long time buried metal objects as what Esteban describes.

What we know from scientists is that long time buried metals corrode under the ground, and this corrosion results in metal ions dissolving in the soil and eventually combining with salts in the soil. This constitutes a weak form of "ground battery" which can be seen as an anomaly in the telluric currents which normally flow in the soil. But scientists have also discovered that these metal ions tavel upwards in a column through the soil above the buried metal, until they reach the last 10-30 cm of the surface, where they combine with other elements and become bound (no longer an ion). This all happens very slowly, and can be accelerated by the rain cycles, and by bacteria that attack metals under the ground by producing corrosive substances like cyanide.

The LRL proponents claim they have LRLs that are able to detect secondary effects of this corroding metal halo area of the ground. Things like anomalies of the earth's atmospheric space charge in the air above the buried metal, anomalies of the earth's magnetic field in the area of the halo, anomalies in the ground conductivity or resistivity in the area of the halo, etc.

We also have an LRL proponent who claims that gold has DNA which produces a substance that coats the surface to protect it from rust and oxidation, etc.

I suppose you are right... Some of these things may be true, and some maybe not.
But until you see an LRL recovering treasure in front of your eyes, you are only hearing stories.

Best wishes,
J_P

No scientis told us. We, many years ago, with our empiric methods and meditions conclude that the phenomenon is complex: electricity, magnetism, chemical combinations, ions, and maybe associated with RF.

Regards

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Esteban

HLead is "cold" metal, but the most wich creates halo (or field) rapidly is bronze and copper.

Esteban,what about aluminium? it is a metal wich oxydes rapidly and is reactive.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Fred

Esteban,what about aluminium? it is a metal wich oxydes rapidly and is reactive.

For the absorptive pistol, no. Maybe for very sensitive electrometer yes.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Esteban

For the absorptive pistol, no. Maybe for very sensitive electrometer yes.

Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Fred

Interesting : Bronze yes, aluminium no,iron not much, this is a clue!

If the bronze is round as coin or buttons, round form, or circular as buckle, better.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Esteban

If the bronze is round as coin or buttons, round form, or circular as buckle, better.

Ok Esteban,
So i suppose a sphere would be even better.
and if a sphere is better, to experiment a sphere with a spike in it.
Problem is if we need to wait a few years between each experiment.