Ultra Science For Detection

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

And if it were a comparison test between my LRL and your PI on finding a 1 oz Gold bar buried 2 meters deep you wouldn't stand a chance of winning.

As I said, Carl has made rules to his challenge that winning will only be by a wild stroke of luck. It proves nothing. It's a gimmick designed to promote Carl, and you are falling for it. Good luck! You will need it with your PI comparison rationale. Dell

Hi Dell,
Again, you are confused. Carl's test does not require that you bury the 10 ounce bar 2 meters deep. You only need to tell which one of 10 paper cups it is hidden under. So this is basically an air test to see if any detector can determine which of the ten cups the gold bar is hidden under from at least 10 feet away.

A good PI detector will find the gold bar every time from 1 meter distance, but most won't from 10 feet. Can a LRL find the gold bar from 10 feet even 7 out of 10 times? That's all you need to do to pass the test and get your check for $25,000.

Your arguments claiming the test is not fair lead me to believe you are not capable of locating the 10 ounce gold bar 7 out of 10 times from 10 feet. Therefore you want Carl to change his test to something different that you think a LRL can do. But wait, "LRL" stands for "long range locator". Doesn't this mean it should locate something at long range?

Carl's test rules seem pretty simple to me. Can you tell us which of Carl's rules prevents a LRL from locating the 10 ounce gold bar hidden under a paper cup 10 feet away so finding it "will only be by a wild stroke of luck"?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Max, I have no idea what nihil is referring to. I only speak from my personal experience to try to get you guys to realize that some of the things you say can't be done, have already been done, and are being done. It's been obvious from the posts on this forum that you guys don't know half of what you pretend to know.

So how about the photo I posted? Is it a scam Dowsing device that can't possibly work any beter than chance guessing?

Or is it a real working device that actually discriminates to Gold from a distance, and operates within laws of physics?

Does it work as I say it does or not? Nothing has stopped your pretended expertise from making irrational judgement from a photo before. Come on, and show how smart you really are. Carl, anybody? Do you really think something this crude & simple, made by an uneducated Kentucky hillbilly, could actually Discriminate to Gold from a distance? Dell

Hi Dell,
OK so it works !

OK so please now give us data about detector (MODEL/BRAND), eventual mods. required, usage and distance at how it can detect a coin (and size and type of coin, of course).

So we can find it, test and gain your experience too.

Kind regards,
Max

[Dell Winders]

Hi Dell,
OK so it works !

OK so please now give us data about detector (MODEL/BRAND), eventual mods. required, usage and distance at how it can detect a coin (and size and type of coin, of course).

So we can find it, test and gain your experience too.

Kind regards,
Max

How can you tell if it works by looking at a picture? Does everybody else say it works as you imply? Does Carl, say it works?

As I said, from your posts it doesn't appear that you people are capable of thinking for your selves. Just copycats looking for a free ride.

I guess you expect me to go out at my own expense, recover your treasure and hand it to you on a Gold platter. Get Real!

No, I am not going hand every thing over to you Carte Blanche so you can copy and build your own at my expense. Who to hell do you think you are to make such a request.

I've wasted enough of my time on this forum replying to the same asinine posts over and over. Dell

[Max]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

As I said, from your posts it doesn't appear that you people are capable of thinking for your selves. Just copycats looking for a free ride.

I guess you expect me to go out at my own expense, recover your treasure and hand it to you on a Gold platter. Get Real!

No, I am not going hand every thing over to you Carte Blanche so you can copy and build your own at my expense. Who to hell do you think you are to make such a request.

I've wasted enough of my time on this forum replying to the same asinine posts over and over. Dell

Dell

Hi,
??? Now I'm really puzzled ???

So you don't provide more informations than others here.

Really sorry about that.

Sorry, but I can revert question that way:
Who to hell do you think you are to hope we belive what you said without providing any information or proof but just your personal ideas and claims ?

No productive ideas exchange here. Nice.

Just claims ! Good ! Bravo!

I was trying making some serious discussion... not to be intellectually insulted.

I can also say:
If your detector can detect a coin from few meters away
MINE CAN DETECT FROM ONE GALAXY TO ANOTHER.

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,

We don't know if your LRL works from looking at a picture or listening to stories. The only way we know is if we see a demonstration of what it can do, same as a real scientist would do.

Carl's test does not require that you hand over any of your technology. Carl will fork over the $25,000 if you demonstrate your LRL finding the hidden gold bar 7 out of 10 tries from 10 feet distance. There is no requirement that you show the secret contents inside the plastic parts of your LRL. Simply locate the gold bar 7 times, then take the $25,000 check and go home. Your trade secrets are safe.

Is the reason you say the test is unfair because your LRL cannot locate a gold bar from 10 feet?

Would you say the test is more fair if Carl changed the rules to find the gold bar hidden under only one paper cup? Maybe your LRL could find it 7 out of ten times if only one cup to hide it under?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Hi JP,
I think that all these are goodnight stories... no metal detector can find any (normal) coin on surface soil from meters away! that's what I say!

And LRL are, in a similar way, unuseful locate stuff at meters away (or even at cms in that case, where instead metal detectors work and find coins not only on surface but also buried).

LRL finds nothing of nothing.

All rhetoric examples here: trade secrets !

Which trade secrets ? Think there isn't any secret about any technology of lrl, just immagination in the best case, or fraud intentions in bad cases.

OK, ok give them the opportunity of show that this stuff work for real!
Why not !?

But problem is that nobody want try!
Nobody can demonstrate nothing of that!
That's why nobody partecipate at challenge here!

If you have a business, earn money etc why you would like partecipate to such a competition knowing that your devices are fake ? And you'll reputation would lost in space, you customers would ask tribunals for compensation... you'll have to change identity maybe (for real)... cause someone would search you even in the "hall of fame of LRL out there"... you'll lose everything:

- money
- face
- and even the right to post here or even to talk in a bar of TH

You'll be banned from the world of TH forever! That's why they are so scared!

I wrote about e.g. magnaCharta or whatever of my friend... but are all the same stuff:
electronic-LRL is a dream (for the naive TH) and a nightmare (for the naive TH that buy one).

At least for now. Actual stuff out there I mean.
Future who knows ?

All I see here confirms that.

Claims, words, stupid pictures: as you want
Real scientific results, facts, documents, informations, patents, even model/brand: nothing

Nothing of nothing.

Pictures of men holding StarTrek pistols, phasers, claim of television programs about "discoveries", some ir-led, some homemade work...

I could replicate here posting tons of fake pictures like that.
But I don't sell or push/support LRL, so I don't.

Which trade secrets ? Only trade secrets I see are about people sharing economic interests in selling/promoting/supporting that stuff...

That at the end don't interest me at all !

We are just wasting time here, trying to get some information from people that don't even know what they are talking about... but just glue with spit (as my friend said) pieces of junk, claiming this or that, in this pretty mosaic.

That's my opinion.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Max

OK, ok give them the opportunity of show that this stuff work for real!
Why not !?

But problem is that nobody want try!

...We are just wasting time here, trying to get some information from people that don't even know what they are talking about

Hi Max,

Some people don't want you to know the facts. Dell concealed the facts about the Dell Omnitron V.R. 800 for years because he did not want us to know that Vernell manufactured it. He also is concealing the facts about field tests he conducted in public using this device. It seems that if you ask Dell to see something substantial to demonstrate what he says is true, Dell will call you deceitful, pretender, liar, etc. rather than demonstrate his LRLs working. He tells us we must look at the field tests rather than relying on photos to determine what his LRLs can do, but he refuses to show us field testing. Can you guess why?

Dell is one of the few LRL manufacturers who actually did test his LRL in front of witnesses to show what it can do. Today you will have your chance to read about the field testing on the LRL that Dell demonstrated when he attempted to win a contest for finding the hidden treasure. He tried to show Randi that his LRL will find hidden coins at the beach, and win a prize in 1987. The Randi prize is silmilar to Carl's contest, except in 1987 Randi's prize was only for $10,000, while it is $1 million today. Randi will pay the million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate dowsing with dowsing rods or an LRL.

Back in 1987, Dell decided to win Randi's $10,000 prize using the Dell Omnitron model V.R. 800. Yes, this is the same Omnitron VR 800 that Dell now says was manufactured by Vernell without his knowledge or consent. But still he chose it as the LRL to use to locate the hidden targets in 1987. The result was Dell failed Randi's test. During this test, Dell offered seven different excuses for why the Dell Omnitron V.R. 800 did not find the hidden targets. But maybe better to read the whole story here about the Omnitron V.R. 800 failing to locate coins in the sand: http://www.randi.org/jr/200511/111805setback.html#i9

But thats not all... After Dell saw this story, he responded back to Randi. See what Dell said here: http://www.randi.org/jr/200511/112505psychich.html#i5

So now you know the story of the testing of Dell's LRL. But you also asked about the technical details. On the Randi page you saw some photos of the circuit board that show the construction methods. The real explanation of why this LRL can't find treasure is revealed in the circuit schematic. The functional part of the circuit is a 555 timer with adjustable frequency using 10% duty cycle negative pulse. The output of this timer is sent directly to 2 ground probes via a 0.1 uF capacitor. There is no power amp! Can you imagine any EM energy transmitted more than a few cm? See the full internal components and schematic diagram here: http://geotech.thunting.com/cgi-bin/...r800/index.dat

Now, if some LRL manufacturer refuses to demonstrate their products before you pay money for them, then maybe they are selling equipment similar to what you see in that report. But if the LRL manufacturer is willing to demonstrate their machine working like they say it will, then you are talking to somebody with a real LRL.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Carl, anybody? Do you really think something this crude & simple, made by an uneducated Kentucky hillbilly, could actually Discriminate to Gold from a distance? Dell

OK - as you're asking..... No I do not think such a crude device can discriminate gold from a distance, let alone detect gold in the first place.

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Remote sensing Discriminators are intended to be an information tool to aid in determining the probability of deep buried treasure being present that are usually beyond the depth limitations of conventional detectors.

The only probability associated with an LRL is the probability that you won't find anything.
Although LRLs do have one certainty - an empty wallet and many regrets.

[Dell Winders]

J Player, you sure love to tell lies, and now perpetrate Randi's lies. Just like Carl. There is very little truth in your posting. Randi, lied, and now you have included yourself as a part of the cover up. So why hasn't Randi sued me for calling him a liar, and for defamation of his character?

It's because he knows I can prove what I say in a court of law. He's a liar, and so is Carl.

Let's see you, or Randi, show proof to back up your false accuations and libelous action. You are a LIAR!

Dell

[Carl-NC]

Dell concealed the facts about the Dell Omnitron V.R. 800 for years because he did not want us to know that Vernell manufactured it.

I have the original box for the VR800. The shipping label says it came from Dell, not Vernell.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

And if it were a comparison test between my LRL and your PI on finding a 1 oz Gold bar buried 2 meters deep you wouldn't stand a chance of winning.

Are you saying that you could locate a 1 oz gold bar, buried 2 meters deep, with nothing but an LRL? If so, could you locate it if it were only buried 2 feet deep? Or 1 foot?

- Carl

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by J_Player

It seems that if you ask Dell to see something substantial to demonstrate what he says is true, Dell will call you deceitful, pretender, liar, etc. rather than demonstrate his LRLs working.

Hahahahaaaa.. I todja so....

Dell, is that the best you can do? call everyone a liar, and now the conspiracy crap? Why not just demonstrate one of your LRLs finding a hidden treasure? This will end any arguments about whether your LRLs work or not.

I read on your website how the Dell X-Scan finds hidden money easily by all the people who sent in messages: http://www.omnitron.net/del_prod.htm. Is this just a bunch of fake stuff you put on your website? Or can you demonstrate your X-Scan actually doing what is described on that page?

We don't need any more sneaky marketing gimmicks. We don't need to read about more people wishing they could have their money back for equipment that just didn't work. Perhaps if you were to perform a simple demonstration of your LRLs doing what we read they do on your website, in front of witnesses, then you will have some basis to tell us we are wrong.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

J PLAYER & ALL;

Make no mistake abnout it. In the U.S. the Owner of a website is legally responsible for it's content.

J Player, your malicious and fraudulent accusations against my charcter and, livelyhood have overs tepped legal and ethical limits.

Unfortunately, Carl Moreland, this website owner appears to unapologeticly condone, and encourage such fraudulent behavior with the intentional purpose of public defamation of character and depriving me of an honest livelyhood.

I will no longer accept these blatant atttacks against my life long reputation of honesty and integrity.

I am filing complaints against this forum and it's proprietor, with the appropriate authorities, and I will do everything possible to get this website shut down which does not exclude the possibility of civil action.

I do expect all posts and reports that attack the products I sell and defamation of my name and reputation to be removed immediately and apologies for your public lies about me forthcoming.

Dell Winders, Dell Systems - Omnitron

[Max]

Hi Dell,

a Civil Action ?

Now I'm even more puzzled !

Of course you can... sue people here if someone made wrongs to you!

(even if I think it's not the case)

I'm not puzzled of that thing... but was thinking :

At trial, defence could ask you to demonstrate that LRL you sell are working devices, as claimed on your website (something like the challege, with witnesses etc) and judge may approve that test to be performed!

And then also rule indirectly about LRL industry claims by judgement, or not ?

Could be an interesting case!

Think twice, my friend.

Kind regards,
Max

[Elie]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

J PLAYER & ALL;

Make no mistake abnout it. In the U.S. the Owner of a website is legally responsible for it's content.

J Player, your malicious and fraudulent accusations against my charcter and, livelyhood have overs tepped legal and ethical limits.

Unfortunately, Carl Moreland, this website owner appears to unapologeticly condone, and encourage such fraudulent behavior with the intentional purpose of public defamation of character and depriving me of an honest livelyhood.

I will no longer accept these blatant atttacks against my life long reputation of honesty and integrity.

I am filing complaints against this forum and it's proprietor, with the appropriate authorities, and I will do everything possible to get this website shut down which does not exclude the possibility of civil action.

I do expect all posts and reports that attack the products I sell and defamation of my name and reputation to be removed immediately and apologies for your public lies about me forthcoming.

Dell Winders, Dell Systems - Omnitron

Hi Dell
If I can prove to everyone that existing long range locator technology, implemented by well known long range locator companies, actually finds treasure, will you promise not to sue anyone, and
shut up?

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,

Go ahead and sue us, Dell. We can let a judge and jury decide whether we told any lies, or if it was you who made defamatory remarks. Why not sue Randi too, while yer at it? As Max said, I'm sure the attorney for the defense will ask to see you demonstrate the X-Scan finding hidden money, and the V.R. 800 finding hidden coins in front of the jury.

The fact is, you would rather launch attacks against anyone who posts an opinion that your LRL's can't find hidden treasure than to demonstrate what your LRLs do. If you really intended to sue anyone, wouldn't you have done it long ago when you claimed Randi lied about your failed test results? Is your threat of a lawsuit more bogus "wind from Winders", or can we expect to actually see you demonstrate your equipment in court?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

J PLAYER & ALL;

Make no mistake abnout it. In the U.S. the Owner of a website is legally responsible for it's content.

J Player, your malicious and fraudulent accusations against my charcter and, livelyhood have overs tepped legal and ethical limits.

Unfortunately, Carl Moreland, this website owner appears to unapologeticly condone, and encourage such fraudulent behavior with the intentional purpose of public defamation of character and depriving me of an honest livelyhood.

I will no longer accept these blatant atttacks against my life long reputation of honesty and integrity.

I am filing complaints against this forum and it's proprietor, with the appropriate authorities, and I will do everything possible to get this website shut down which does not exclude the possibility of civil action.

I do expect all posts and reports that attack the products I sell and defamation of my name and reputation to be removed immediately and apologies for your public lies about me forthcoming.

Dell Winders, Dell Systems - Omnitron

Why am I not surprised?
When you sell devices based on extremely dubious scientific principles (and by that I mean pseudoscience) than you must expect criticism. As mentioned recently on this forum, you took Randi's LRL challenge and were found to be wanting. This double-blind test used a scientifically proven method that removes any subjective measurement caused by self-delusion and selective memory. Once your devices were tested in an objective manner they were found not to work as advertised.
I don't know what the equivalent is in the U.S. to the UK's Department of Fair Trading, but I'm sure they would be very interested in investigating your exaggerated claims.

[J_Player]

Hi Qiaozhi,

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

I don't know what the equivalent is in the U.S. to the UK's Department of Fair Trading, but I'm sure they would be very interested in investigating your exaggerated claims.

In the USA we have the Federal Trade Commission who investigates fraud perpetrated on consumers. Apparently they are not interested. Perhaps they are more concerned practices that defraud a larger number of people than a few treasure hunters who believe Dell's LRLs can show them where treasure is. Even Randi commented about this 8 months ago in his reply to Dell's email:

Originally Posted by Randi on his website

WILL YOU OR WILL YOU NOT DEMONSTRATE YOUR DEVICE AND WIN THE MILLION-DOLLAR PRIZE? You are advertising and selling a device which you claim works, yet you will not SHOW that it works, and win a million dollars?

That’s a yes-or-no question, Dell Winders. Either you will, or you won’t. If you won’t, the only reason I can imagine is that you know the Omnitron doesn’t work, that it’s a fake, and you know that you can’t win the prize – yet you continue to sell it to suckers who you thereby swindle, safe from any FTC interference because they just don’t care, and you know it.

Randi's reference to the FTC is the Federal Trade Commission. In the USA, defrauding consumers across state lines is not a civil offense, but a criminal offense which is handled in the juristiction of a federal court.
Read Randi's full reply here: http://www.randi.org/jr/200511/112505psychich.html#i5

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dell Winders]

Comment from a a recent observer when I made the location of a cannon buried 20 feet underground and computer imaged on Geophysical software with data from an E/M.

Hmmn! It kinda makes you wonder why a ranking aerospace engineer, having 23 years with the same company would offer such a different opinion of my products than any of you?

I guess It's kind of hard for folks to figure if he's lieing, or you are lieing?

Dell rules! What a cool guy and demonstrated technology beyond my aerospace engineer's comprehension.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

I have the original box for the VR800. The shipping label says it came from Dell, not Vernell.

- Carl

Not prove nothing, as Esteban's pics. OK?

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

I guess It's kind of hard for folks to figure if he's lieing, or you are lieing?

The only person accusing anyone of lying is you, Dell Winders.
Only you have called people deceitful, liars, and pretenders. And so far you have offered no proof to suggest any of these accusations are true. Nihil Roma Maius is right: Photos and stories prove nothing. The only way you can prove anyone lied is if you can first prove that your LRL equipment will find the hidden gold, contrary to what Randi says, then also prove that Randi had knowledge that your LRL did find the hidden gold enough times to pass the test at the beach.

Nobody in this thread posted that your LRLs don't work. I simply asked if they can find a hidden 10 ounce gold bar from 10 feet distance, and asked to see a live demonstration of this. When Qiaozhi said he does not think your Omnitron works, he was voicing an opinion in response to your question, which is a freedom allowed in the UK and in the USA.

It was only Randi who actually saw your live demonstration of the "Dell Omnitron V.R. 800" failing to find the gold coins hidden in the sand. Was Randi right when he said the Omnitron is a fake, and it doesn't work? If you can prove in a court of law that he is lying, then why don't you? If you can't prove it, we will understand. But don't expect us to believe your products work when you refuse to stand behind them in a live demonstration to show what they can do.

I asked you which of Carl's contest rules would prevent a LRL from locating the hidden 10 ounce gold bar.
I also asked if you can demonstrate your X-Scan actually doing what is described on your web page.
I also asked if your LRL can find a hidden 10 ounce gold bar from 10 feet distance.
But you never answered any of these questions.

So what are the answers?

Which of Carl's rules prevents your LRL from finding the cup where the gold bar is hidden under?
Why won't you demonstrate your X-Scan doing what we read that it does on your website?
Can your LRL find gold from a 10 foot distance hidden under a paper cup?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Elie]

Answer my question, Dell.

[Rudy]

When I started my career as a young electrical engineer, I had a
wise old boss, who had done his internship with D'Arlington. He
always had great stories to say, but what I still remember, after
all these years was his favorite saying:


Even if you try, as hard as you can,
you can't make chicken salad
out of chicken sh#t.

[Dell Winders]

Something for liars to ponder. The VR-800, or Vernell products did not exist when Randi conducted the MFD test.

Kinda makes folks wonder why Carl, would condone and support such lies on his website.

Oh yeah, it's because he is one of the creators of the VR-800 lie to help Randi cover up his lies, and you guys are doing them the favor of perpetrating their lies, at my expense, of course. Very intelligent thinking.

ELLIE, go ahead and prove whatever you are going to prove. Don't let what I say stop you. Dell

[Dell Winders]

I have the original box for the VR800. The shipping label says it came from Dell, not Vernell.

- Carl

Not prove nothing, as Esteban's pics. OK?

NIHILL, don't worry about it. Carl, is being coy by pretending to be stupid. The world knows, and Carl knows that at one time I used, & sold Vernell products. It's no secret. Dell