Magnacast 5000

[ALEX.356]

Dear friend,
I appreciate the time you take to answer my questions.

" wouldn't I prefer to use a real transmitter" . . .?
Yes , I would.
Obviously you are making a hint that Magnacast 5000 in NOT a real transmitter. . . As I am not in a position to know...I ask what is the output of this transmitter ? Isn't it written in the manual ?
What would you consider enough output in such a case ?

I do take seriously what Mike says about it , that it is perhaps 50-100 times stronger than the MFD s he has tested. Kindly comment on this.

Cordial regards,

ALEX.

[J_Player]

From what I have read, the Magnacast 5000 is similar to the other MFDs that are manufactured by Vernell Electronics, and is a simple variation of the theme. It is hard for me to believe any of the Vernell equipment can work because there is not a single incidence of someone demonstrating it locating unknown treasures in front of witnesses.

But the best evidence I have that the transmitter is simply a signal generator with no power amplifier or tuning coil is the circuit diagram shown by Carl NC when he opened the VR-800 MFD (a similar MFD manufactured by Vernell). This was a predecessor to the Magnacast 5000 which also is claimed to work on the same "forward gauss" detection principle as the other MFDs that Vernell manufactures. The difference is the 5000 comes with the coil receiver instead of L rods to scan the field. See Carl's report for the VR 800 here: http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/page...r800/index.dat

Here is the VR 800 circuit. Do you think you can broadcast an RF signal if you connect Vout to a rod stuck in the ground, or to a small antenna set on the ground?
Wouldn't a real transmitter work better, even if it is only a cheap $10 pocket transmitter?



A close look at the circuit will show there is no RF power stage or tuning coils. This circuit is a simple square wave signal generator that is optimized to create a product that can switch on lights for a nameplate that says copper, gold, silver lead, tin and diamond. If you wanted a circuit that does this, can't you build the exact same circuit for less than $5?
Do you really believe the Magnacast 5000 has high tech circuitry inside and a real transmitter?
Why not open one and see what's inside?
Do you think you will find what everyone else found inside the Vernell products?



More evidence came when Dell Winders had something to say about the Vernell locator concerning his failure to win the Randi prize by locating coins hidden in the sand:

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

...conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988

But looking at the circuit, my opinion is conditions never existed that would make any Vernell product practical for use by anyone except a rich person who wanted a plastic box with 6 leds on the front, or a child who wanted a toy to play with.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ALEX.356]

My friend ,
you oblige me with all your effort to assist me.

Question : Has anyone else attempted to make a similar devise on a more serious basis ? i.e with a real transmitter and directional receiver ?

Kind regards,

ALEX

[Geo]

Originally Posted by ALEX.356

My friend ,
you oblige me with all your effort to assist me.

Question : Has anyone else attempted to make a similar devise on a more serious basis ? i.e with a real transmitter and directional receiver ?

Kind regards,

ALEX

Hi Alex.
There is a problem with the directional receiver. It must have very-very narrow bandwidth so to minimise the noise

Regards

[ALEX.356]

and is it so difficult to acomplish , my friend ? [ narrow bandwidth ]

ALEX.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by ALEX.356

My friend ,
you oblige me with all your effort to assist me.

Question : Has anyone else attempted to make a similar devise on a more serious basis ? i.e with a real transmitter and directional receiver ?

Kind regards,

ALEX

The method of using a loop antenna to survey an area that is exposed to RF is a standard way that geologists determine what is under the ground. They carry a hand-held loop antenna connected to their receiver while they walk across the area they want to survey. The transmitter is usually a large VLF transmitter hundreds of miles away operated by the military or some government which broadcasts at a frequency between 5 KHz to 30 Khz, or sometimes higher. If there is no reliable VLF transmitter nearby, then the geologist may set up his own portable VLF transmitter to send RF into the ground for his survey. When the geologist is done recording the readings of his survey, he can make a map to show a diagram of the geological structures beneath the soil. The geologist is interested in mapping rock formations and other geologic structures, not hunting treasure.

This geologist's method is the basis for the idea that treasure hunters use for detecting metals under the ground when using an RF receiver coil survey. Early experimenters set up loop antenna transmitters and used loop receiver coils to find large buried metal objects a century ago. Today, experimenters have built detectors in various configurations that send out VLF signals and check the signal with a loop coil receiver. You can find some technical information about how to do this in this thread: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16216

In the second half of the thread, WM6 and Seden become involved to help with their knowledge from their experience in ameteur radio, and explain some important details about the equipment, frequencies and power needed to expect some response. You will also see others posted ideas which include a few experimental projects that are related to the loop coil survey method.

There are also some other threads that show more about this.

Best wishses,
J_P

[fenixdigger]

Mike; I am considering getting one of these units. A couple of questions, how well does it really locate, what was the effect of the modification, and how quick can you locate something from the point of getting out of the car?
thanks, <><> LT

[Geo]

Originally Posted by ALEX.356

and is it so difficult to acomplish , my friend ? [ narrow bandwidth ]

ALEX.

Simply, it is not so easy.
It is something like EMFAD but for small or medium size objects we need more sensitive device

Regards

[Mike(Mont)]

I'll try to address a few issues here. First off I want to say the so-called "electronics experts" do not seem to understand how an MFD works. Either that or they are intentionally trying to muddy the waters. I have tried about forty times to get people to read the book "Supersensonics" by Christopher Hills. Instead of embracing the book and author (In my opinion Hills is the most knowledgable person on the entire subject.) you get people attacking his wife and calling him a crackpot among other things. I don't have time to go into detail about his, but I highly recommend the book to anyone who claims to have electronics knowledge. Very briefly, the signal line that develops in resonance with the target acts like a type of antenna. Of course with L-rods, the receiver is the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness necessary to "make sense" of it all. Even when using an electronic receiver, the person needs a brain and a few mental skills to interpret what is happening. Anyone who tries to compare this to a metal detector is either deceptive or --deleted--. You cannot compare the two.

When I gave the figure of fifty to one-hundred times more powerful, I have to admit this is only an estimate. I have not actually measured the output in wattage. What I did was to hold an AM radio near a frequency generator and approximate the distance I could receive the audible tone, then compared this with the Magnacast. I didn't actually even measure the distance, but it was somewhere in that range.

I haven't tried to detect large objects like cars from a distance, but I see no problems.

When I went to a city park, I set up the transmitter twice and used a metal detector at the point of intersection. To do everything properly according to the instructions, it can easily take an hour or more.

I also want to point out I am not a salesman. I have no idea what your abilities of learning to use this device are. I don't even use it the way the instructions recommend. I don't care to spend hours training someone "for the good of society". If you buy one and can't get it to work, I can give you a few pointers (go back and read some of my posts) but you are on your own. It's actually more complicated than using L-rods, and the emotional variable is not completely eliminated. If you have a negative outlook (skeptic) I would not recommend one. A skeptic can easily talk themself out of just about anything.

That's all I have for now.

[Mike(Mont)]

One more note here. For some stupid reason some people think that if a device works they are somehow guaranteed to find treasure. Well, that's just not the case. And blaming the device solves nothing.

[Mike(Mont)]

Much of the argument against MFD has centered around power output (wattage). This is about as faulty logic as saying horsepower is the only factor for a racing car. Most people in the know realize this and it is evident in the low power of the devices that are on the market past and present. Electronic receivers appear to require more power.

[Mike(Mont)]

I posted this quite a while back. There is an article from Borderlands research about Ground Antennas that might shed some light on this. The article is packed with interesting, even bizarre info. Observation #3 talks about the act of listening to a station being tuned can actually increase the reception. Also lunar phases have an effect on which direction the signals can be more strongly detected.

[J_Player]

Hmmm.... We find some answers:

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

When I gave the figure of fifty to one-hundred times more powerful, I have to admit this is only an estimate. I have not actually measured the output in wattage.

Assuming this measurement was made between a non-Vernell product and the Magnacast 5000, we are comparing the power transmitted into the air when you put the output of the 555 op amp on a small antenna set on the ground, and the power measured when you connect the output to an L-rod. We assume that both signal generators are 555 op amps sending a small, unamplified audio frequency square wave to whatever you connect them. However, we don't know how the 555 is coupled to the L-rod, or what current limiting components could be impeding the power output. In short, we don't know what circuits we are comparing. We only know Mike(Mont) says he can hear some interference on his AM radio at a longer distance from the Magnacast 5000. Do you suppose it would be good to see some microvolt readings taken in the air at different distances?

This brings to mind another interesting detail. When we hear there is AM radio sound interference, this is a common indication that the signal generator is operating in the audio or VLF range, not UHF. In fact, this AM audio tone was also described by Dell Winders and others when they set a radio near their 555 signal generators adjusted to frequencies less than 6 KHz. Judging from what Mike(Mont) has told us, I am becoming more convinced the Magnacast 5000 contains no RF transmitter at all, and is simply a 555 square wave generator operating in a range below 6 KHz.

So why would we use a signal generator to locate metals?
The theory is because various metals are claimed to vibrate at the frequency you set the signal generator for, and will establish a "signal line" between the signal generator and the buried metal that is vibrating at the same frequency.

But now we learn this theory is not really true. As Mike(Mont) explains:

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

"Someone who is skilled with the rods is going to be able to detect a signal line much sooner than with an electronic receiver"
...Of course with L-rods, the receiver is the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness necessary to "make sense" of it all. Even when using an electronic receiver, the person needs a brain and a few mental skills to interpret what is happening. Anyone who tries to compare this to a metal detector is either deceptive or --deleted--. You cannot compare the two.

Now, we see it is not the signal generator that is responsible for sensing the signal line at all.
This is a line that is established in the mind of a person who has the idea there is a signal line -- not the equipment.
We now know the receiver is the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness.
So what is the signal generator for?

We know that in earlier days of medicine, doctors would often give patients sugar pills, telling them it is medicine that would help heal their specific ailment. And in many cases, the patient would heal after taking the sugar pill. In fact there is much literature published describing the effect of using placebos to describe how they can influence how a patient precieves he is healing after taking a placebo which he believes is medicine. What these reports don't focus on is that in many cases, the doctor may have seen in his diagnosis that the ailment had run its course, and the patient would heal shortly regardless of what further remdies were applied. Of course, the patient would become even more convinced he had a great doctor after taking the sugar pills and healing.

In any case, the placebo had no effect on the ailment, so it couldn't hurt the healing progress, and at best, the patient would become convinced he was using powerful medicine. Could this be the principle of the signal generator in a MFD locator? Does the treasure hunter become convinced the signal generator will help him find buried metal, then look longer and harder until he finds something buried to further convince him the signal generator located the treasure?

Not according to Mike(Mont)'s debunkering of "signal line" theory. The L-rod is the antenna, and the receiver is definitely the human body, brain, nervous system, and consciousness necessary to "make sense" of it all. So we see, according to Mike(Mont) that no signal generator will locate buried treasure - It is a human body that does the locating. If you become convinced that a signal generator with no power stage can help you to locate treasure, then you must have this signal generator to help you believe that you will find treasure. This is good medicine for your mind and nervous system to become attuned to the "signal line". But never doubt that the signal generator is helping you find treasure. If you think of it as simply another sugar pill, it definitely will stop working! Maybe you keep this signal generator nearby while you dig more and more holes to locate some buried metal. Hopefully you will find more buried metal than a person who has no signal generator or L-rods and who digs the same number of holes.

A final thought: If you expect to find a lot of treasure using Mike(Mont)'s technique, then there will be a substantial learning period which may never end. You can expect to need to practice several variants of meditation, and to stand in some unusual positions that may appear you are trying to be a scarecrow in a field. You will see that according to Mike(Mont), the L rod antennas are not even necessary. They only make the "signal line" easier to pick up. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...&postcount=214

But wait...
Doesn't this make the need to spend $1800 for a 555 signal generator unnecessary?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Bill512]

Mike ,how about pinpointing a massive test target?
Do you have any experience on this, using the Magnacast along with the scan gun?
Usually, using a classic MFD configuration, (signal generator + coil for transmitter + L-rods for line detection) we have a significant deviation.
The pinpoint accuracy for small targets(2-3 coins) is ok, but if we increase the test target mass, the L-rods indicates that the target is several meters away.
For example in our test site, a 48 Kilogram copper target has a deviation at about 25 meters.
Also,a extra deviation is added, according to the years which the target is buried.
So, i think there is no way to pinpoint a real treasure using the classic L-rods.
The human body as part of the receiver ,acts most like a differential amplifier.
It is indeed very sensitive, but i think that senses the degree of field changes, something like the first derivative and not the absolute values.
And furthermore, every human as a receiver, has his own level of sensitivity.
I have tried to chart the sensitivity of about 20 MFD users and the distribution of sensitivity looks like a Gaussian ,but the sample is small to be sure.

[ALEX.356]

Dear friend,
I read your thoughts carefully enough.
I wish to bring to your attention the fact that Mike is a dowser, i.e. sensitive enough to feel the signal BUT in Magnacast 5000 we are talking about an electronic device NOT a dowsing rod.
Try to distance yourself from this trap.
Let's come back to the same subject.

Why is it difficult [according to GEO ] to have a narrow bandwidth RF emission ? Does it require materials not readily available in the market ?

Nobody has tried to make a serious transmitter [ IF Magnacast 5000 is not. . .] ? ? ?
We have no member in this Forum that is intrigued by this approach ?
to try and experiment with these " Signal Lines " ??? using a strong transmitter ???
The "forward Gauss" Bull...S... has blocked your mind and ridiculed this project [approach I shoud prefer to say ] ? ? ?

Thanks for listening to my thoughts,

ALex.

[fenixdigger]

I have boosted the frequency output and it causes the "GHOST" signals to really stand out. From my experience the signal will appear on one of the
"RINGS" where crossed by a N/S or E/W "RAY". This may be caused by not having a "pure" frequency. A mystery to me but very evident on old targets.
Most of the time we have been 75 to 250 ft. off on the first location. A return trip right after a thunderstorm seems to put us right on target. LT

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

One more note here. For some stupid reason some people think that if a device works they are somehow guaranteed to find treasure. Well, that's just not the case. And blaming the device solves nothing.

Mike, it is not blaming that device is working or not working, but how it is working.

Is it working regarding producer claims or it is only "working".

E.g. My pocket calculator is working, but not as MD, let alone LRL.

So, according you I can start to sell my working calculator as LRL, because to be working LRL there is not need to find something.?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by ALEX.356

I read your thoughts carefully enough.
I wish to bring to your attention the fact that Mike is a dowser, i.e. sensitive enough to feel the signal BUT in Magnacast 5000 we are talking about an electronic device NOT a dowsing rod.
Try to distance yourself from this trap.
Let's come back to the same subject.

Yes,
You are correct!
Mike(Mont) is setting a trap because he wants us to think dowsing is necessary for using the Magnacast 5000. We see the Magnacast 5000 has no dowsing rods. Only a signal generator and a coil type receiver. I will become smart and ignore the crazy ascertations of Mike(Mont) telling us we must use dowsing methods with the Magnacast 5000.

Originally Posted by ALEX.356

Nobody has tried to make a serious transmitter [ IF Magnacast 5000 is not. . .] ? ? ?
We have no member in this Forum that is intrigued by this approach ?
The "forward Gauss" Bull...S... has blocked your mind and ridiculed this project [approach I shoud prefer to say ] ? ? ?

None of the Vernell Electronics LRLs have any transmitting equipment in them. They are simple signal generators that are not connected to any transmitter or RF power stage. In order to build a transmitter, you need to establish a frequency (usually a low power signal generator), then send it to a power stage using one or more power transistors that are capable of developing enough power to broadcast an RF signal into the air through an antenna. The antenna would be most likely a coil type for a portable transmitter, and it would broadcast the VLF into the air in a manner that it can be absorbed into the ground. At the lower VLF frequencies (5KHz to 20KHZ), the RF can penetrate the ground deeper than the average treasure hunter would care to dig.

I have already shown where people are interested in this. The method of surveying the ground with VLF broadcast signals is a well established science used by geologists. Any detectorist can use a real VLF transmitter to send RF into the ground, then use a coil receiver to survey the ground and determine what is under the ground. No development work is needed. You can buy the transmitters and receivers today from the same suppliers that sell to geologists. For much less cost, you can make your own VLF transmitter and receiver with a hand held coil. In fact, you don't even need to build a transmitter if you are in an area where a government transmitter is operating. All you need is a receiver. Very similar to AM radio receiver, except much lower frequency, and a large hand-held coil.

The BS about "forward gauss" means this is only a word the manufacturer made up from his mind. It does not exist except in his mind. No engineer or scientist has ever heard of forward gauss, or been able to observe it or measure it with calibrated scientific instruments.

But the BS about "signal lines" is also a word people made up from their mind. Signal lines do not exist except in people's minds. No engineer or scientist has ever heard of "signal lines", or been able to observe them or measure them with calibrated scientific instruments.

The use of VLF to determine what is under the ground does not depend on any particular kind of gauss or signal lines. The variations in the receiver measurements depends on the properties of the ground. The fluctuations come because the ground is more or less conductive in different areas, and can absorb more of the RF than other areas that are less conductive. These variations tell a lot about what is under the ground, and allow geologists and other engineers to map what is beneath the ground on large areas of land.

The idea of detecting treasure with coil receivers and using real VLF transmitters has been discussed many times in Remote Sensing forum. In the second half of one thread, there are details given on how to make the equipment needed. Here is the link again for people in this forum who are interested in this idea: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16216

Best wishes,
J_P

[fenixdigger]

Mike; since you have had the unit for some time, and I am sure a lot of practice has went on, do you still like the unit, or is there a better way to go at present? Thanks, LT

[WM6]

Originally Posted by J_Player

I have already shown where people are interested in this. The method of surveying the ground with VLF broadcast signals is a well established science used by geologists. Any detectorist can use a real VLF transmitter to send RF into the ground, then use a coil receiver to survey the ground and determine what is under the ground. No development work is needed. You can buy the transmitters and receivers today from the same suppliers that sell to geologists. For much less cost, you can make your own VLF transmitter and receiver with a hand held coil. In fact, you don't even need to build a transmitter if you are in an area where a government transmitter is operating. All you need is a receiver. Very similar to AM radio receiver, except much lower frequency, and a large hand-held coil.

J_P

Very well explained J_P. And probably the only real working method for (reasonable) remote searching.

All other methods are for todays MD reality only out of planetary theoretising, dreams or delusions. If they are sold it is about scam.

[Mike(Mont)]

Originally Posted by fenixdigger

Mike; since you have had the unit for some time, and I am sure a lot of practice has went on, do you still like the unit, or is there a better way to go at present? Thanks, LT

I haven't tested everything on the market so I don't know. As I said, L-rods will pinpoint better once you are on the signal line and they are much faster, but you have to know how to use them and sometimes L-rods can be difficult to operate. Of course you have the option to use either the rods or the electronic receiver.

I like the option of being able to adjust the power level, but this is not always perfect. More power can cause distortion, and aluminum will cause a reflection with any MFD/HID type equipment. Magnetic images are worse with some equipment. I suppose that is part of learning. Usually you can see a phase (polarity) change as you walk through the various images or reflactions and remember the images are weaker from the southerly direction. That's why I like to come in from a non-cardinal point direction like SE, but I don't always work conventionally anyway. You should always check the area for images and possibly come back later or at night if you can't work around them.

Here again you should read "Supersensonics" to get an idea of what you are even dealing with. Hills is absolutely the most knowledgable person on the subject. Even if you can't understand his concepts, read through it anyway. Some day the light will come on. Of course if you can'ty locate in the first place (negative attitude/skeptic) you probably will be totally lost. Again, remember the signal line acts as an antenna.

[Mike(Mont)]

I know some people refuse to read about locating, but that is not a sign of intelligence. I would recommend you read everything possible. I like the info on ground antenna from Borderlands. Read the part about lunar phases.

[fenixdigger]

Thanks a lot Mike. I started out with the manual #100 from Don Jones in 1989 and then got the info from Larry Williams in 1990.
We started using a C-B radio to check static conditions. We found even a White's tm 808 is affected. I guess I'm just tired of digging the aluminum and brass and looking for a better way to up the % of good finds. Seems I find the small ones and the good ones get past me. Of course they are the old
ones and a lot harder to locate anyway. LT

[Jim]

Originally Posted by fenixdigger

Thanks a lot Mike. I started out with the manual #100 from Don Jones in 1989 and then got the info from Larry Williams in 1990.
We started using a C-B radio to check static conditions. We found even a White's tm 808 is affected. I guess I'm just tired of digging the aluminum and brass and looking for a better way to up the % of good finds. Seems I find the small ones and the good ones get past me. Of course they are the old
ones and a lot harder to locate anyway. LT

I read on another internet forum that you own and operate two of the RangerTell examiners. Are you alluding that RangeTell devices do not locate/recover valuable treasures?

[fenixdigger]

They will locate treasure. They will also locate brass and very old iron while on the gold freq. A lot of my sites have both. Now this is a good thing IF the
gold is in an iron box and there is no brass around. I'm sure that sooner or later I will be able to knock these out. Silver is no problem. I sent Art some of the first silver I found thanks to his help. It is hard to believe what those things can do. I scanned a friends land for crude oil and the depths that I got hits on were exactly where the deposits in this area are. I had no idea about the different layers but my friend sure did and 1 of them had been found previously. My biggest problem is the dam wind. Since Christmas, there has been 8 days the bird feeder hasn't been swinging. Tried an umbrella sideways.
that won't happen again. I'm using them but would like something to use when I can't use them. LT