Post photo of your LRL project?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Robert

I really dont have a clue what really do you want? You want to detect coin at 40 meters distance (or whatever) but you dont have clear concept how to do that.

I do not want to build a LRL for the purpose of hunting for coins. I want to build a detector similar to Esteban style coil detectors so I can make independent tests to see if it responds to actual buried metals like he says it does.

What I am looking for is a detector like Esteban uses except built using calculations rather than simple experimenting with old radio circuit boards. From what you said, it is not possible to build a detector similar to Esteban's coil transmitters and operate a receiver at the same time. I do not know how he managed to run a coil transmitter without smoking his receiver, but he says he did. From this I must conclude the only possible way to construct one of these is by using the method Esteban uses.

However, that is impossible too, because Esteban has never posted a complete schematic with coil details that would permit building the style coil detectors he uses. I guess this means nobody will ever make any independent tests to see if his detectors work. The closest we have seen is Morgan's report of a detector made by Alonso, But Mogan's report was only for a few examples of what he saw. not the kind of testing to show what electrical signals were in the circuitry when it made beeping noise.

So we will continue with no information of how to test the reports of detecting buried metals at long range because it is said to be impossible.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Originally Posted by J_Player

I do not know how he managed to run a coil transmitter without smoking his receiver, but he says he did. J_P

This is absolutely not an issue.In practice everyone can transmit and receive at the same time with any transceiver witout smoking anything.Any full duplex radio will do that , even in same band and with non-nulled antennas.And Robert knows it if he build cordless phones.Overloading maybe a problem, but problems doesnt exists, only solutions.

And i certainly hope Robert will participate ,as JP and Esteban says, to associate theory to practical observations.Only this way a project can really be improved.
But we need here to keep an OPEN MIND !!!!
regards,
Fred.

[roberts]

You must distinguish "duplex" from single frequency we are talking about here. Cordless phones usually do have huge difference in frequencies between base unit and mobile unit.
In some older models differences are more than 10MHz. Same thing with communication tranceivers.Most popular VHF(2m 144-146MHZ) is best example. In simplex once you press TX knob, RX circuitry switching OFF, so only transmitting is going ON. In repeaters mode, there is 600kHz difference between TX and RX frequency...etc.etc...even than RX is switched OFF, due strong EM field generated arround antena, which can easily burn RX front end.
OK if you want to use same freq. in this purpose, only way i can imagine it is to use pretty fast multiplexer. This will end with pretty complex design but totally trivial. So again, without to offend somebodys feelings, i guarantee there is no way that Esteban's device works in manner he described.No way.
If something he experienced for real, i do beleive he did, than he didnt find proper way to explain that here. Either he do not know how to explain, either he do not want to explain. It is not my job to analyze his thoughts and intentions, i can only comment his posts here.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Robert

OK if you want to use same freq. in this purpose, only way i can imagine it is to use pretty fast multiplexer. This will end with pretty complex design but totally trivial. So again, without to offend somebodys feelings, i guarantee there is no way that Esteban's device works in manner he described.No way.

Hi Robert,
The way Esteban described did not use a multiplexer at all. It used a transmitter and a receiver both with a coil antenna tuned to oscillate at the same frequency. When I look at the amount of wire that you say must be used to receive signals from a loop in the 455 Khz range, I wonder how the AM and SW bands are able to operate with wire loops of much smaller length wire. I see some of these radios using ferrite loops the size of your finger. Others use air core loops that fit on the back plane of the radio enclosure box, and have less than 30 feet of wire in them.

I have seen examples of mobile radio receivers tuned to the same frequency as transmitter, and can operate with the receiving antenna touching the transmitter antenna without causing any damage to the receiver. One example is my cordless phone. When I hold the receiving antenna against the transmitting base antenna I hear the demodulated sound as perfectly as if the receiver is 30 feet away from the transmitter. There has never been any damage to the hand held receiver from holding the antenna against the transmitting antenna. I imagine if I were to put the mobile phone transmitter and receiver into the same box, the receiver will still work as well as it does when removed from the box. Now, if the cordless phone was modified to work with a low frequency, and using a coil antenna, I believe the coil antennas could be easily made to fit in the same cordless phone enclosures, and would still operate without destroying the receiver when touching the TX and RX coils together.

Is it possible Esteban used the same method as a cordless phone uses to avoid destroying the receiver of his LRL detectors when the transmitter and receiver are in the same box? Is it possible that Esteban discovered a method of receiving radio waves with much smaller wire lengths than you specify, that is only known to radio receiver manufacturers and Esteban, but not you?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by roberts

You must distinguish "duplex" from single frequency we are talking about here. Cordless phones usually do have huge difference in frequencies between base unit and mobile unit.
In some older models differences are more than 10MHz. Same thing with communication tranceivers.Most popular VHF(2m 144-146MHZ) is best example. In simplex once you press TX knob, RX circuitry switching OFF, so only transmitting is going ON. In repeaters mode, there is 600kHz difference between TX and RX frequency...etc.etc...even than RX is switched OFF, due strong EM field generated arround antena, which can easily burn RX front end.
OK if you want to use same freq. in this purpose, only way i can imagine it is to use pretty fast multiplexer. This will end with pretty complex design but totally trivial. So again, without to offend somebodys feelings, i guarantee there is no way that Esteban's device works in manner he described.No way.
If something he experienced for real, i do beleive he did, than he didnt find proper way to explain that here. Either he do not know how to explain, either he do not want to explain. It is not my job to analyze his thoughts and intentions, i can only comment his posts here.

Hi Robert,
even if I still think that 40meters for a coin is little hard to belive... I think that maybe Esteban noticed something unusual about radio signals we maybe ignore or don't even think about much when talking about that stuff.

The means of detecting long or short waves or medium etc with small antennas is well known from at least 1century: use a tuned circuit... you'll increase Q and you'll gain selectivity ... for example using a ferrite rod on coil... then you'll get also directivity that way.

Actually most of radio equipments works like above: have inside smaller coils or antennas than required for 1/2 or 1/4 wavelenght... that's totally impossible to implement in small e.g. portable radios etc but also for most base stations... did you ever seen any 20Km wire/dipole antenna? maybe you just read about.... as many others here.

Now cleared this point , infact really obvious thing you can see in any AM/broadcast portable radio receiver... we can talk about the things we saw in posts and Esteban told us.

OK, tx and rx tuned on same frequency ? Where's the problem ? Nexus, Saxon, Anker and many others vlf/ib detectors use exactly that approach... or am I wrong ?

Rx saturation ? Why ? much depends on gain, nulling etc it's not automatic result that Rx stage will saturate always and easy just cause of coils disposition and factors you explained... Nexus is again a good example: one hundred and more volts peak to peak at tx and rx is stable... detector find stuff etc etc etc
Does Nexus violate any physics law ?
Why resonance is a problem ...? I cannot understand this.

Could all this be used to detect a coin at 40meters? I think not. But , who knows... also before Wright's flight many excelent engineers and designers etc told to the World that was impossible to happen! Then it happened and they lose their bets and money!

You know... I'm not Esteban's supporter here... or Alonso supporter... or anyone else supporter... and think many stuff around LRLs is totally fake...I repeated here so many times... but resonace, for me, is not the problem...

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

I use only receiver part, because when occurs the detection the background noise is little up (maybe the hear can't catch, but the audio generator convert the difference in beeps).

But off course, you can use transmitter as receiver catching microvariations occurs in transmission beam. This is other way for to see the film. Can appears extrange, but is part of the experience.

I understand what happens with many of us: wish to dress with all the possible theories and later start to work in it. If you can't find the theory wich support it, find you it in the field.

Regards

Esteban

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I use only receiver part, because when occurs the detection the background noise is little up (maybe the hear can't catch, but the audio generator convert the difference in beeps).

But off course, you can use transmitter as receiver catching microvariations occurs in transmission beam. This is other way for to see the film. Can appears extrange, but is part of the experience.

I understand what happens with many of us: wish to dress with all the possible theories and later start to work in it. If you can't find the theory wich support it, find you it in the field.

Regards

Esteban

Hi Esteban,

You always tease us with your block diagrams.
What is in the "gold classifier"?

[roberts]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Robert,
The way Esteban described did not use a multiplexer at all. It used a transmitter and a receiver both with a coil antenna tuned to oscillate at the same frequency. When I look at the amount of wire that you say must be used to receive signals from a loop in the 455 Khz range, I wonder how the AM and SW bands are able to operate with wire loops of much smaller length wire. I see some of these radios using ferrite loops the size of your finger. Others use air core loops that fit on the back plane of the radio enclosure box, and have less than 30 feet of wire in them.

I have seen examples of mobile radio receivers tuned to the same frequency as transmitter, and can operate with the receiving antenna touching the transmitter antenna without causing any damage to the receiver. One example is my cordless phone. When I hold the receiving antenna against the transmitting base antenna I hear the demodulated sound as perfectly as if the receiver is 30 feet away from the transmitter. There has never been any damage to the hand held receiver from holding the antenna against the transmitting antenna. I imagine if I were to put the mobile phone transmitter and receiver into the same box, the receiver will still work as well as it does when removed from the box. Now, if the cordless phone was modified to work with a low frequency, and using a coil antenna, I believe the coil antennas could be easily made to fit in the same cordless phone enclosures, and would still operate without destroying the receiver when touching the TX and RX coils together.

Is it possible Esteban used the same method as a cordless phone uses to avoid destroying the receiver of his LRL detectors when the transmitter and receiver are in the same box? Is it possible that Esteban discovered a method of receiving radio waves with much smaller wire lengths than you specify, that is only known to radio receiver manufacturers and Esteban, but not you?

Best wishes,
J_P

J Player, it seems that you dont read my post at all.Or you just took skim look on few lines and than not trying to understand my point!?
I just explained situation at cordless phones!? Didnt I???
Base and mobile unit DOES NOT operate at same frequency at all! Difference in those is H U G E ! Read this; H U G E !!! At old 30-59Mhz phones diffrences were 10-15 MHZ ! Read again 10-15MHz ! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME NOW?
In newer cordless phones (900-1800MHZ) differences ARE EVEN BIGGER!
MUCH BIGGER! I have to write capitals here just to attract your attention to read and understand this.
You are talking about small ferrite rod antennas for AM 500-1600kHz...
Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!! Have you ever heard of "electonic lenght"? Have you ever heard that term? Seriouslly i have doubts!
Well, that small ferrite rod antena has "electronic" lenght od W/4 or W/2 and in few rare cases even W - full lenght. But usually selectivity in that case is not that great. That was the price had to be payed making small portable, handy, COMERCIAL AM recivers..
So...i will repeat words i told in last post to Esteban. People i am really tired and exhausted from every day job to come here and teach you basics and fundamentals.It is not that i dont have good will...i am just to tired.
Please read some basics about radio before come here and talk nonsences.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by roberts

J Player, it seems that you dont read my post at all.Or you just took skim look on few lines and than not trying to understand my point!?
I just explained situation at cordless phones!? Didnt I???
Base and mobile unit DOES NOT operate at same frequency at all! Difference in those is H U G E ! Read this; H U G E !!! At old 30-59Mhz phones diffrences were 10-15 MHZ ! Read again 10-15MHz ! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME NOW?
In newer cordless phones (900-1800MHZ) differences ARE EVEN BIGGER!
MUCH BIGGER! I have to write capitals here just to attract your attention to read and understand this.
You are talking about small ferrite rod antennas for AM 500-1600kHz...
Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!! Have you ever heard of "electonic lenght"? Have you ever heard that term? Seriouslly i have doubts!
Well, that small ferrite rod antena has "electronic" lenght od W/4 or W/2 and in few rare cases even W - full lenght. But usually selectivity in that case is not that great. That was the price had to be payed making small portable, handy, COMERCIAL AM recivers..
So...i will repeat words i told in last post to Esteban. People i am really tired and exhausted from every day job to come here and teach you basics and fundamentals.It is not that i dont have good will...i am just to tired.
Please read some basics about radio before come here and talk nonsences.

The problem is you wish to explain from your radioafiction hobby, and not about possibilities. Your experience is regarding talking with radio, no building it, maybe you don't touch the solder iron as many theorics... Put the limits yourself, leave other investigate in real field, not from a chair and computer only...

Regards

Esteban

[roberts]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi Robert,
even if I still think that 40meters for a coin is little hard to belive... I think that maybe Esteban noticed something unusual about radio signals we maybe ignore or don't even think about much when talking about that stuff.

The means of detecting long or short waves or medium etc with small antennas is well known from at least 1century: use a tuned circuit... you'll increase Q and you'll gain selectivity ... for example using a ferrite rod on coil... then you'll get also directivity that way.

Actually most of radio equipments works like above: have inside smaller coils or antennas than required for 1/2 or 1/4 wavelenght... that's totally impossible to implement in small e.g. portable radios etc but also for most base stations... did you ever seen any 20Km wire/dipole antenna? maybe you just read about.... as many others here.

Now cleared this point , infact really obvious thing you can see in any AM/broadcast portable radio receiver... we can talk about the things we saw in posts and Esteban told us.

OK, tx and rx tuned on same frequency ? Where's the problem ? Nexus, Saxon, Anker and many others vlf/ib detectors use exactly that approach... or am I wrong ?

Rx saturation ? Why ? much depends on gain, nulling etc it's not automatic result that Rx stage will saturate always and easy just cause of coils disposition and factors you explained... Nexus is again a good example: one hundred and more volts peak to peak at tx and rx is stable... detector find stuff etc etc etc
Does Nexus violate any physics law ?
Why resonance is a problem ...? I cannot understand this.

Could all this be used to detect a coin at 40meters? I think not. But , who knows... also before Wright's flight many excelent engineers and designers etc told to the World that was impossible to happen! Then it happened and they lose their bets and money!

You know... I'm not Esteban's supporter here... or Alonso supporter... or anyone else supporter... and think many stuff around LRLs is totally fake...I repeated here so many times... but resonace, for me, is not the problem...

Kind regards,
Max

Although i respect you much more than others (ivconics credits upon you) i have to admit that now even you disapointed me!? It seems that you also didnt read my posts carefully and didnt understand it?
"Nexus,Saxon,Anker..."?? What are you comparing here? Those machines are using balanced coils, man! Balanced! TX and RX coils are balnced in manner that only minor induction occurs in RX part without metal in its vicinity.Thats why RX front end is not in full saturation, thats why any detection is possible. Ask Quiaozhi here about making coils for Nexus!? Most difficult and most tricky part of all...in Nexus designing.
What the heck this got to do with subject here? As i understood, subject is Estebans device, sort of hybrid between radio and md...or something simillar. I dont even have a proper name for it?
J Player gave here rough picture about what he is interesting to make. Ok ...
J Player you can use cordless phone (or only some parts from it) but it will still run on different frequencies! If you mod it and achieve to TX and RX do run on same frequencies than you'll get full saturation of RX and possible damage of front end.
I guess you mixed that RX part with some ordinary wide band radio? Am i right? RX part - reciver in cordless phone is strictly defined to receive only one frequency. That's why we put RX quartz there among few other things.
You said you can touch one to another antenna and nothing burns.I agree.
Few reasons for that.First very low power of used TX, second filters on RX does not allow oversaturation in simillar situations. Do examine MC3361 more carefully.Download its datasheet and read. Precautions had be taken to avoid simillar.
But you just can not use that in LRL as Esteban explained.That is my main point.
For the end i will again express my huge wonder about Estebans posts???
First (in earlier posts) he calimed to using TX in his design. Now (latest post) i read that he is using only receiver. Than agin he repeating something about transmitting...reciving...mixing???? The hell? Esteban are you real? Are your intentions here are to make jokes upon us or you just dont know what are you talking here...any more??? Calm down and decide what you gonna say in next post. First read your previous posts and than try to respect some consistency in presenting your idea here...
I am cofused more and more? I do not understand at all what are you talking here???
Come to think...maybe it was your initial idea?

[roberts]

Originally Posted by Esteban

The problem is you wish to explain from your radioafiction hobby, and not about possibilities. Your experience is regarding talking with radio, no building it, maybe you don't touch the solder iron as many theorics... Put the limits yourself, leave other investigate in real field, not from a chair and computer only...

Regards

Esteban

Radiofiction....??? What is that? I am ee and i had designed so many radio designs so far, that you cant imagine. Some of largest electronic manufacturers in the world (not allowed to name those) are using my designs today. I earned a lot of money with my electronic knowledge.Do you consider yourself smarter than those? Those payed me so much money and still they are stupid. Waiting you to clear them up? Ha?
I have electronic lab, every idea i do first practically to see if something goes wrong, before selling project to some customer (manufacturer).
I mentioned i am very tired these days. Yesterday just finished huge radio project. Today checked in lab. It is alive and good working. Money for me.
I am using soldering iron all my life...poor Esteban!
Let me explain the whole process. First initial idea is drawn on paper. Second data input in pc. Later simulator do their job. Finally drawing and making pcb and soldering components. Last is to plug it ON and watch results.Puting on test,probe..for week or two. All eventual mistakes to be corrected and last is to put it on closed market and sell.
That is my life for over 20 years. Now you come here and tell me that i am hobbyst??? OK i am hobbyst...but rich one!
I'll better continue to post posts in old manner.This new style is exhausting me more...

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by roberts

Although i respect you much more than others (ivconics credits upon you) i have to admit that now even you disapointed me!? It seems that you also didnt read my posts carefully and didnt understand it?
"Nexus,Saxon,Anker..."?? What are you comparing here? Those machines are using balanced coils, man! Balanced! TX and RX coils are balnced in manner that only minor induction occurs in RX part without metal in its vicinity.Thats why RX front end is not in full saturation, thats why any detection is possible. Ask Quiaozhi here about making coils for Nexus!? Most difficult and most tricky part of all...in Nexus designing.
What the heck this got to do with subject here? As i understood, subject is Estebans device, sort of hybrid between radio and md...or something simillar. I dont even have a proper name for it?
J Player gave here rough picture about what he is interesting to make. Ok ...
J Player you can use cordless phone (or only some parts from it) but it will still run on different frequencies! If you mod it and achieve to TX and RX do run on same frequencies than you'll get full saturation of RX and possible damage of front end.
I guess you mixed that RX part with some ordinary wide band radio? Am i right? RX part - reciver in cordless phone is strictly defined to receive only one frequency. That's why we put RX quartz there among few other things.
You said you can touch one to another antenna and nothing burns.I agree.
Few reasons for that.First very low power of used TX, second filters on RX does not allow oversaturation in simillar situations. Do examine MC3361 more carefully.Download its datasheet and read. Precautions had be taken to avoid simillar.
But you just can not use that in LRL as Esteban explained.That is my main point.
For the end i will again express my huge wonder about Estebans posts???
First (in earlier posts) he calimed to using TX in his design. Now (latest post) i read that he is using only receiver. Than agin he repeating something about transmitting...reciving...mixing???? The hell? Esteban are you real? Are your intentions here are to make jokes upon us or you just dont know what are you talking here...any more??? Calm down and decide what you gonna say in next post. First read your previous posts and than try to respect some consistency in presenting your idea here...
I am cofused more and more? I do not understand at all what are you talking here???
Come to think...maybe it was your initial idea?

Is your problem if you can't. Not mine. Your "logic" doesn't work here... since phenomenom has not explained by nobody, but there is waiting for you...

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by roberts

Radiofiction....??? What is that? I am ee and i had designed so many radio designs so far, that you cant imagine. Some of largest electronic manufacturers in the world (not allowed to name those) are using my designs today. I earned a lot of money with my electronic knowledge.Do you consider yourself smarter than those? Those payed me so much money and still they are stupid. Waiting you to clear them up? Ha?
I have electronic lab, every idea i do first practically to see if something goes wrong, before selling project to some customer (manufacturer).
I mentioned i am very tired these days. Yesterday just finished huge radio project. Today checked in lab. It is alive and good working. Money for me.
I am using soldering iron all my life...poor Esteban!
Let me explain the whole process. First initial idea is drawn on paper. Second data input in pc. Later simulator do their job. Finally drawing and making pcb and soldering components. Last is to plug it ON and watch results.Puting on test,probe..for week or two. All eventual mistakes to be corrected and last is to put it on closed market and sell.
That is my life for over 20 years. Now you come here and tell me that i am hobbyst??? OK i am hobbyst...but rich one!
I'll better continue to post posts in old manner.This new style is exhausting me more...

You as RObert told that radioafiction is your hobby, no radio-construction. I'll believe if Ivconic confirm it.

But directly tell you I don't need your supossed radio-background, this no mean nothing for my experimentations.

In other terms, I have faith in people wich works in radio and tell me: "yes, why not, radio is a potable way for to detect noble metals at distance" and can help with possible solutions. But if you, since your radio-background, negates it, poor Roberts!

Regards

Esteban

[Fred]

Originally Posted by roberts

Well, that small ferrite rod antena has "electronic" lenght od W/4 or W/2 and in few rare cases even W - full lenght. But usually selectivity in that case is not that great. That was the price had to be payed making small portable, handy, COMERCIAL AM recivers.....

Hopefully the antenna is not what determines selectivity.
Antennas for any frequency can be built with any lenght of wire,(efficiency may be a problem then),but very small loops can be built for very long wavelenght with great selectivity (wich ,generaly speaking,is a problem) and acceptable efficiency.

Originally Posted by roberts

As i understood, subject is Estebans device, sort of hybrid between radio and md...or something simillar. I dont even have a proper name for it?...

That´s the point :Esteban claims results, and we dont know what phenomenon causes them.So we try to learn.So we can give a name to it.

Originally Posted by roberts

receiver in cordless phone is strictly defined to receive only one frequency....

Not all of them.Many use frequency evasion and hopping.

Originally Posted by roberts

You said you can touch one to another antenna and nothing burns.I agree.Few reasons for that.First very low power of used TX, second filters on RX does not allow oversaturation in simillar situations. Do examine MC3361 more carefully.Download its datasheet and read. Precautions had be taken to avoid simillar.....

Powers involved are in the range of MD, or even more.

I was talking before about full duplex, you know there are dual-band transceivers that do simultaneous VHf/VHF and U/U RX ...I aslo can have 2 antenas side to side and transmit 50w in one ot them without smoking anything...of course it is not a good thing to do, but it does happen, and coupling is very strong here.No nulling, and no mw powers as in our subject!

Originally Posted by roberts

First (in earlier posts) he calimed to using TX in his design. Now (latest post) i read that he is using only receiver. Than agin he repeating something about transmitting...reciving...mixing???? The hell? Esteban are you real? ...

I think Esteban doesn´t really know what causes the effect , just like you and me.But he have observed something...

Fred.

[Esteban]

I work in different areas for long range detection and there are "slows" systems for to detect the phenomenom and very fast and "scandalous" at the point that the stretcher system detect a large rifle cartridge in an angle of 60º 10 meters in distance, some difficult to find, but for this open base system really a car mass very near no interrupt the detection!!!

Stretcher system tend to pick lead very near, so there are gradation in metals wich produce more electrical field than others.

Oscillator is "slow", radio is "semi-slow", infrared (modulated) in conjunction with radio is precisse... Microvoltmeter based on open base go long, 70 m for a small silver treasure we found at 80 cm depth... but very sensitive to electric lines...

All systems works with pros and contras...

[roberts]

Originally Posted by Fred

Hopefully the antenna is not what determines selectivity.
Antennas for any frequency can be built with any lenght of wire,(efficiency may be a problem then),but very small loops can be built for very long wavelenght with great selectivity (wich ,generaly speaking,is a problem) and acceptable efficiency.


That´s the point :Esteban claims results, and we dont know what phenomenon causes them.So we try to learn.So we can give a name to it.


Not all of them.Many use frequency evasion and hopping.


Powers involved are in the range of MD, or even more.

I was talking before about full duplex, you know there are dual-band transceivers that do simultaneous VHf/VHF and U/U RX ...I aslo can have 2 antenas side to side and transmit 50w in one ot them without smoking anything...of course it is not a good thing to do, but it does happen, and coupling is very strong here.No nulling, and no mw powers as in our subject!


I think Esteban doesn´t really know what causes the effect , just like you and me.But he have observed something...

Fred.

Fine notes (remarks). Just because of that kind of laic approach i suggested you to return to basics. Again thesis substitutions, again mixing to many different things togather.Again pulling out very wrong conclusions. It will take posts and posts to explain and set up all the things you mentioned above. I should be super human to withstand and explain all to you here.
For example have you ever heard about agc? Automatic gain control?
I see you are interested about things, but as i tought you took short,skim look at every of things mentioned here....
No antenna doesnt determining selectivity but strongly influencig it. Type of antenna. Small ferrite rod antena is compromise in portable units, later adopted in other types of comercial units also. Money talks - **** walks!
"Esteban calims results..." So what? Hung also, Dell also, Mineoro also,Gravitatir also,Ranger teller also...So?
Why is Esteban better,smarter and more honest than others? Ok he is our member fellow here, but it does not mean automatically he is speaking truth or he knows what he is speaking at all.Does it?


"Not all of them.Many use frequency evasion and hopping.."
Now i can name to you at least 50 various examples, principles,techniques..etc.etc. tralalah, tralalah!
We are talking here about Esteban,cordless phone,lrl hybrid. We are not talking here about every possible radio principle on this planet.
Have you ever heard about tetra systems?

"I aslo can have 2 antenas side to side and transmit 50w in one ot them without smoking anything..."

Really???! I would like to see that!? 50W???

"
I think Esteban doesn´t really know what causes the effect , just like you and me.But he have observed something..."

What? Few funny sketches? Wanna more? I can draw you 1000 000 more interesting without obligation to explain anything.
Remeber Iconos? Or any other "secret" LRL project?

This is usuall, same old story, like any other we had in the past on this forum.
Trlalalah..tralalah...When this subject expired,we will have short break and than all over again - new subject will appear, new "secret" allmighty lrl device.

[roberts]

Originally Posted by Esteban

You as RObert told that radioafiction is your hobby, no radio-construction. I'll believe if Ivconic confirm it.

He is not here to confirm this. Besides why should i ask anybody to confirm my life. Yes you are right, i am radiamateur also, for over the 25 years. That's how i met Ivconic, at the first place.

But directly tell you I don't need your supossed radio-background, this no mean nothing for my experimentations.

Obviously not. Your lost.

In other terms, I have faith in people wich works in radio and tell me: "yes, why not, radio is a potable way for to detect noble metals at distance" and can help with possible solutions. But if you, since your radio-background, negates it, poor Roberts!

That's why i "jumped" here! I wanted to be closely informed by you about your efforts, in manner to learn something new and eventually help you in your work..but as far as it concerned about radio stuff. I cant help you with impossible things. I can only help you with possible, already proven things.


Regards

Esteban

...

[Fred]

Robert,
I hesitated in answering , as this discussion dont seem to be very productive any more.But you put some questions,so i will shortly answer :

Originally Posted by roberts

Fine notes (remarks). Just because of that kind of laic approach i suggested you to return to basics. Again thesis substitutions, again mixing to many different things togather....

I just made some simple tecnhical observations.I believe they are correct.

Originally Posted by roberts

I should be super human to withstand and explain all to you here....

No problem

Originally Posted by roberts

For example have you ever heard about agc? Automatic gain control?....

Yes of course, this is the very basic of receivers .?? so ? You found the solution for your saturation problems...

Originally Posted by roberts

"Esteban calims results..." So what? Hung also, Dell also, Mineoro also,Gravitatir also,Ranger teller also...So?
Why is Esteban better,smarter and more honest than others? Ok he is our member fellow here, but it does not mean automatically he is speaking truth or he knows what he is speaking at all.Does it?...

Of course not, but unlike others we have still to prove what he says is wrong...he doens´t want to sell anything or try to convince anyone, i think.

Originally Posted by roberts

We are talking here about Esteban,cordless phone,lrl hybrid. We are not talking here about every possible radio principle on this planet.Have you ever heard about tetra systems?.

Ok, i see.Obviously Esteban dont need frequency changes.But i see in the IC that you call MC3361 a more advanced controller/PLL.I may be wrong of course.And yes i heard about Tetra,not very deeply but i found interesting that it is one of the few really "unbreakable" systems.

Originally Posted by roberts

"I aslo can have 2 antenas side to side and transmit 50w in one ot them without smoking anything"

Originally Posted by roberts

Really???! I would like to see that!? 50W???...

??? Well yes, any VHF transceiver has 50W RF output,come on Robert ,you know that and i have several antenas on same mast, so what´s the surprise?

Originally Posted by roberts

This is usuall, same old story, like any other we had in the past on this forum..

What about if it is different this time? how will you know if you reject it at first glance ?

Fred.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Roberts

J Player, it seems that you dont read my post at all.Or you just took skim look on few lines and than not trying to understand my point!?
I just explained situation at cordless phones!? Didnt I???
Base and mobile unit DOES NOT operate at same frequency at all! Difference in those is H U G E ! Read this; H U G E !!! At old 30-59Mhz phones diffrences were 10-15 MHZ ! Read again 10-15MHz ! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME NOW?
In newer cordless phones (900-1800MHZ) differences ARE EVEN BIGGER!
MUCH BIGGER! I have to write capitals here just to attract your attention to read and understand this.

It is not necessary to have radio engineering credentials in order to understand the duplex arrangement on cordless phones. Most of us are aware that there are two frequencies used. One for the base station to transmit to the mobile receiver, and a second frequency to transmit from the mobile handset to the base station. This is necessary in order to keep from confusing the 2-way communication. We also know that the handset receiver is receiving the same frequency that is transmitted from the base station. At the same time the base station is receiving the same second frequency that is transmitted from the handset.

Now knowing that there are two receivers receiving signals on two separate transmitted frequencies, these two receivers do not self-destruct when the antennas are touched together. I could place the handset and base station in an enclosure with the handset antenna strapped to the base station antenna, and I would have two receivers picking up the same signal as sent from two transmitters in "the same box". If it was true that the receivers could not tolerate being in the same box as the transmitters, then both the base station receiver and the handset receiver would be destroyed by touching the antennas together. However, this is not the case.

I tried a second experiment to see if this is also true for a non-duplex transmitter and receiver. I took the antenna from a wireless microphone that transmits on the AM broadcast band using a 9v battery (similar to the power used in Esteban's transmitters), and I touched this transmitter antenna to the ferrite coil on a battery powered AM radio that was tuned to receive signals from the wireless microphone. The AM radio was not damaged. Then I touched the antenna to the 4.5 inch coil receiving antenna at the back of an AM receiver powered by the mains. It did not destroy this this receiver either. Thus I made a demonstration that an AM band loop receiver is not destroyed by touching a low power transmitter coil tuned to the same frequency when no duplex electronics are involved.

Originally Posted by Roberts

You are talking about small ferrite rod antennas for AM 500-1600kHz...
Ha,ha,ha,ha!!!! Have you ever heard of "electonic lenght"? Have you ever heard that term? Seriouslly i have doubts!
Well, that small ferrite rod antena has "electronic" lenght od W/4 or W/2 and in few rare cases even W - full lenght. But usually selectivity in that case is not that great. That was the price had to be payed making small portable, handy, COMERCIAL AM recivers..
So...i will repeat words i told in last post to Esteban. People i am really tired and exhausted from every day job to come here and teach you basics and fundamentals.It is not that i dont have good will...i am just to tired.
Please read some basics about radio before come here and talk nonsences.

Yes, I have heard of electronic length. And I am familiar with wavelengths and basic antenna theory. But I am not a radio engineer, and I expect that a radio engineer would know better than to say it is necessary to use long lengths of wire when there are working receivers using short loops. I think a radio engineer would know that it is possible to touch a receiving loop antenna to a low power transmitting antenna without destroying the receiver. I think a radio engineer would know better than to try to confuse the presence of a duplex arrangement in cordless phones to imply that the handset is not receiving the same frequency that is transmitted by the base unit when the antennas are touched together.

The fact about small loop antennas, whether they have a ferrite core or air core is they receive the signals they are tuned to without requiring the lengths of wire you specified. The theory of why they work is not the issue. The issue is that a radio engineer is telling us that everything Esteban does is impossible, including small loop antennas and putting the receiver in the same box as the transmitter. Is this really impossible? We see small air core loop or ferrite loop antennas used routinely in commercial applications. We also see that holding an AM wireless microphone antenna against an AM receiver antenna did not cause any damage to two receivers tested. If I can touch a low power transmitter antenna against a receiver coil tuned to the same frequency with no damage, then why can't Esteban?

It appears your motive is not to help to understand how to build a better version of Esteban's apparatus, but to use technical theory details to prove his machines cannot work. The problem is you have made technical statements that are not always true, and have been demonstrated to be workable outside the limitations you say are necessary.

I don't know if Esteban's machines work or not. But when I hear both Morgan and Esteban reporting that they found long-time buried metal objects at a farther distance than a metal detector can find them, then I think it is a good idea to build a similar apparatus to see if I can also observe the same thing that they reported. The theories of radio and magnetic fields do not describe any way this could work, but I don't see why there is any problem in taking a look to see if we can verify their reports.

Best wishes,
J_P

[hillman]

hi to all
hi Esteban :a small silver treasure at 70 m and 80cm depth is great job in my country ther is a lot of silver coins that value more than 1000 $ for each so if I can get a silver LRL I will buy it and if you want to share it I dont mind

[roberts]

Like i said; i need to be super human to explain all to you here concerning radio and everything you stated about radio here. Even if i was super human (which i am not of course) i will not waste my time here any more, i do have much smarter things to do in my life. I can see that you already made your decisions, so go on! Who's stoping you? Make radio md and locate coins at 40 meters. Go on!
J Player you said you checked all my points and turned i was wrong all the time? How nice? You won! Bravo! But only in your dreams....
Totally trivial "tests" you made (if real) with your am radio,cordless phone , antena shaft et.etc....means zero! Nothing.
Like Esteban, you also do not know what are you doing and what are you saying. You are totally not awared of things you been talked about here.
So be it.
I dont want to teach you here for nothing. From now on, if you want to learn something you must pay. Knowledge is most expensive thing on this world. You will realize that sooner or later.
I will never appear here again posting on this subject, simply cose i do not have with whom to talk here.
Wish you succes in locating coin at 40 meters!

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Roberts

J Player you said you checked all my points and turned i was wrong all the time?

No, that is not what I said. I said you were wrong when you said a transmitter cannot exist in the same box as a receiver without destroying the receiver. And I said it is not necessary to use the lengths of wire you specified to receive a signal under 500 khz. It can be accomplished with small loops.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

J_Player


Of course, you can receive 500 Khz with a small ferrite RF trafo!!! If not, Roberts isn't the supossed radio-designer!!!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Esteban

J_Player
Of course, you can receive 500 Khz with a small ferrite RF trafo!!! If not, Roberts isn't the supossed radio-designer!!!

Esteban,

Could you tell how wet soil make influence on detection? Here it´s raining all the time, do you think PD can be used?

Regards,
Fred.

[Esteban]

Fred,

I note that very light rain improve the detection, this is, very tenuous drizzle. The drops when falls generate a voltage and I think is a bridge between the detector and target.

Wet terrain and rain all the time are very bad! Occurs that also the air is very wet. I believe a combination with infrared will be a solution. No experience in sites with rains all the time.