Franco's LRL ver_4046

[enjoykin4]

Originally Posted by Geo

At my lrl at pin9 there is signal 11.6v p-p. Between pin9 and c3 i connected a trimer 10k and adjusted it so at c3 to have 900mv p-p. Now it seems works very good but i have a mysterious problem. If pcb is out of shielding box then when i touch the antenna the led turns on. If pcb is inside the shielding box then if i touch the antenna and the led is on, it turns off. With other words it works reverse!!!.
Who is the right???

Regards

Hi Geo

Good news from you!. Tell me more how your lrl work and show us your oscillograf snapshots (envelopes) in different test points.

My the question: at which side of C3 you have connected a trimer 10k - side to base of T1 or side to Pin (3 and 4 ) ?

900 mVpp - is probably too high amplitude for "scalar" mixer Tr2-L1-C11-C10. Big VCO amplitde can fully suppress "Gold Scalar signals" - (oversaturate gold and silver signals).

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[enjoykin4]

Hi Signore Franco

I think i have a probelms with this Nicolas PLL4046 pcb. It is WORST DESIGNED PCB i hav seen in my life. I have not checked this pcb before i made it so now i have a problems adjusting PLL4046 lrl.



What do you think about variabile attenuator at VCO output (pin4) and comparator input (pin3) for very tiny trimming output levels ??

I have plans to insert additional capaitor C8' (1pf) - between C8 (1pf) and C9 (1pf) to lower equivalent serail capacitance bellow 1pf.

And for the end to improve output signals from phase amplifier LM 358 (IC2A) and avoid capacitive loads (parasitic and input capacitances ) of VU metar input (I have connected at output of phase amplifier) and input capacitances of IC2B (signal comparator and piezo driver) - to make phase amplifier (IC2A) work in safe stable area (avoid self oscillations) - i hava plan to add small resistor 100-150 oms at output of IC2A (need to be calculated).

Also shielding PLL CD4046 in faraday cage will great help avoid spurious interference and improve noise suppression and self oscillations of amplifier stage Tr2-Tr3-Tr4 - like is in Geo case.


ps: My main goal for me is making fully working PLL4046 LRL - working stable and detect signals without falses like is in your case (you ctach silver coins at 3 m distance and 0,25m depth with this version of LRL).

After these conditions i can try design small scalar antennas (as you know - the antenna is a best amplifier) and improve input and mixer stages. Also i alrady have some ideas about "scalar discrimination" of particular golden ad silver targets (as a most interesting for me).

Think about the differential configuration of input stage and fully balanced "scalar mixer stage".

It is all for now. Will be very interesting and helpfull to many people if there are oscillograf snapshots of full adjusted and working PLL4046 LRL.

In any case thanks for your informative replies and advices.

Many regards from Russia.
With respect Enjoykin4.

[Geo]

Originally Posted by enjoykin4

Hi Geo

Good news from you!. Tell me more how your lrl work and show us your oscillograf snapshots (envelopes) in different test points.

My the question: at which side of C3 you have connected a trimer 10k - side to base of T1 or side to Pin (3 and 4 ) ?

900 mVpp - is probably too high amplitude for "scalar" mixer Tr2-L1-C11-C10. Big VCO amplitde can fully suppress "Gold Scalar signals" - (oversaturate gold and silver signals).

Reg.
Enjoykin4

Hi Enjoy.
About trimmer it is connecting at side of 4046 (pin 3@4).
About oscillographs... there are some problems with the quality of them because here are many scattered signals from 4046 and oscillographs are not clear at every point.
I will try to take phot of oscillographs at Pin2, Pin3 and pin14 of 4046. Signal at base of TR2 is not clear and it's very low so can't see it clear.


Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
Watch the post # 47 of this thread, you've tried to make this change?
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hi Signore Franco

I wil try changes from your post # 47 !!

Signore GEO - thanks for your advices and ideas.

Still snowing in Greece ??

Best regards both
Enjoykin4

[enjoykin4]

Hi abdou2014


My advice to you is - not make bad Nicolas PCB but fully working GEO PLL4046 LRL PCB.
The best veaiant of PCB is when you have one side at ground and other side use "guard rings" for most sensitive tracks for example inputs of operational amplifiers, VCO outputs, clock and data ports lines etc. But keep in mind earthing must be done in one point with high conducting conductor.

Also earth yourself while searching - using long metalic handle also grounded via you to earth.

For PLL4046 LRL modifications follow Signore Franco posts. He has made 10 LRL's till now - and i don't like to make modifications of other people designs. My principle is to make my own. Most important is to build one working version, catch "Scalar gold phenomenon" and make much more experiments on a real field.

I wish you luck !!

Reg.
Enjoykin4

[Bill512]

Originally Posted by Geo

Bill, did you check it??

not yet George, but I think this antenna (80 turns) is more sensitive than the 35 turns antenna.
The reference for sensitivity, is the whip (stylus) antenna , but this does not mean that the "stylus" is always the choice.
Besides sensitivity, there are some other properties ,(varying among antenna types), which are sometimes more favorable.

[FrancoItaly]

The advantage of the stylus antenna is that by stretching increases the sensitivity, with a length of 30cm sensitivity it is comparable with the coil antenna.

[Geo]

I attach some oscillographs from my lrl.
1. at pin3.4
2. after the trimmer and before the C3
3. at pin2 (4046)
4.collector of Tr4.

[Geo]

Look the waveorm No3. I don't understand why is so....
This is one of the reasons that i prefer rhe Xtal version.
When will finish with field tests will open a new thread with xtal version because it works fine and the waveforms are perfect (except the display stages).

[Geo]

Originally Posted by Bill512

not yet George, but I think this antenna (80 turns) is more sensitive than the 35 turns antenna.
The reference for sensitivity, is the whip (stylus) antenna , but this does not mean that the "stylus" is always the choice.
Besides sensitivity, there are some other properties ,(varying among antenna types), which are sometimes more favorable.

ok Billy, inform me!!!

[enjoykin4]

Mr. Geo thank you for your OWON oscillograms !!

I was currently doing modifications according to Signore Franco post #47.

Have eliminated C3, TR1 (BC170A) and P2(precision trimmer 1K 25turns) and have connected pin 4 (VCO out) and 3 directly to C8 (1pF) - but the first results are zero - not get correct operation of LRL when i have touch the antenna. Currently working is at this way - when i touch the antenna: If the LED is on stay on - if LED is off stay off.

I suspect on big ammount of VCO signal going through C8 (1pf) and C9 (1pf) to mixer stage.

I will do some experiments and draw oscillograms from my PLL4046 LRL

Thanks for cooperation.
Regards Enjoykin4

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,
To the collector of TR 4 there is a distorted waveform, the signal at the base of TR2 is too large, or there is too much amplification.
Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Thank you Signore Franco !!

What is a best way in your oppinion to precise regulate VCO output voltage from max to 0 - which going directly from pin (3,4 CD4046) to coupling capacitor C8(1pf)-C9(1pf) in my case its U= 6.4Vpp , F= 1.8MHz.

Keep experimenting further !!

Best Regards
Enjoykin4

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
You have to control the amplitude of the signal at the collector of TR4, it must be undistorted, if so add in series to a capacitor C8 of 1pF or less, or remove C8 and C9 and weld a piece of wire on the basis of TR2 (about 10cm) , it acts as an antenna, so try the position where there is a good signal on the collector of TR4.

Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Thank you Signore Franco !!

I will try tonight - but the adjusting feedback with a piece of wire is extremely hard and complicated. For full scale signal 0-6Vdc output at collector T4 (pointX) I need to find correct value for capacitance in femtofarads.

in any case thank you for your advices and good wishes.

Tell me does all oscillograms which Geo has posted are correct except distorted waveform at collector Tr4 (last snapshot) ?

with respect
Enjoykin4

[Geo]

Another problem is that 4046 emmits a very strong signal that it is very difficault to isolate it from input of Tr2.

Franco, thanks

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4 and Geo,
Other oscillograms are correct. I have build 2 4046 lrls with no problems, but I must admit that it is critical amplification of 3 stages (TR2-TR3-TR4). If is too much we may have auto-oscillations, if it's too little gain the lrl doesn't work. The quartz lrl is better to build because the signal from oscillator is few volts and it's a sine curve, a square wave has a lot of armonics. You can try to shielding the 4046 and to use a passive low pass filter at pin3-4, type resistance/capacitance.

Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hi signore FrancoItaly and Geo

New Sunny day - New PCB layout for FRANCO-PLL4046-LRL.


Geo PCB layout redesigned by Enjoykin4. (Something from UHF design -massive ground coupling with guard rings enclosed every soldering point.





PS:Signore Franco and Geo

Any info about distances of possible detected golden and silver targets with yours PLL4046 LRLs on real fields ??
From 0 meters up to xxxx meters ?

Best Regards
Enjoykin4

[FrancoItaly]

Hi enjoykin4,
Very good work for your pcb, regarding the distances on real field I can not say more than what I said at the beginning of the thread, the performance of quartz and 4046 lrl are similar, in my test field 5 silver coin (if I remenber well) at about 2.5m. Unfortunately, it is more than a year since I've been in a real field.

Best Regards

[enjoykin4]

Hi FrancoItaly !!

Signore Franco if you have some spare time why don't you start new thread - new project - Differential frontend LRL by FrancoItaly - try boost distances and sensitivity on a real field ? We can talk about many different concepts and designs !! My idea is simple - use differential input configuaration with two antennas in antiphase (180 degree shift ) or use quadrature concept - four antennas (plates) in quadrature phase (90 degree shift) - every with own sinus oscillator adjusted separately and two independent LF modulators with variabile attenuators at outputs.

What do you think about som kind of "GOLD signal" envelope modulation with LF oscillator ?? Similar concept like in many Mineoro designs ?

Maybe we need find some particular harmonics of Gold irradiation process by planetary Scalar emmision ??

Best Regards
Enjoykin4

[Geo]

Hi.
I just returned from Italy and hope soon to make a real test to PLL version and to Xtal version.
After it will give more attention to xtal version because it works better, has clear oscillographs and no oscillations.

Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,
It is very easy to add the TR5 stage (quartz version) to 4046 lrl, in this way it is possible to compare phase and amplitude changes, I did this to try to get some sort of discrimination, but it was not possible to prove it on the field with different types of metals. It is also useful to be able to measure the DC signal for the tuning of the LRL.
Regards

[Treasureshunter]

Hi my friend
Sorry .i don,t speak english. Very nice
You build wich pcb?
Please give here pictures for your kits
I need pcb and place mr franco lrl
Ver 4046
Tanck,s

[Treasureshunter]

Mr reza vir com on here???!!!....
He,s from iran .and me too
Mr reza can help me?