Mineoro FG79-Happy new Year

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by FrancoItaly

Hi J_Player

I don't know the AT89C2051 , I know very well the PIC 16F... series. Some PICs have 2 comparators and an internal programmable reference voltage, if it's the same for
the AT89C2051 it's possible that the processor controls if the voltage is out of a window voltage. Of course 2 externals comparator do the same job.

Best Regards

Hi FrancoItaly,
The AT89C2051 also has two internal comparators, one at each of the analogue inputs. The comparator uses bit 6 of port 3 (P3.6) for the comparator output result.
Because of this, P3.6 is not available for general purpose I/O.
Hmmmm.... I don't see port 3 connected to anything in the Mineoro circuit. There must be some coding in the AT89C2051 which extracts the gold signal.

Maybe one input is for fresh gold, and the other is for long-time buried gold.
Or maybe the AT89C2051 has a random number generator coded to make random beeps when it senses there is no signal is coming from the loop or ion chamber?

Best wishes,
J_P

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J_Player

Yes it's possible in the assembly code to control for example every 50 mS if the output of the comparators change, remember the 10 hZ frequency generated from the microprocessor...My doubts are the lack of a TR stage and a TR coil, infact in all my instruments I use an oscillator that drives a coil principally to have a stable signal in the RX stage. In the case of Mineoro perhaps the 10 Hz signal is used as "chopper" circuit.

Best regards

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Fred

Looking at the schematic it is even more obvious now that the "ionic chamber" is only here to make people think there is something special to this device...
(Making us think it works like a particle detector, with only 27v and directly connected to the base of the transistor is nonsense )...

Hi Fred,
In Geo's most recent schematic, the ion chamber 27v is coupled to Q1 by a capacitor. No direct connection.
You see it also sent to TR2 at the output of Q1, which Geo marked as "20 MHz". See Geo's recent schematic redrawn for easier reading below.

Originally Posted by FrancoItaly

Hi J_Player

Yes it's possible in the assembly code to control for example every 50 mS if the output of the comparators change, remember the 10 hZ frequency generated from the microprocessor...My doubts are the lack of a TR stage and a TR coil, infact in all my instruments I use an oscillator that drives a coil principally to have a stable signal in the RX stage. In the case of Mineoro perhaps the 10 Hz signal is used as "chopper" circuit.

Best regards

You are correct. There are many ways to code the processor. It could be coded for simple comparator against a reference, or maybe coded for complex signal conditioning and extraction.
One theme that comes to mind is to examine a particular segment of each cycle of a repeating wave form.
Using a processor, the coding could look at various frequencies within a range and find the part of the wave form to examine.
Or maybe it would be easier to cause the beeper to make random beeps when neither input has risen above a voltage threshold after a time interval passed.

If the 10 Hz was intended as a chopper, then it is chopping from 27v to 22v differential. Not quite the same as 0 - 5v.
Following the circuit, we see one end of the ion chamber is connected to 27v, and is also coupled to the receiver loop input via capacitor.
According to Mineoro theory, sparks with a certain "gold DNA" will become part of the signal at Q1.
If these sparks don't arrive from passionate gold ions, then maybe some noise from the 10 Hz signal switching will arrive at Q1?
Is the 10 Hz intended to be the stable signal in the Mineoro concept?
Does noise from the 10 Hz switching make some odd signal in the coils?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Fred

Looking at the schematic it is even more obvious now that the "ionic chamber" is only here to make people think there is something special to this device...
(Making us think it works like a particle detector, with only 27v and directly connected to the base of the transistor is nonsense )

The only real electronics in there is the VLF/everything receiver that will pick up some radio signal (depending of your location, time of the day etc), and will look like "signal lines"... If you are really lucky you may even find that metallic objects may have some effect on this radio signals.

But that will never be a RELIABLE method to detect buried metal.
Also, the way the thing is build it will pick up all kinds of noise and will beep randomly, then selective memory and some target (ie P.M.) advertising will do the rest.

At this price it is worth the trouble.

All the MINEORO are very quiet if not work in limit of sensitivity. Unfortunatly they are extremly quiet,you know wath i mean...

[Geo]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Fred,
In Geo's most recent schematic, the ion chamber 27v is coupled to Q1 by a capacitor. No direct connection.
You see it also sent to TR2 at the output of Q1, which Geo marked as "20 MHz". See Geo's recent schematic redrawn for easier reading below.

You are correct. There are many ways to code the processor. It could be coded for simple comparator against a reference, or maybe coded for complex signal conditioning and extraction.
One theme that comes to mind is to examine a particular segment of each cycle of a repeating wave form.
Using a processor, the coding could look at various frequencies within a range and find the part of the wave form to examine.
Or maybe it would be easier to cause the beeper to make random beeps when neither input has risen above a voltage threshold after a time interval passed.

If the 10 Hz was intended as a chopper, then it is chopping from 27v to 22v differential. Not quite the same as 0 - 5v.
Following the circuit, we see one end of the ion chamber is connected to 27v, and is also coupled to the receiver loop input via capacitor.
According to Mineoro theory, sparks with a certain "gold DNA" will become part of the signal at Q1.
If these sparks don't arrive from passionate gold ions, then maybe some noise from the 10 Hz signal switching will arrive at Q1?
Is the 10 Hz intended to be the stable signal in the Mineoro concept?
Does noise from the 10 Hz switching make some odd signal in the coils?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_P.
I marked the inductance as 20mH, not the frequency as 20MHZ...

Regards

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Geo

Hi J_P.
I marked the inductance as 20mH, not the frequency as 20MHZ...

Regards

Yes, my mistake.

So have you discovered the reason for the 10 Hz signal sent to the ion chamber?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by hung

After 6 years, I see the true loop is the flow of information here...

Well Dr Hung, aren't you a slow learner.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

You shouldn't.
Wrong answer.
Not high tech. Actually low tech and very simple. Yet effective and millions were sold.

Aren't you one of the 'eyeballers' here who can spot a circuit schematics and tell their 'lifestory'?

Try again. What is this?

When you see this smilie -> ... it means "sarcasm".
Of course it's low tech. I was being SARCASTIC.

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Yes, my mistake.

So have you discovered the reason for the 10 Hz signal sent to the ion chamber?

Best wishes,
J_P

It was told here some years ago (mineorogreece member) ,the 10 Hz pulse sent to gold leaf inside the ionic chamber, charge the gold leaf with electrons,this is the way mineoro claims to work.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Morgan

It was told here some years ago (mineorogreece member) ,the 10 Hz pulse sent to gold leaf inside the ionic chamber, charge the gold leaf with electrons,this is the way mineoro claims to work.

Hi Morgan,
If the purpose of the 5v pulses is to charge the gold leaf, then why do they make pulses? Why not simply connect to 5v. supply for constant charge to the gold leaf?

Now let's think this through... You can charge the gold leaf to +5v of the Atmel processor. But the brass rod is charged to +27v. This means the gold leaf is 22v more negative than the brass rod where the spark is supposed to jump to. What is happening to the gold leaf during these pulses? The gold leaf is being connected to ground (0v.), then to +5v ten times every second, while the brass rod remains at +27v. There is no time the gold leaf becomes more positive voltage than the brass rod. So we see the brass rod is charged most positive, and it is made from copper and zinc, maybe other metals, but not from gold.

Maybe the Mineoro theory is not correct. Maybe sparks are not jumping across the ion chamber. Maybe there are no gold ions entering the ion chamber.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Wow, this is going fast.
Let me answer:

Originally Posted by hung

You are dign of pity.
(...)
You cannot imagine how rewarding it is to help another soul to reach the light.

Hung, i am surprised how you strongly react to what you call such a poor post.Anyway :

Originally Posted by hung

You cannot imagine how rewarding it is to help another soul to reach the light.

So you feel rewarded ? Can you imagine how rewarding it is ?? ....

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Fred - it appears that Hung is asking you to read the information in the link, and then let him know what it means.
Sad really ...
Hung - may your delusions continue during 2011 and beyond. At least it gives us all some cause for amusement.

Yes, that´s OK, if he needs some support, here we are...But i also hope his delusions will continue, as abruptly understanding the truth could be disastrous for him.

Originally Posted by hung

(...)What is this?
Let's hear the ' geoskepthic engineers' speak.

This looks like a $10.000 device to me

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Fred,
In Geo's most recent schematic, the ion chamber 27v is coupled to Q1 by a capacitor. No direct connection.

Yes, you are right but this is what i call "direct", i mean no amplification or isolation.I don´t think to input a (27v?) spike directly to he base of the transistor will be very good, not speaking of the signal return into the coil circuit.

Originally Posted by Morgan

All the MINEORO are very quiet if not work in limit of sensitivity. Unfortunatly they are extremly quiet,you know wath i mean...

Yes, thank you morgan, as a user of mineoro stuff your opinion is very valuable and valued here.

[hung]

Originally Posted by hung

What is this?
Let's hear the ' geoskepthic engineers' speak.

Several hours have passed and the eyeballers could not even tell what this circuit does, much less what device this is.
I will help then.

The purpose of this was to demonstrate how speculation about something can be thrown by people at anytime in hopes that it 'might stick' when the true explanation is unknown to them.

This is a very simple circuit, nevertheless the electronic engineers here did not risk any takes as to prevent them to comit a mistake because they simply do not know about it.

So, regarding the CDM210, by simply stating their lack of data for deeper analysis about the schematics wouldn't be a much better, safer, prudent and honest attitude, instead of speculating in a pejorative way?
How can someone rush to create wild conclusions and wrong judgements about a device when not even the schematics is well understood by them?

Well, I hope this example be remembered.
Even with a simple schematic provided, some people here with knowledge in electronics were not able to identify a famous distortion stomp box used by guitar players in the 70's or tell what the circuit was supposed to do.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

How can someone rush to create wild conclusions and wrong judgements about a device when not even the schematics is well understood by them?

Good question ... and one I've asked you many times in the past. It never ceases to amaze me how easily you can believe the most utter tripe without a shred of evidence.

So you eventually noticed that no-one here wanted to play your silly game. And how nobody ever jumps to your defense. That's something to think about.

Maybe it would be better for you to return to TNET, where your "efforts" have [only] slightly more impact than they do here.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Fred

...Yes, you are right but this is what i call "direct", i mean no amplification or isolation.I don´t think to input a (27v?) spike directly to he base of the transistor will be very good, not speaking of the signal return into the coil circuit...

Exactly.

Nobody would connect 27v to the base of the transistor. But there is a capacitor of unknown value to allow spikes to pass to the base of Q1. Remembering that Q1 is the first stage of amplification of the big loop, the question then becomes... what kind of spike could come from the rod at the end of the ion chamber to combine with the loop signal?

When we look at the ion chamber, it appears to have a ground and a gold leaf that is connected to a 5v square wave at 10 Hz. The brass rod connected to Q1 is separated from the gold leaf conductor by about 1/2 cm.
Does the 5v square wave pass to Q1 via C20? Is there some inductive or capacitive coupling between the gold leaf and the brass rod? Maybe EMI from the edges of the square wave?
What about the noise from the square wave switching in the Atmel processor located inside the big loop?
I remember picking up calculator clocking from a smaller loop at 5 cm distance from the calculator.
In fact I didn't need a loop. Any conductor the size of your thumb will work to pick up the pulses so I could display them on an oscilloscope.
I would imagine there is some artifact from the 10 Hz signal entering into the first stage simply because of the size of the big loop, and because this is the first stage of amplification before filters could lose the 10 Hz noise.
The biggest problem that stops us from picking up the 10 Hz is that it is such a tiny signal with no measurable power being consumed, and there are likely many sources of noise in the air much stronger than the 10 Hz noise.
The base of the transistor is also low impedance. But I am guessing you would see the 10 Hz clocking mixed with whatever other signals you find if you connected your oscilloscope to the base of Q1.

This is not to say the 10 Hz is a gold signal or gold frequency, only to say that it is not impossible that this 10 Hz could be transferred to the signal at Q1.
It still seems strange to send the two signals to a single transistor. When we look at it, we see these are two different kinds of noise signals being combined... broadband VLF and circuit noise... combined to be amplified.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

Hi J_P.
The unknown capacitor C20 has capacity 10nF. So the two signals are mixed to Q1 via two 10nF capacitors

Regards

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J_Player

We can consider the brass rod and the gold leaf as a capacitor and so the 10 Hz signal it is overlapped on the 27V. The "gold signal" it can exceed in amplitude the threshold and it may be revealed. The other signals are under the threshold of 27V and they are revealed only if they are big or very near...

Best regards

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Geo

Hi J_P.
The unknown capacitor C20 has capacity 10nF. So the two signals are mixed to Q1 via two 10nF capacitors
Regards

Everything in this circuit reminds me so much of the PD

[hung]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Good question ... and one I've asked you many times in the past.

You will still do it many times in the future.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Fred

Everything in this circuit reminds me so much of the PD

I agree. Specially the skepthics circuit analysis.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

You will still do it many times in the future.

As long as you continue to rush into wild [and totally incorrect) conclusions without even a shred of evidence, and to promote pseudo-science, then "yes" you can expect me to ask the same question again in the future ... and [as always] you will sidestep the answer.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

As long as you continue to rush into wild [and totally incorrect) conclusions without even a shred of evidence, and to promote pseudo-science, then "yes" you can expect me to ask the same question again in the future ... and [as always] you will sidestep the answer.

A new year, but very little changes in the world of Hung and his pseudoscience. Still the same old crap.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Theseus

A new year, but very little changes in the world of Hung and his pseudoscience. Still the same old crap.

I did not know that mental handicapeds could notice changes in dates. How could you do it?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by hung

I did not know that mental handicapeds could notice changes in dates. How could you do it?

I am sure Thesus will take some of his time to explain you how it works, then with some work you will be able to progress too and move from your middle age beliefs.

[Geo]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Exactly.

Nobody would connect 27v to the base of the transistor. But there is a capacitor of unknown value to allow spikes to pass to the base of Q1. Remembering that Q1 is the first stage of amplification of the big loop, the question then becomes... what kind of spike could come from the rod at the end of the ion chamber to combine with the loop signal?

When we look at the ion chamber, it appears to have a ground and a gold leaf that is connected to a 5v square wave at 10 Hz. The brass rod connected to Q1 is separated from the gold leaf conductor by about 1/2 cm.
Does the 5v square wave pass to Q1 via C20? Is there some inductive or capacitive coupling between the gold leaf and the brass rod? Maybe EMI from the edges of the square wave?
What about the noise from the square wave switching in the Atmel processor located inside the big loop?
I remember picking up calculator clocking from a smaller loop at 5 cm distance from the calculator.
In fact I didn't need a loop. Any conductor the size of your thumb will work to pick up the pulses so I could display them on an oscilloscope.
I would imagine there is some artifact from the 10 Hz signal entering into the first stage simply because of the size of the big loop, and because this is the first stage of amplification before filters could lose the 10 Hz noise.
The biggest problem that stops us from picking up the 10 Hz is that it is such a tiny signal with no measurable power being consumed, and there are likely many sources of noise in the air much stronger than the 10 Hz noise.
The base of the transistor is also low impedance. But I am guessing you would see the 10 Hz clocking mixed with whatever other signals you find if you connected your oscilloscope to the base of Q1.

This is not to say the 10 Hz is a gold signal or gold frequency, only to say that it is not impossible that this 10 Hz could be transferred to the signal at Q1.
It still seems strange to send the two signals to a single transistor. When we look at it, we see these are two different kinds of noise signals being combined... broadband VLF and circuit noise... combined to be amplified.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_P.
Between the electrodes of black and red wires of the champer there is a small capacity (few pico). Maybe to use the square pulses via the electrode capacitance and the input capacitors to stimulate the loop

Regards

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Geo

Hi J_P.
Between the electrodes of black and red wires of the champer there is a small capacity (few pico). Maybe to use the square pulses via the electrode capacitance and the input capacitors to stimulate the loop

Regards

Yes, maybe a few pf is enough to send the 10 Hz to the input of Q1. As long as the noise in the air is not too strong to make the 10 Hz seem invisible.
Now we finally see the design ideas of Mineoro. Fred was correct. The design seems a lot like the pistol detector.
When we look at the design, we see the same design concept we found in the pistol detector, and using the same kind of details including a beep circuit.
This was definitely started as an Alonso design.

But what happened?
Did Damasio think the passive receiver was not good enough to find gold without adding the ion chamber?
I am now wondering... When Alonso came to the Mineoro factory and showed his PD working, did Damasio decide it is too simple... only a passive receiver?
Did Damasio decide it must have some strange ion chamber that nobody can understand added so people will believe it is very advanced?

According to Mineoro theory, the ion chamber is where passionate love ions crash to leave evidence of their love and make spikes of femto and atto seconds that are detected in their "sensitive electronics".
And we see the sensitive Mineoro electronics is Q1 = BC548...

Wait a minute... BC548 is a cheap general purpose transistor. How can it detect femto or atto second pulses?
I think somebody was telling false stories
Maybe it is ok to tell false stories.
Car dealers sometimes tell false stories about the cars they sell...
How can you sell plastic sprinkler pipe and tiny gold leaf things for more than 5000 euros if not telling false stories?
As long as I am not the buyer who expects to find treasure... no problem for me to read false stories about cheap transistors finding femto and atto second pulses that are encoded with gold DNA.

Was this design change intended to conceal the passive VLF receiver, and confuse people into thinking gold signals are blended into the VLF loop signal?
Was the ion chamber circuit added to make it appear the Mineoro design is so advanced that no EE can figure out what it is supposed to do?
Did Damasio add the ion chamber to the circuit to try to fool people into thinking the Mineoro locator is too advanced for anyone to understand... and it worked on the "love ion crashing" principle?

It would seem ok to me if Alonso added silly circuits as long as the main circuit still works and finds treasure.
But from what we see, the performance of the Alonso VLF receiver was destroyed after adding the ion chamber circuit.
The performance was changed from 2 meters to no meters unless you are really lucky.

We have heard from Morgan that the PD works for 2 meter detection, but the Mineoro locators do not work at all unless you are searching at a very lucky time.
Geo also confirmed it was the lucky day when the Mineoro can work. Geo does not waste his time to try to build a Mineoro design locator.
It appears that adding the "ion chamber" had the effect of deteriorating the 2 meter detection range of the Alonso VLF receiver design.

How can people believe the ion chamber is sensing positive and negative love ions destroying themselves when the locator does not work in the field?
Maybe this is the reason why Mineoro removed the "Romeo and Juliet love ion" theory from their page.
Was this locator designed to only work near the Mineoro factory testing grounds, and for friends of the people who work at the Mineoro factory... but not work for anyone else?

Only a few people have built the Alonso PD without any ion chamber, and found the 2 meter detection. We do not see people wasting their time to build the Mineoro version with ion chamber.
In fact, most people do not spend the time to build the Alonso passive receiver. Most of the electronic LRL experimenters are using oscillators to send VLF/ELF signals in their search fields.

Thank you for the schematic, Geo.
Do you think anyone will use it to make a treasure locator?

Best wishes,
J_P