|
|
#501
04-29-2011, 07:05 PM
|
||||
|
||||
phenomenon
Quote:
|
|
#502
04-29-2011, 07:13 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Zahori field test
Quote:
Regards
|
|
#503
04-29-2011, 07:44 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
A buried treasure does not emit an electromagnetic field of any strength. The buried treasure corrodes in the ground, and ions from the metal surface enter into the soil. The chemical action between the soil and the metal causes a voltage and can increase the conductivity of the ground. The voltage is not high electrostatic. it is usually less than 1 volt, but is always less than 2 volts. The chemistry will not allow the ions to produce a higher voltage from natural corrosion. There is no high energy coming from the treasure. The only source of high strength electromagnetic or electrostatic field is from the atmosphere and the telluric currents which are produced as a result. The way you find treasure is speculated to be caused by the change in ground conductivity in the area where a treasure is corroding. The flow of electrons from the earth to the sky is very small, but the electric field that pushes these electrons is very large. It is speculated that a small difference in ground conductivity caused by a buried treasure will cause large differences in the electric field in the air above it. This does not mean there are treasure ions in the air above the treasure. We know this is not possible. But it is very possible that the electric field gradient will be less in this air above the more conductive ground. And this is the kind of anomaly you are looking for. So you see you make a mistake if you think the treasure is emitting electromagnetic and ionic fields. These are false theories that people made up to try to explain why they find signals in the air. The only real electrostatic in the air comes from the atmospheric charge. And the only detectable anomaly near a treasure is an anomaly which could disturb the atmospheric charge gradient. Look for a place where the air is not 200 volts charge at the height that you hold your Zahori. You should see lower voltage where the treasure is buried. Good luck with your Zahori  Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#504
04-29-2011, 10:18 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
LRL experiments
Quote:
The mini Zahori is only experiments,of course i have the PD,but i want to see also some results with Zahori. Thanks for the explanations,i imagine the air voltage is higer over buried treasures... Regards
|
|
#505
04-30-2011, 02:34 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Hi J_Player Yes, for most metals this voltage under 2 volt . For example ,underground gas pips protection system used this method. Are you sure long range base on this subject ? I remember minoro animation Best regards.
|
|
#506
04-30-2011, 02:56 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Interesting. I think one needs to look at this effect from two different points of view. A "passive" instrument, like a Zahori; and an "active" system that uses rods driven into the ground and pass an electric current into the ground. In your explanation above, I personally can't see how a large electric field gradient is maintained over the buried treasure.
__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
|
|
#507
04-30-2011, 03:06 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Yes I am sure. As an engineer you know it is impossible for buried metal to build strong electrostatic field which can be measured. Any large electrical potential from buried metal is quickly shorted and dissipated in the ground. The most voltage a buried metal can develop is not a high static field. It is usually less than 2 volts, caused by the chemical reaction of corrosion. It is the same as if you buried a battery in the ground. This battery would show maybe 1.5 volts for awhile, but you could not measure this 1.5 volts as a strong electrostatic field from any distance. The electrostatic field you can build in your body is quickly discharged and dissipated the moment you youch your body to the ground. It is the same for buried metal. Buried metal does not accumulate any large static charge. But if it did, then the ground in contact would dissipate it so it no longer exists. The Mineoro propaganda has been shown to be false by scientists and technicians who measured the content of the air in different conditions. They found that gold ions do not exist in the air. Any ionized gold will quickly combine to make a gold particle. All of the gold floating in the air has been found to be solid gold particles, not ions. Chemists have seen that Mineoro propaganda is correct for gold ions moving up through the ground above treasure. But they saw that all these ions are neutralized in the last 10-30 cm before they reach the surface. This is where the gold ions combine to become tiny gold particles where they can attach to other gold particles and form micro gold dust. This dust can wash into the oceans or blow into the wind to become an extremely small concentration of gold particles. Gold recovery companies determined that it is much too expensive to build equipment to recover the gold from the oceans or from the air. They continue to look for larger concentrations that are found in deposits under the ground. The entire Mineoro theory of gold ions floating in the air has been demonstrated to be wrong. You can also prove this is wrong for yourself by taking a drift tube ion detector near where you know there is buried gold. You will see the drift tube does not find any gold ions anywhere in the air near the buried gold or away from it. The gold cannot cause any static electric field more than 1-2 volts depending on what other elements are near the corroding gold in the ground. This voltage is not easy to measure from the surface unless you are using probes like are used for ground resistivity. If you measure some voltage with this kind of probe, you may be measuring the gold chemical reacition voltage. But this is not likely because the gold ions are in very small concentration (around 3 parts per trillion), so any voltage is quickly lost in the when begin to collect some its current to measure it. But there are other metal ions in larger amounts which are easier to measure like copper, zinc, lead, iron, and others. These will be much more plentiful and are more likely to show some measureable voltage. And even then you cannot be sure you are measuring voltage caused by chemical corrosion. There are even stronger voltages caused by the telluric currents moving under the ground. These telluric currents can actually be used as a power source for low voltages. In the days before telephones, telluric currents sometimes powered the telegraph lines which used a single conductor, and a ground rod for the return path. But back to LRL theories, ions could be involved because we know there are trace amounts of gold ions corroding into the soil and moving upward in a column. And electrostatics could be involved because we know there is a 100v/meter voltage gradient above in the air above the ground. We also know electrons are leaking from the ground into the air, driven by the force of this electric field gradient. Will this field gradient become changed above an area of more conductive, ionized soil where treasure is buried? You tell me... you are an EE. We have many choices for real physical phenomenon to develop a true explanation, but the buried gold emitting ions into the air and generating large electric fields from under the ground is not one of these possible explanations. Don't take my word for it. Test the air above some buried gold and see for yourself if there are any gold ions floating around there. Also put some probes in the ground near the buried gold to see if you can measure any strong electrostatic fields under the ground. Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#508
04-30-2011, 03:58 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
You are correct. An instrument which stimulates the target area will necessarily work diffrently than a passive instrument which measures only natural state signals. As an example, a conventional metal detector measures signals that don't exist naturally in any measureable amound from the buried metal. A passive detector in the case of buried metal is looking for a much smaller signal which is more likely to be buried in noise, and more difficult to find. This means you would need to make an exhaustive search to find the most likely kind of signal that will be strong enough to measure. The most likely candidate for a passive signal seems to be the atmospheric air charge. Everything else is tiny in comparison. As far as a large electric field gradient, this is the standard gradient in the air, driven by solar wind at the ionosphere. It varies from day to night, and from season to season, and even has local variations. But it usually falls in the range of 100-200 volts per meter altitude in the vicinity of the earth surface. See here for my previous discussion of this: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showt...688#post126688 The current leaking into the air is typically around 11.76 nA leaking from any 1 sq meter of earth surface on average. Of course we can't measure this current with any normal kind of milliammeter, but we can expect it will change to maybe double if the conductivity of the ground is caused to change to double the amount in found neighboring areas. The theory is that chemical reactions of corroding buried metals will change the conductivity of the ground to become higher than ground with no chemical activity involving metal corrosion. When this happens, we could expect the 100 v/meter gradient to be reduced in this local area of higher ground conductivity and higher current leaking into the air. This reduced voltage gradient should be easier to measure because it is in a range where we have instruments that can measure it. The only problem I have with this theory is I haven't seen any field data to support it. It would be interesting to see some actual tests that show the field gradient over uniform ground that has places where a conductivity/resistivity anomaly is created in the soil. In a test condition, the conductive soil area can be made by simply pouring water into a small hole and giving it time to absorb into the soil. Or maybe by driving a long metal rod into the ground to conduct to the lower layers, then pouring a bucket of water on the top surface. I am suspecting that if a zahori is very sensitive to electric field variations it will detect this variation in gradient. Of course, the same variation in gradient could be caused by a damp spot in the soil where an animal recently visited. This could result in finding a questionable treasure.  Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#509
04-30-2011, 05:36 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Don't take my word for it. Test the air above some buried gold and see for yourself if there are any gold ions floating around there. Also put some probes in the ground near the buried gold to see if you can measure any strong electrostatic fields under the ground.
Thanks for good preamble , and big problem is don’t have experimental goldTarget . I am not treasure hunter ,but interesting to philosophy of long buried Metals . Best regards.
|
|
#511
04-30-2011, 07:33 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
A gold target is easy. You can use any piece of gold jewelry and bury it. Or you can bury an old circuit board or component that has gold plating on the conductors. This will be more than enough to make as many ions as a solid gold item for test purposes. If you want to make gold ions, you can put the gold plated item into a dish with some aqua regia, or some cyanide solution to dissolve it. Then you will have a dish of gold ions that you can dump into a bucket of soil. Then you can stand above this bucket of soil with gold ions and check to see if there are any gold ions floating in the air. You could also check the theory for other buried metals. It is easy to bury copper, silver, lead, iron, zinc and any other metal you can find (These can be dissolved with less dangerous chemicals like muriatic acid and suphuric acid). Then measure the air above the buried metal to see if you can find some metal ions floating above them. If you know where there is a buried pipe, then you already have a long time buried metal place to test. My understanding is that the south to north detection is related to the magnetic field of the earth, not the conductivity of the air. For example, a compass will respond to a magnetic field. But the compass does not respond to the conductivity of the air. In the case of an electric charge detector that is being used to check the charge in the air, more conductive air is air which has higher humidity. I would expect that the current flow leaking from the earth to the atmosphere is more in areas of high humidity than dry areas. All this can change in weather systems where the local air charge can change to become more or less, or even reversed for short times. The only reason I would think south and north has some influence on air conductivity is if you are in an area where the wind currents travel from south to north to blow in air that has a different conductivity. I know of no magnetic component that can be measured when checking the electric charge of normal air, no matter what its conductivity is. Possibly in rare circumstances like during a storm, the air could be come much more conductive in certain paths and directions. This is generally what happens when lightning strikes. I doubt most treasure hunters would go hunting during these times, so I figure they are not seen much when treasure hunting. Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#512
04-30-2011, 08:42 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
The presence of the human hunter must then have a significant effect on the electric field in his immediate surrounding, given his relatively low resistance, specially on a hot humid day. One can model the human resistance roughly as an outer resistance and an internal body resistance, where the skin resistance is of the order of 2,000Ω or less if sweaty, and the internal body resistance on the order of 500Ω. The resistance to ground (forgetting shoes for the moment) is then: Rbody = Rskin(in) + Rinternal + Rskin(out) Since we get from the external skin to the lower resistance internal organs and back to the external skin. So Rbody ~4.5 KΩ maybe less if sweaty. Assuming a 2 meter height for the human, We would effectively have 400 V from head to feet and Ohm's law would say that we'd have almost 90 mA of current flowing through us, a lethal amount. Of course, we won't die because the source impedance behind that electric field is so high that it can't provide that kind of current. But, wouldn't our mere presence be sufficient to collapse that electric field in our vicinity?
__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
|
|
#513
04-30-2011, 11:35 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Yes the air is considered one of the best insulators and a dielectric which basically makes the earth a capacitor with an opposite pole at the ionosphere. When we consider the resistance of a person internally and externally, and even the resistance of his shoes, this resistance becomes a moot point because of the tiny amount of current that is flowing through the resistance of the air. The amount of current which normally leaks through the air is only around in the area he occupies is around 1 nA, which would quicly move from the ground through a person;s body before it met any noticable resistance that could develop a potential in his body. At this current level, the person (including most ordinary shoes he would be wearing) basically acts like a conductor, which raises the ground potential to his level. This is especially true on humid days. If we are talking about a very dry day where a person walks across a carpet to generate a sizable charge, then he could build up thousands of volts. A lot more than 1 nA will be leaking from him into the atmosphere in this condition. But without generating a charge by this method, only a tiny trickle of 1 nA will charge a person, that would require better insulating value than the air to keep from seeing him as a conductor and preferred path to the ground. Also consider that simply by being there, the person may double or triple the leakage current to 2-3nA in the surface area he occupies. However, in this same area, he has caused the voltage gradient to make an enormous anomaly where it dropped from 200v to 0v! ... Why it is better to measure anomalies in the voltage gradient. Another way of looking at it is a person standing on the ground (or plant, or any other partially conductive object) will raise the ground potential from the ground up to the level of their body. In essence, a person will distort the ground potential by simply being there. By standing on the ground, we have created the effect of a small hill shape on the ground to raise the ground potential to a higher altitude. Thus, we are not standing in a 100-200 volt/meter gradient because our body caused the gradient to drop much lower, nearly to ground potential along the full height of our body. This may be easier to understand when you consider a vertical cliff maybe 100 meters tall. We will se ground potential at its base and at the top, as well as all along the face of this cliff. We can expect the vertical voltage gradient of 100-200 volts/meter to be distorted to a horizontal gradient when measuring it at the face of the cliff. This distortion will be expected to gradually return to the normal vertical gradient as we move away from the cliff. You can see an illustration of this from the Dr. Feynman's book of his physics lectures Vol 2 chapter 9 -- online copy of this page here: http://student.fizika.org/~jsisko/Kn...Atmosphere.pdf Anything on the ground is basically a lightning rod/grounding rod unless it's resistance is somewhere close to the resistance of the air. And this is a fortunate state of affairs because it prevents people from inadvertently dying due to electric shock from accumulated atmospheric charge in non-storm conditions. But as a final thought, When we consider the big influence of everything from trees, people, hills, wild animals, lakes and streams in influencing the atmospheric voltage gradient, it seems more likely that a more conductive area of ground could have a significant effect on the gradient. Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#514
05-01-2011, 02:09 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Thanks, I think you said what I was trying to say much better. The implication is that a person standing in the field holding an electric field meter of some kind, is dramatically distorting the field the meter is reading and the distortion moves with the man/meter apparatus wherever they go. Hmm. BTW: I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Feynman back in the late sixties when he paid a visit to the company I was then working at. I was most impressed with his wit and demeanor.
__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
|
|
#515
05-01-2011, 02:24 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
About the electric field meter... some LRL enthusiasts such as Esteban say it is important to wear cotton clothing when using an LRL that works by sensing faint electric fields. This is so as not to develop a charge which could be seen as noise to a sensitive meter. Also, the typical LRL is held out in front of you hopefully at the periphery of whatever you are doing to the field. The presumption is the meter is looking through a fairly constant window of a gradient (your body gradient) to the distant charge anomalies that they try to detect. As long as your body charge gradient is not varying, it should not skew the reading, but simply raise the noise floor a little. We know a zahori detects something because it picks up electric power transmission lines from a very large distance. In the best of conditions, maybe it can detect nearby anomalies in the space charge. What I keep thinking is the influence of variations in the ground water will have a larger influence on the charge anomalies than traces of treasure ionization in the soil. This is why I think it is more suited to finding water. Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#516
05-01-2011, 04:09 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
|
|
#517
05-01-2011, 09:23 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
About that power line thing.... The original circuit for the zahori had a 4066 switch that was used as an input signal chopper set to 60 hz or to 50 Hz in Europe to filter out the power lines so you could concentrate on earth signals (es1, es2, es3 and 7555 below). It seemed a novel way to filter in a pseudo-digital manner, which also reset the input by unloading it, then sending a fresh ambient signal at each cycle. I suppose this kept the antenna from becoming overloaded with air charges. You could also tune this 50/60 hz for a beat frequency and concievably operate it as a BFO to see if any local anomalies will cause the internal clock to drift and make an audible sound. The original article published with the zahori circuit described it as an "electronic water witch". And it seems like it may actually work for that purpose, considering the known facts about local atmospheric field anomalies. Also note an early antenna mod changed to three extra long antennas which are extended to protrude nearly 3 meters beyond the person holding it when you consider his arm as part of the assembly. This was probably intended to move the sensor part away from the field distortions caused by the user. But most zahori builders removed this line-power filter function from thier zahori when they bagan hacking it. Today's versions are simply FET charge detectors which may have various antenna schemes to replace the original, and small pieces of gold soldered into the antenna -- a strange arrangement. But hey, if someone finds treasure with it, why not? It's not like they paid 5000 eu for these experimental LRLs. What most experimenter never noticed about the original design is it contains an interesting feature which could be exploited. Suppose you were to synchronize the chopper circuit with the local power line fields, using a feedback loop or a PLL to track the line frequency. You now have essentially a signal sync circuit similar to an oscilloscope trigger. You can examine a repeating wave for an anomaly when pointing the zahori in a particular direction. If you have instruments available to examine the input signal, you can also add some circuits to further filter known repeaitng noise, and leave you with a cleaner earth signal. From here, you can look to see if you can find any "treasure signal" that comes when you pointi to long-time buried gold, for example. Your additional filtering could easily take adjustable time duration slices of each repeating 50/60 Hz wave to examine a part where you found something interesting. This could be a worthwhile electronic adventure if the buried treasure is somehow stimulated by man-made noise to emit a signal that can be detected. If the theories of LRL enthusuasts are correct, then this would be a good way to isolate this elusive gold signal and build a magic zahori to find only gold at long range. If it didn't work, then maybe it would still be good to tell when you are close to ground water that is near the surface.  Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#518
05-19-2011, 01:15 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Hi
report of some field test for mini zahori!: i use AL wire as antenna, not big difrence in performance; i removed the brass sample, and L2, now it work better than before! yesterday it can detect a hole at about 1meter underground at distance of about 2-3 meter but there was not treasure. mehdi
|
|
#519
05-19-2011, 02:19 PM
|
||||
|
||||
Zahori Brother
Quote:
|
|
#520
05-19-2011, 03:53 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Hi Mehdi and all friends.
Last weekend i made a short test with mini zahorie. The detector mades a tac tac tac on one direction, so i tryied to pinpoint the signal that was a small area of about 50 by 50 centimiters. Then i took my metal detector and yes, it detected a signal, that after i dig it was just a small aluminium foil. Perhaps it wasn´t a treasure, but i must said that for me it worked in detecting that aluminium foil at a distance of 1 meter. I thing this is a good startting point at least for me. I m waitting for this weekend to try it again. Regards Nelson Quote:
|
|
#521
05-19-2011, 04:10 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
After digging the target found with the metal detector, recheck the area again with the Zahori to see if the signal is still there or if it has disappeared. Also, check the rest of the site with the metal detector. The results of these tests will no doubt be most illuminating.
|
|
#522
05-19-2011, 04:39 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Hi to all If for first time detection done with zahori ,then check aria with metal detector, Using again zahori at seem area after metal detector will be without result, Because metal detector transmitter section destroyed phenomenon energy!!!!!! Best regards.
|
|
#523
05-19-2011, 04:45 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Hi mehdi Detected hole!!!!!!!!!! Maybe Your zahori so sensitive now , in this condition you have noise from unwanted Subject
|
|
#524
05-19-2011, 06:17 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Nobody has ever established that a phenomenon has energy. This is simply a legend experimenters began to believe when they hear stories of LRLs beeping in the direction of buried metal. We also see the geologist VLF receivers make different strength readings when they move them to different places at the ground surface. Some of these changes can also be caused by metal things buried for a long time. But we know they are not measuring energy coming from the metal of a phenomenon. They are measuring how much RF is absorbed into the ground, which tells them variations in the ground conductivity. Geologists also can detect metal particles in the ground by using induced polarization and spectral induced polarization to find various different metals buried for a long time. They know for certain they are not measuring any energy emitted from buried metal when using these methods. They know for certain they are measuring properties of the metal and the ground it is buried in, not energy emitted from the metal or any energy-emitting phenomenon. When we hear a signal coming from a static charge detector, we have no way to know if the charge variation we are measuring was caused by energy emitted, or a static charge accumulated, or a cloud of charged particles in the air near where the antenna is held. If we find buried metal, then this does not tell us the metal or the ground emitted energy. It only tells us we measured a change in the charge in the air above where the metal is buried. Until you make some experiments with instruments, you can't even know if the change in the air charge was positive or negative. You only know it is an anomaly in the air charge strong enough to measure, not if it is increased energy or decreased energy of a charge. From what I have heard reported so far, it seems to me to be very unlikely that any energy is emitted from buried metal or from the soil it is buried in. The probabilities alone point to anomalies in the earth's electrostatic charge that you are measuring, not to energy radiating from the soil or from buried metal. Any ionic activity in the soil could not be measured without putting probes in the soil. And we look at where the zahori antenna is put... in the air -- not in the soil. In fact, we are measuring variations of charges in the air. The whole idea that we are measuring energy emitted from a phenomenon, or from the ground is wrong.... it is only some theoretical idea people made up. I do not think it is a good idea to continue the legend that buried metals emit energy unless you have some strong evidence to show there is actually some energy emissions that you measured, and show what kind of energy this is, to show you are not simply measuring an anomaly in the air charge. Best wishes, J_P
|
|
#525
05-19-2011, 06:27 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Phenomenon Testing
Here is a test I think can give better information about the secrets of "the phenomenon"
1. When you find beeping on your zahori, Write down some information: A. How far distance it is beeping. B. How wet is the ground. C. Any plants near? Rocks near, etc. ? D. Near to power lines, buildings? 2. Dig for target and write down more information: A. What did you find? how big? Empty hole? B. How deep below surface? C. Measure again with Zahori - how much distance it beeps when target is removed and hole is empty? 3. Put dirt back into hole, and compact it with your foot to make it hard same as before you start digging. Then take another measurement with the zahori to see how far distance you find beeping when there is no target in the hole. We will now have 8 items of data to help us learn real information about "phenomenon" instead of believe legends that always change from different theories. We can use facts and data that people measure instead of theories. And we can learn some real ideas about what "the phenomenon" is. Best wishes, J_P
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
