Morgan and Geo's Videos

[ivconic]

"...Hi Ivconic,
Are you teaching how real science and truth works in relation to treasure locating machines?

Ok, for starters, The FDA does not test metal locators. ..."



You already understand my points very well! Don't play naive!
Story about LRL is much greater and older than this recent PD event.
LRL proponents constantly invokes to rellations between official science and their parallel world.
In my previous post i wanted to point on methods how real science really functioning.
Other words - it is to early to be much enthusiastic.
I've been long enough on this forum to remember enormous efforts in the past involved on this subject.
Drug industry is just an industry. But methods and processes are uniform.
Want something to achieve? Want something to establish? Want something to present to the world? Than obey the usuall routine!
Do on proper way or don't do it at all!
That was my point in previous post.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by ivconic

"...Hi Ivconic,
Are you teaching how real science and truth works in relation to treasure locating machines?

Ok, for starters, The FDA does not test metal locators. ..."



You already understand my points very well! Don't play naive!
Story about LRL is much greater and older than this recent PD event.
LRL proponents constantly invokes to rellations between official science and their parallel world.
In my previous post i wanted to point on methods how real science really functioning.
Other words - it is to early to be much enthusiastic.
I've been long enough on this forum to remember enormous efforts in the past involved on this subject.
Drug industry is just an industry. But methods and processes are uniform.
Want something to achieve? Want something to establish? Want something to present to the world? Than obey the usuall routine!
Do on proper way or don't do it at all!
That was my point in previous post.

Hi Ivconic,
I think you are wrong. The methods and processes for the drug industry are not the same uniform methods as used for the treasure hunting industry. Otherwise, we would not be seeing the new metal detector models until they are 10 years old.

I also don't agree that there is a "usual routine" or "Proper way" that a metal locator must be tested. I think if a detector works satisfactorily for the person who uses it, then it is good enough.

I doubt your attempt to shift the focus to past LRL stories will work when we are addressing the present demonstration hosted by Morgan. It is obvious to most readers that his event is a big departure from the past "stories" without any firsthand witnesses to see if what they were saying is correct or not. We all know that nobody in the Remote Sensing forum has ever invited all other members of the forum to witness their machines working live. So this event is not the same as previous stories where we were expected to believe whatever stories were told just because the words were posted in the forum.

Sure I understand your points. But I think they are flawed, because they do not pertain to the event Morgan hosted. They pertain to multi-billion dollar government regulated insdustries, and to ominous anecdotal LRL stories told in the past. In other words, I think you are wrong. Further, I think you are intentionally using analogies that you know are not pertinent in order to further your agenda. But this is just what I think, I could be wrong.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Ivconic,
I think you are wrong. The methods and processes for the drug industry are not the same uniform methods as used for the treasure hunting industry. Otherwise, we would not be seeing the new metal detector models until they are 10 years old.

I also don't agree that there is a "usual routine" or "Proper way" that a metal locator must be tested. I think if a detector works satisfactorily for the person who uses it, then it is good enough.

I doubt your attempt to shift the focus to past LRL stories will work when we are addressing the present demonstration hosted by Morgan. It is obvious to most readers that his event is a big departure from the past "stories" without any firsthand witnesses to see if what they are saying is correct or not. We all know that nobody in the Remote Sensing forum has ever invited all other members of the forum to witness thier machines working live. So this event is not the same as previous stories where we were expected to believe whatever stories were told just because the words were posted in the forum.

Sure I understand your points. But I think they are flawed, because they do not pertain to the event Morgan hosted. They pertain to multi-billion dollar government regulated insdustries, and to ominous anecdotal LRL stories told in the past. In other words, I think you are wrong. Further, I think you are intentionally using analogies that you know are not pertinent in order to further your agenda. But this is just what I think, I could be wrong.

Best wishes,
J_P

Eh! We can continue like this forever. But we are smart enough not to. We disagree. Ok with that.
I just want to point you on video (link to video) posted somewhere on these pages, long time ago.
Most probably Hung and Esteban will remember exactly where that link was posted. I just remember that i saw it at the time.
It is video showing Mineoro (some model) testing at some corn field. Several people (i think Dell also was there...or maybe i am wrong, excuse me if i made mistake) are testing Mineoro and dug a huge hole and discovered some neckless or something. So...
Looking that video (without prejudices about persons involved) and looking recent videos....i dont see the differences at all. I dont see why and how recent videos provide more truth and proofs than that video from the past?
What is so better in recent videos?
Why all of the sudden to start being so enthusiastic about recent videos and not to about that old video we have been seen in the past?
That was my point all the time here.
Ok... we disagree in many points. I really dont want to waste my time debating with you on such irrelevant subject (for me) here.
I said what i had to say. I have nothing more to say. It is just my personal opinion.
Cheers!

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Ivconic

i dont see the differences at all. I dont see why and how recent videos provide more truth and proofs than that video from the past?

The difference is you and all other forum members were not invited to attend that past event and try the LRLs with your own hands.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

Ok, that's true. Correct. But the rest is pretty same generally.

[WM6]

For LRL believers, LRL promoters, LRL sellers, LRL producers and their J_Lawyers "as seen on videos" dummy tricks are "the whole truth and nothing but the truth". Well known, not worth to discuss.

But the truth is for one religion to another only cheap LRL promotional trick. Religion (even shintoism) does not need evidence, for it is sufficient only to believe. LRL promotional tricks (although called "undiscovered science", or because of this) but can be easily demonstrated, even if they are made under the medieval maxim: "cuius regio eius religio".

There is only one answer to all LRL believers, LRL promoters, LRL sellers, LRL producers and their J_Lawyers: come to my "regio" (testing field) and repeat such dummy trics. I am willing to buy 20 gr gold medal with the inscription "LRL WINNER", and buried only 5 cm deep in soil, and if you manage to find it with any of yours LRL crappy toys, medal is yours. That medal is really buried at the end we prove by ordinary Chinese metal detector.

So stop by bla bla loading here and prepare instead yourself on the real controlled test.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by WM6

...come to my "regio" (testing field) and repeat such dummy trics...

...So stop by bla bla loading here and prepare instead yourself on the real controlled test.

Can you show us photos of your controlled testing facilities?

Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

Originally Posted by Jarek

Morgan and Geo great work, I'm glad someone had finally posted some nice videos.
It seems to me that the general public is simply expecting great results from an emerging field. Are the results achieved by regular MD so great? but we should keep in mind that metal detectors have been in use for XXX number of years. They were widely used during WWII and were constantly improved to achieve what have now. But still after so many years, as far as I'm concerned we don't even have a coil that would detect gold only. How many pull tabs and bottle caps we have to pick before we find a ring?
Therefore for me what I saw on those videos was a great achievement. I wish best of luck to all those like: Geo, Morgan, Esteban and others who are in pursuit of discovering new things not yet known to the science.
In the Shintoism (religion of Japan) they say: there is 100% of the world's knowledge, 3% are the things we know that we know (like speaking your own language or using a metal detector ), 7% are the things we know that we don't know (how to fly an airplane or perform a surgery) and the rest are things that we don't know that we don't know.

Very good post and wise comparison.

You will still get to the conclusion (like me years ago), that the 'true wallet miners' are the ordinary concept MD corporations who make thousands and thousands of dollars a year selling old WWII detector concepts for consumers and making them believe there's no choice other than the outdated local induced magnetic field methods.

Just like fossil fuel corporations will inevitably surrender to the evidence of new clean and much more advanced energy options, it's only a matter of time before MD consumers realize the difference between a toy and a tool.

Regards.

[Clondike Clad]

Originally Posted by hung

Very good post and wise comparison.

You will still get to the conclusion (like me years ago), that the 'true wallet miners' are the ordinary concept MD corporations who make thousands and thousands of dollars a year selling old WWII detector concepts for consumers and making them believe there's no choice other than the outdated local induced magnetic field methods.

Just like fossil fuel corporations will inevitably surrender to the evidence of new clean and much more advanced energy options, it's only a matter of time before MD consumers realize the difference between a toy and a tool.

Regards.

Why not let the pros test the detectors (UL etc)
Why not arls DB test.
Why not post on youtube etc.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Ok, that's true. Correct. But the rest is pretty same generally.

Hi Ivconic,
I don´t know the video you refer to , but one other probable difference is that they have nothing to sell .
This is not propaganda.

I have posted this before, i´m sure you will think about it:this is a possible scenario to explain (reletively) long range detection:

-Long time buried metal creates an anomaly larger than the metal itself (it is a fact, halo effect)
-this anomaly creates a difference in soil resistivity (for ex.)
-This (lower) soil resistivity creates a difference in voltage gradient above it.

Then you measure the voltage gradient (100v/m) above earth surface...
This is not easy nor 100% fiable,plus direction sensitive, thus all the problems found with thos devices.

[Jim]

From the videos, it appears the targets were known. That is no big surprise.

What is a surprise is how violently you have to swing/shake/move the locators about to make them work. Once over the target (within a few inches) they do not work. Just how in the heck do you pinpoint something when it beeps with your arm extended out to the right, but you are walking straight ahead?

The pinpointing skills with the metal detector was so dramatic, it was ridicules. Its over here…no, its over here..no, its way over here.

Good grief folks

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by hung

You will still get to the conclusion (like me years ago), that the 'true wallet miners' are the ordinary concept MD corporations who make thousands and thousands of dollars a year selling old WWII detector concepts for consumers and making them believe there's no choice other than the outdated local induced magnetic field methods.

Regards.

Hung, do you come up with these incredibly wrong ideas and notions all by yourself, or is there an outside agency paying you to put them in print here?

Apparently, you've not taken the time to examine or use a modern-day MD in the last 50 years. Maybe if you'd put down that random-beeping contraption, based on a nonsense theory, and do a little homework on the subject, you would become enlightened.

Or... maybe not.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Jim

From the videos, it appears the targets were known. That is no big surprise.

What is a surprise is how violently you have to swing/shake/move the locators about to make them work. Once over the target (within a few inches) they do not work. Just how in the heck do you pinpoint something when it beeps with your arm extended out to the right, but you are walking straight ahead?

The pinpointing skills with the metal detector was so dramatic, it was ridicules. Its over here…no, its over here..no, its way over here.

Good grief folks

Aaaaaa... Hmmmm... you noticed that too.

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Fred

Hi Ivconic,
I don´t know the video you refer to , but one other probable difference is that they have nothing to sell .
This is not propaganda.

I have posted this before, i´m sure you will think about it:this is a possible scenario to explain (reletively) long range detection:

-Long time buried metal creates an anomaly larger than the metal itself (it is a fact, halo effect)
-this anomaly creates a difference in soil resistivity (for ex.)
-This (lower) soil resistivity creates a difference in voltage gradient above it.

Then you measure the voltage gradient (100v/m) above earth surface...
This is not easy nor 100% fiable,plus direction sensitive, thus all the problems found with thos devices.

Think twice. Morgan himself probably has nothing to promote and sell. But remember the experiences from videos; Alonso's PD was more accurate and sensitive than Morgan's!
So...indirect way to persuade public that there is "something" behind the bush!
Hung just proclaimed new miracle from Alonso's kitchen :
"... I talked to Mineoro this week and the one thing which might resemble a little miracle from Alonso will come up soon..."

Ok...this could sound as conspiracy theory, which in fact is not. I am sceptic but i am not paranoic (at least not that much) !

About the rest:

"....-Long time buried metal creates an anomaly larger than the metal itself (it is a fact, halo effect)
-this anomaly creates a difference in soil resistivity (for ex.)
-This (lower) soil resistivity creates a difference in voltage gradient above it.

Then you measure the voltage gradient (100v/m) above earth surface...
This is not easy nor 100% fiable,plus direction sensitive, thus all the problems found with thos devices...."

Good thinking. I agree. Conventional science already made some steps in that direction. Magnetometry, NMR, GPR ...etc..etc..
We are hobbysts here, we deal with "easy" stuff. More advance technology is already available....for certain sum of course - we can not afford!
But in industry simillar technology is already in use for some time.
Not cheap stuff - way over our league, that's why we dont speak to much about those....

[hung]

Originally Posted by Jim

What is a surprise is how violently you have to swing/shake/move the locators about to make them work. Good grief folks

Wrong.
That's why I have stated that the images will bring much more confusion than explanations to unexperienced people.

One more time: NO need to swing/shake or move the device at all is required.
A stationary position of the arm will make the device beep. It's not friction of air or something else which makes it react, but the response of the fields around a target . In the video, they sweeped the device for pinpointing when close to target or just because they wished it to. From long range, a stationary position of device will make it beep as well.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Theseus

?apparently you've not taken the time to examine or use a modern-day MD in the last 50 years. Maybe if you'd put down that random-beeping contraption, based on a nonsense theory, and do a little homework on the subject, you would become enlightened.

Or... maybe not.

Your 'modern-day' MD still can't tell the difference between a gold coin from a pull tab. And if this last one is degraded, forget it.
The only thing good ordinary MDs did was improving the user health.
User walks miles and gets fit.

[Max]

Originally Posted by hung

Wrong.
That's why I have stated that the images will bring much more confusion than explanations to unexperienced people.

One more time: NO need to swing/shake or move the device at all is required.
A stationary position of the arm will make the device beep. It's not friction of air or something else which makes it react, but the response of the fields around a target . In the video, they sweeped the device for pinpointing when close to target or just because they wished it to. From long range, a stationary position of device will make it beep as well.

Dr Hung.... new stuff !???

Even Esteban told us that device need to be slowly sweeped right-left/left-right...

What are you talking about ???

Always non sense from you... and red hairs...

Kind regards,
Max

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by hung

Your 'modern-day' MD still can't tell the difference between a gold coin from a pull tab. And if this last one is degraded, forget it.
The only thing good ordinary MDs did was improving the user health.
User walks miles and gets fit.

Ehhh! Hung! It is not like that! I suggest you to try White's DFX, Minelab Explorer SE and most probably new Spectra (this one i havent seen yet).
Those machines are capable to recognize alloys pretty accurate. I was/am delited with Explorer SE and it's learn mode! Hot stuff!

[Max]

Originally Posted by hung

Your 'modern-day' MD still can't tell the difference between a gold coin from a pull tab. And if this last one is degraded, forget it.
The only thing good ordinary MDs did was improving the user health.
User walks miles and gets fit.

Hmmmmm.....

With Mineoro even better... cause you'll find nothing and continue walking... till will arrive in China...

Kind regards,
Max

[hung]

Actually, not to be totally negative about MDs, I own a Minelab Excalibur which I use exclusively when I dive for ocean floor work. It's very good and keeps falsing to a minimum.
The day I figure out how to make a waterproof LRL to dive with it, I would certainly retire it.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by hung

The only thing good ordinary MDs did was improving the user health.
User walks miles and gets fit.

Right! And this is big weakness of LRLs. By LRL you do not need to walk, because you detect all gold from Long Range Distance from your armchair. What charm of search are those LRL-ing?

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by hung

Your 'modern-day' MD still can't tell the difference between a gold coin from a pull tab. And if this last one is degraded, forget it.
The only thing good ordinary MDs did was improving the user health.
User walks miles and gets fit.

Your random beeper can't either. At least a metal detector can eliminate the huge quantities of tin foil and identify scrap magnetic metal in the ground. According to the video I just saw, the random beeper reacts to tin foil, odd bits of scrap metal, probably pop bottle caps and who knows what else.

And, if the wild swinging gyrations are any indication of what is necessary to create beeping sounds... I could imagine there may have been a mercury switch in the box and as a result of the "swinging"; caused a circuit to close that caused the beeping. Just another thought....

Incidentally, the video I just saw showed operators walking too. Not once did I see the operator stand stock still point to a spot 30 feet ahead of him and indicate to dig in a designated spot. Of course the arm swinging results in good exercise too, as well as the walking.

[hung]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Ehhh! Hung! It is not like that! I suggest you to try White's DFX, Minelab Explorer SE and most probably new Spectra (this one i havent seen yet).
Those machines are capable to recognize alloys pretty accurate. I was/am delited with Explorer SE and it's learn mode! Hot stuff!

Ivconic, I'm not talking about devices per se. I'm talking about the concept used. I'm sure there are improved models out there, but the concept is the same.

No matter how much electronics you put in a radio it will still be a radio.

Regards.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Ehhh! Hung! It is not like that! I suggest you to try White's DFX, Minelab Explorer SE and most probably new Spectra (this one i havent seen yet).
Those machines are capable to recognize alloys pretty accurate. I was/am delited with Explorer SE and it's learn mode! Hot stuff!

Remember, Hung has not experienced a modern-day MD, so he is not aware of the advances. He is probably still using the Garrett Dual Coil BFO that I retired in 1972.

Or, perhaps he still uses the WWII war surplus detector.

[ivconic]

"...Ivconic, I'm not talking about devices per se. I'm talking about the concept used. I'm sure there are improved models out there, but the concept is the same.
No matter how much electronics you put in a radio it will still be a radio...."



Not really. See... there was evolution with appearances of DSP. DSP oriented machines are quite different in morphology than conventional ones. Different approach, different type of signall that is processed at them. Major differences.
The fact that those are still "boxes with coils" means nothing really.
Quite different technology involved there. Advanced...pretty advanced.
Huge steps have being made since '90s.

Ok...just look the shot i attached. Obvious differences between pulltab and gold coin. Can't be confused at all..