Solve the circuit...

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by ivconic

If we all closer i'll call all of you to some pub and have beer with you!
rergards

Sounds good to me.
But I don't want that beer with the chilli pepper in it.
Some real ale would be better, or even Qing Dao (Tsingdao) pijiu!

[ivconic]

I rather prefer Guiness....although Heineken and Bud can do a job as well!
Afer that final match France-Italy....all i need is packet of very cold beer...
the hell with detectors and nuts!
regards

[Dell Winders]

Dell i'll be very sorry if you understand me wrong....I am not claiming that you are fraud

Ivconic, I appreciate your clarifying that. Thank You! It is the motive and and agenda of my Skeptic cult accusers that is questionable.

I don't drink, but I would be proud to come to the pub and shake your hand.. My kindest regards to you. Dell

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Originally Posted by Dell Winders
The logical solution would be for you to ask whoever made it what it is for? I can't speak for other people.

OK, Dell... what is it for?

Carl, according to your description of the device, I am not the manufacturer. It would be dishonest of me to accept credit.

But, for you to intentionally infer that I am the manufacturer is to lie.

Your normal modus operandi is to blame someone else for everything... maybe that electrical engineer you paid $40/hour. I do know for a fact that you sold this particular device, so if you don't have the moral fortitude to stand up and take responsibility for horrendous piece of junk, then this will be no surprise.

I see by the mocking that a few others share your mentality for promoting deceptions to keep you from having to apologize. Dell

What do I need to apologize for? I said the stuff you sell is garbage... it's true.

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

Carl, this is what you now say you said

What do I need to apologize for? I said the stuff you sell is garbage... it's true.- Carl

Carl, this is what you said. There is a difference between the responsibilities of a manufacturer that makes products, and an independent dealer who just sells products.

It was not an inference, Dell... you make garbage products. - Carl

Look at yourself, Carl. You are a habitual liar. You make up one lie to cover another.
Let me repeat, I did not, and do not build, or manufacture the products you are claiming I do. That is a flat out lie.

Your saying that I sold the product does make it true either, but if I did, let the person who purchased it from me come forward with their complaint, if they have one, and let's see if it can be resolved. My phone number is 863 422-5454. I live in Haines City, Florida, for the past 25 years so there has never been a concern for any customer with a problem to contact me.

When was this product puschased from me, by who, and what is the model & serial #?

O.K, Carl, you accuse me of making garbage, and selling a horrendus piece of junk. No customers have ever informed me of that. That's strictly your personal opinion, not a fact, and should be presented honestly as being only your personal opinion, least it may appear that you are hell bent on slander, and giving folks an inaccurate impression about me.

I was a White's metal detector dealer, and sold metal detectors manufactured by Whites. I sold underwater PI detectors manufactured by ELSEC,in England. I had the distributorship for the USA & Canada, for Radar Systems, inc, and sold ZOND Ground Pentrating Radar, manufactured by Radar Systems, Inc. I also sold Frequency Discrimination Locators, manufactured by Vernell, Inc. I even tried to sell Fuller Brush products. My name is also on a computer brand. But you know something, Carl Moreland, is one of only (my considered opinion) 3 skeptic cult idiots in the world who insist that Dell Winders, be held responsible for those products I have sold which were manufactured, and warranted by another company. If that is considered rational thinking for any business by any one viewing, or participating in these forums, I may have mistakenly entered the door to a Carl's Geotech looney bin.

Folks, I don't know of any independent dealer anywhere that is responsible for the content of a manufacturers product. I'm not sure what was meant bynot having moral fortitude, but if If any of you believe it is immoral of me to personally pay the cost of shipping & repair of manufacturers products long after the customers factory warranties had expired, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

If any of you believe it is immoral for me to tell any of my customers that if they aren't satisfied with my product after they have tried it, to send it back for a full refund, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

If any of you believe it is immoral for me to honestly inform customers about the limitations of the products I build & sell, before they purchase, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

If any of you believe it is immoral for me to have spent countless years of my time to personally instruct hundreds of LRL purchasers of all manufacture, and share my field experience to help them get the most benefit from their purchase, with never a fee, or obligation, then it is a matter of record that I am immoral.

Thank goodness everyone in this world is not consumed by prejudice and ego driven as Carl, appears to be.

"THE DOOR TO KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING IS NEVER OPEN TO A CLOSED OR PREJUDICED MIND" Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Regardless of anyone's opinions of dowsing or LRLs I can understand that the purpose of this little circuit is to provide some tactile feedback to the dowser when the rods cross and touch each other. In fact, I would expect the user to receive a small electrical stimulus as the magnetic field in the relay collapses, assuming the handles of the rods are not insulated.

However, even the most amateurish electronics engineer can readily see that this circuit as it stands is not a good implementation, and hence Carl's comment that it was "crap". Any design that shorts out the battery as part of it's operation is not a good design, unless it's purpose is to discharge the battery, which (in this case) presumably was not the intention. An alternative method I can think of would be to use a vibrating mechanism, similar to those found in mobile phones or video game controllers. Personally I wouldn't be too keen to use a device that would give me the shock treatment. It would be a bit like Chinese water torture, as you wouldn't know when the next shock was coming.

[Esteban]

I try all!!!

Qiaozhi, you mention a vibrating mechanism. Some years ago I had the fix idea of making a vibrating LRL I can "eliminate" in part the famous "ideomotor effect". So, I decide to put a minimotor inside a LRL rod, wich actuates as vibratory mechanism. See the image.

A day, in "normal circumstance" (motor in off) don't obtain any movement of the rod. But battery key in on, a small movement was produced 10-15 seconds after and the antenna signalize a site (the landlord said me that another person with LRL rods don't obtain "signal" in his patio). I walk 15 meters and the rod turns back in X site. Check the site with my Bounty Hunter and found at 15 cm depth an old copper buckle, exactly in the point the rod turns. Coincidence? This is my "solution" for all us!!!

[Dell Winders]

Regardless of anyone's opinions of dowsing or LRLs I can understand that the purpose of this little circuit is to provide some tactile feedback to the dowser when the rods cross and touch each other. In fact, I would expect the user to receive a small electrical stimulus as the magnetic field in the relay collapses, assuming the handles of the rods are not insulated.

Qiaozhi, I already asked, Carl. Apparently that is not the reason. Dell

Originally Posted by Dell Winders
When you field tested the unit, did you experience a mild shock, or tingling in your hands when you walked through the "field" of the signal line leading to the target? Dell

No, not at all. - Carl

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Folks, I don't know of any independent dealer anywhere that is responsible for the content of a manufacturers product.

My comments concern the LRLs you sell under your own name, not White's metal detectors, or Zond GPR, or even Vernell's garbage. If I open up a White's metal detector, and discover a relay that intentionally shorts out the battery, then I will blame White's, not the dealer.

So are you, or are you not, responsible for the LRLs sold with the label "Dell Systems" on them?

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

In fact, I would expect the user to receive a small electrical stimulus as the magnetic field in the relay collapses, assuming the handles of the rods are not insulated.

The handles are mostly insulated, but you still won't get a zap, since all the current will flow through the rods and not your hands. You are merely touching both sides of a dead short.

[Carl-NC]

Here is a pic of the L-rods along with the black box that contains the Rapid Discharge Oscillator. A piece of lamp cord with an audio connector plugs into a jack on the black box. Also shown are the ground probes made from PVC, brass rods, and lamp cord. See the VR800 report for a closer look at the L-rods & the probes.

[Dell Winders]

Carl, I see you are finally showing what your deception game is about. How many ways and how many more years are you going to keep rehashing your outdated reports to try to get people to believe the skeptic Cult lies degrading my honesty and integrity?

So are you, or are you not, responsible for the LRLs sold with the label "Dell Systems" on them?]

Not, for the content, if I am not the manufacturer. I've already said that.

Boy, that product is old. Do the parts still work?
Carl, The VR-800 has a white label on the back that provides the name of the manufacturer, Vernell, inc. Did you miss seeing that in all these years?

The name Dell Systems, is also used by Dell computers. They won't accept responsibility for the content of products manufactured by another company either.

I do accept dealer responsibility, If, the customer purchased the product from me? Dell

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

The handles are mostly insulated, but you still won't get a zap, since all the current will flow through the rods and not your hands. You are merely touching both sides of a dead short.

Hi Carl,

OK - I can see from the photo that the handles are insulated. However, even if they were not I would expect to receive a small shock, as I doubt the rods are creating a perfect short. Have you tried holding the metal of the rods and touching lightly together?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I try all!!!

Qiaozhi, you mention a vibrating mechanism. Some years ago I had the fix idea of making a vibrating LRL I can "eliminate" in part the famous "ideomotor effect". So, I decide to put a minimotor inside a LRL rod, wich actuates as vibratory mechanism. See the image.

A day, in "normal circumstance" (motor in off) don't obtain any movement of the rod. But battery key in on, a small movement was produced 10-15 seconds after and the antenna signalize a site (the landlord said me that another person with LRL rods don't obtain "signal" in his patio). I walk 15 meters and the rod turns back in X site. Check the site with my Bounty Hunter and found at 15 cm depth an old copper buckle, exactly in the point the rod turns. Coincidence? This is my "solution" for all us!!!

Hi Esteban,

That's it! Don't you agree it's a much better solution than shorting out the battery?
Apart from the buckle, how many other items have you suceessfully detected?

[Dell Winders]

Qiaozhi, when folks use Rods to meter a "field" they try not to touch them together. Does that make sense?

If I remember correctly, the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch while they are plugged into the belt unit. I'm Sorry you weren't informed. Dell

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Carl, The VR-800 has a white label on the back that provides the name of the manufacturer, Vernell, inc. Did you miss seeing that in all these years?

Oh no, I saw the label... pictured below*. Funny, it only says "Dell Omnitron", nothing about Vernell.

The name Dell Systems, is also used by Dell computers. They won't accept responsibility for the content of products manufactured by another company either.

Really? Are you sure? Most of the components they use to build computers are manufactured by other companies. It's been my experience that if a component goes bad and it's under warranty, Dell will replace it, even though they did not manufacture it.

- Carl

* This is not the VR800 I own, which also says "Dell Omnitron" on the label. I've removed the model # & serial # info, as the owner wishes to remain anonymous.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Have you tried holding the metal of the rods and touching lightly together?

Don't recall whether I touched them lightly or not... probably did at one time or another... just got buzzing from the relay, no electrical sensation at all.

The device has been returned to its owner, so I would have to build one to do any further testing.

- Carl

[Seeker]

[quote=Esteban]I try all!!!

Hi Esteban,
I will try to build your construction and check how it work.
So, can I use for motor a little vibration module from GSM unit and for better turning of rod a little ball-bearing from PC harddisc(diameter 10mm)? For rod I will use telescopic antenna about 400mm.In this case I need only 1 battery 1,5V.
The handle will be Al.tube,80mm long,diameter 30mm.
What mast be frequency and amplitude of vibrations?

[Esteban]

Qiaozhi:

For me is more economic this motor arrangament than other showed here. The motor works when you press (all the moment of the "detection") the momentary switch, so is an economic option.

As the "theory" refers the LRL rods works via nervous system, so this vibrational movement produces some effect???

Another items was a nickel-copper coin from Argentina and a small silver cilinder (don't know piece of what it is). And this item I found where a "professional" dowser only found in same area dirty piece of bronze, rest.

I stop because don't have patience with it. I prefer experiment in electronic long range locator (really medium range).

[Esteban]

Seeker:

I use a simple tape record motor, think is 3,000 rpm. Is important that the case od the motor be in contact with the tube for to transmit the vibration to the hand. I use PVC tube as handle. I use two bearing-balls and for to center better the rod. See the drawing. Also you can build LRL rod by Carl here:

http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geot...lrl1/index.dat

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Qiaozhi, when folks use Rods to meter a "field" they try not to touch them together. Does that make sense?

If I remember correctly, the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch while they are plugged into the belt unit. I'm Sorry you weren't informed. Dell

If the rods do not actually touch, then I fail to understand the purpose of this circuit.
For anything to happen at all, you would need to hold down the red button on the unit, otherwise ... basically - nothing. :confused:
Also - pressing down the red button lights the LED before shorting out the battery, and then repeating this cycle until the battery is discharged.
So what is it supposed to do?????
Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Seeker]

[quote=Esteban]Seeker:

I use a simple tape record motor, think is 3,000 rpm

Hi,Esteban, do you place on axis of motor some eccentric mass to get vibration or there is normal motor self vibration?
In 3000rpm you have giroscopic moment exept vibration,that will move your hand and turn the rod.This is "motor effect"
To get purely vibration I think to use little speaker(piezo) and 555, and I can change frequency and amplitude of vibration.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Dell Winders
Qiaozhi, when folks use Rods to meter a "field" they try not to touch them together. Does that make sense?

If I remember correctly, the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch while they are plugged into the belt unit. I'm Sorry you weren't informed. Dell

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

If the rods do not actually touch, then I fail to understand the purpose of this circuit.
For anything to happen at all, you would need to hold down the red button on the unit, otherwise ... basically - nothing. :confused:
Also - pressing down the red button lights the LED before shorting out the battery, and then repeating this cycle until the battery is discharged.
So what is it supposed to do?????
Doesn't make any sense to me.

OK - I've thought about this a bit more, and now I'm certain this is a really stupid circuit. :mad:
If (as Dell states above) the VR-800 instructions clearly state that it will short the battery if the rods touch - then why the hell are they connected across the switch????? :confused:
If they're not allowed to touch, then absolutely nothing happens. However, previously Dell asked Carl:

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

When you field tested the unit, did you experience a mild shock, or tingling in your hands when you walked through the "field" of the signal line leading to the target? Dell

This could only happen if these two points are true:
1. The rods are allowed to touch. (Carl correctly states that, as you are actually touching both sides of a dead short, you would not "feel" the back emf from the relay coil. Although I'm not certain you wouldn't get a slight shock because the connection is not a perfect short.
2. The handles must not be insulated.
Since the former is a no-no (according the manual) and the latter is untrue, then..... I don't know what to say.
Sorry Dell (and I understand quite clearly that you are not the designer) but it does appear to be "crap" after all.

[Qiaozhi]

[quote=Seeker]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Seeker:

I use a simple tape record motor, think is 3,000 rpm

Hi,Esteban, do you place on axis of motor some eccentric mass to get vibration or there is normal motor self vibration?
In 3000rpm you have giroscopic moment exept vibration,that will move your hand and turn the rod.This is "motor effect"
To get purely vibration I think to use little speaker(piezo) and 555, and I can change frequency and amplitude of vibration.

Hi Seeker,
If you look closely at Esteban's drawing, you will notice that the motor is in a vertical position. In this case the device can be moved quite easily from side-to-side without feeling the gyroscopic effect. Of course, if you tilt the rods away from the vertical, then they would feel some resistance. So the important point here is that the motor must be vertical and not horizontal, otherwise your statement would be true.

[Seeker]

Hi Qiaozhi,you are not right.
Exact the vertical position of axis is the best position for act of giroscopic moment.Becouse the rod is not balansed if you little turn hand ,giro reaction will turn at 90 degrees direction and axis will divert and center of mass of rod will turn rod left or right.