A patent to detect substances by infrared like Esteban used.

[Carl-NC]

There are some "tells" in this patent. Can anyone find them?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

There are some "tells" in this patent. Can anyone find them?

"tells"?
It seems to me they are more than "tells". They tell the whole story of what is being patented:

1. To start with, "other publications" and "prior art" shown in this patent come from a background of using spectroscopic methods to measure unknown materials with an emphasis on detecting bio-hazard gasses and explosives. The material being identified is either in the air, or placed in a testing location for a sample to be measured. Samples to be tested include gasses in the air and solid objects.

2. The claims in the patent tell a lot about what his idea is. His claims begin with three well known laser methods using tunable lasers, absorption spectroscopy, and triangulation, then incorporate a new method to transmit data from the sample target material. He is claiming rights to incorporate a tube located in his apparatus containing an 820nm laser to ionize oxygen to create a plasma that can be used in sending the signal to be collected and processed in a digitizer. The data collected from the target is digitized and combined with a separate signal returned from the target, then both signals are processed digitally to determine distance and identify the substance the laser spot is focused on using spectrometry methods.

3. The operating description at the bottom gives the final "tells".
The invention he patented is able to tell the distance of a target in the path of a laser by using triangulation methods that require two sensors to perform the triangulation. One case allows triangulation by a single sensor as long as a second sensing location separated by some distance is multiplexed into the light sensor. He even gives the schematics used for using a PIN diode or a phototransistor.

In his claims, the inventor specifies that:
A. An IR laser beam is AM modulated at about 100 KHz and held on the target in the line of sight of the beam in order to energize the sample to be identified. An additional "tell" is the author of the patent says other sources such as sunlight will also energize the target. This points us in the direction of photoacoustic spectroscopy, which he is already including in his methodology for this patent application.
B. The returned signal received from one or more light sensors is digitized and sent to a signal processor that compares the two return paths to extract the distance from triangulation data. It then finds the spectral peaks by using a fast Fourier transform and compares them digitally to known spectral signatures in order to see if a match is found for a known substance.
C. 820 nm laser-ionized oxygen is a feature of his claims that is used as an intermediate chemical in producing a signal that results in data found at the sample being identified.

Those are the "tells" I found in the patent. I didn't see any part about using an IR LED pulsed in the air with a 400 Hz square wave or an FM radio held near the power supply as an audio receiver to determine the spectral analysis or distance of the target material. Should we tell the inventor there is an easier way to determine what material he found at a distance?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Carl-NC]

You mention a few of the tells I noticed, but there's one that stands out:

"the ionization means is an optical radiation source, such as an IR laser beam source."

Infrared is not a frequency band that will ionize. Any jr level patent examiner should have noticed this and said, "Uh, wait a second... do you actually know what you are talking about?"

- Carl

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

You mention a few of the tells I noticed, but there's one that stands out:

"the ionization means is an optical radiation source, such as an IR laser beam source."

Infrared is not a frequency band that will ionize. Any jr level patent examiner should have noticed this and said, "Uh, wait a second... do you actually know what you are talking about?"

- Carl

Yes, of course.
We cannot expect IR will ionize the target material. It would take a higher energy such as exposing the target to a radioactive source, or other ionizing radiation. This is what raises some curiosity about his "ionized oxygen" container, which he calls the "intermediate" ionized plasma that communicates with the target material. I was wondering if it ever worked in practice. Actually I haven't ever seen any evidence of this method being used in the years since this patent was issued.

I still wonder ... "does it work?"

I suppose if it did work, there are governments all over the world that would want to use it to identify contraband and to locate explosives, as well as finding where there are dangerous bio-hazard fumes in the air. This is a multi-billion dollar industry. A little checking will show that the inventor John Nutting is the owner of a small business with less than 4 employees, and does not appear to have become rich from producing his locator for the industries that desperately need what he claims it does.

Oh well. Maybe he should have tried the method of an LED pulsed at 400 Hz with an FM radio held close to hear and identify materials from a distance. This would have made him successful, right?

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

Just comming!

Dr. Bests Ultimate BIO LRL pistol withOO remote coil.

Last solution in Bio LRL approach.

By high disturbances you can simply RESET it.

Two way detecting jewerly up to 50m. One way unlimited (honestly to say limited only by curved Earth surface).

Gold can be easily traced on the Month or Mars.

Very extra sensitive, as you can evidently see on promotional paper.

Can not be reverse engineered.

Speaking version in development.

Details in person at 09090 609 522.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

"the ionization means is an optical radiation source, such as an IR laser beam source."

Infrared is not a frequency band that will ionize. Any jr level patent examiner should have noticed this and said, "Uh, wait a second... do you actually know what you are talking about?"

- Carl

This is not exactly what he is stating in the patent.

What he is claiming is that trough resonance, an IR laser beam can be used to develop wave packets that undergo non destructive molecular resonance producing a characteristic electrical field.

Experiments already have been performed employing extreme short pulses to ionize Helium according to the phase of IR and of the pulses. When this is done, by resonance, an excitation state is reached and packets of electron waves are developed. These pulses are extremely short, in the femto to atto seconds range, I believe.

Then this electrical signal response is detected by the IR sensor which is tuned to the same EM band as the intermediate chemical, in this case, oxygen or nitrogen.

By a related process in the optical realm , in the 'cameras see gold' thread over Tnet I told you about the IR release from the earth's surface in the cooling process which interacts with tellurics and its magnetic fields. These yields 'optical' activity in the IR band that can be seen trough a IR filter attached to a camera and enhanced with the algorithms of some photo editors.

[Geo]

Originally Posted by WM6

Just comming!

Dr. Bests Ultimate BIO LRL pistol withOO remote coil.

Last solution in Bio LRL approach.

By high disturbances you can simply RESET it.

Two way detecting jewerly up to 50m. One way unlimited (honestly to say limited only by curved Earth surface).

Gold can be easily traced on the Month or Mars.

Very extra sensitive, as you can evidently see on promotional paper.

Can not be reverse engineered.

Speaking version in development.

Details in person at 09090 609 522.

So, when i say that LRL works, you don't believe me

Press Reset
I think that Bio LRLs are better than simple LRL

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Geo

So, when i say that LRL works, you don't believe me

Press Reset
I think that Bio LRLs are better than simple LRL

I believe Geo, I am avare in LRL for sure, but only in dr. Best LRL-s, not in comic mineoro creations.

You must try dr. Best design once, I am now awaiting speaking version of dr. Best BIO pistols with Reset and memory reader.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Esteban,
Are you defining the "phenomenon" you refer to as "clouds" that are produced in the air around long-time buried metals?

Best wishes,
J_P

Around the good conductive item buried for long time are a kind of "cloud", but this "cloud" seems an electrical/magnetic field. In the air? Don't know. But around the buried item. When you dig the item you can't detect out anymore. While buried for several years, the "thing" that accompanies it "helps" the detection. Is the secondary effect, not only the metal per se. Ferrous terrain mask also this detection.

Last discovery made by an owner of pistol. On its field test was a sheet of newspaper (colour and B&W) and this masked the detection at distance. Seems that the compounds of different inks are a problem. But, of course, luckily, you not going to go around with newspaper scattered.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

You mention a few of the tells I noticed, but there's one that stands out:

"the ionization means is an optical radiation source, such as an IR laser beam source."

Infrared is not a frequency band that will ionize. Any jr level patent examiner should have noticed this and said, "Uh, wait a second... do you actually know what you are talking about?"

- Carl

I noticed that when a metallic object good conductor of heat and electricity are exposed to strong heat of the sun on a good day, this is detectable outside. Seems that emits "something" that is easily detectable. This happened in a place where spent a tractor to repair a road. The detection was very good. Then I found on the sand, outside, 1/4 silver coin.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Esteban

... a sheet of newspaper (colour and B&W) and this masked the detection at distance. Seems that the compounds of different inks are a problem.

Astral constelations are problem, newspaper inks are problem, indigestions are problem, only non-working LRL creations are not problem.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by hung

What he is claiming is that trough resonance, an IR laser beam can be used to develop wave packets that undergo non destructive molecular resonance producing a characteristic electrical field.

These yields 'optical' activity in the IR band that can be seen trough a IR filter attached to a camera and enhanced with the algorithms of some photo editors.

I assume you meant to say "through" and not "trough". A trough is something that farmers used to feed animals ... but maybe "trough resonance" could makes sense, if it was filled with water. Although I'm not sure if any wave packets would undergo non destructive molecular resonance producing a characteristic electrical field.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Around the good conductive item buried for long time are a kind of "cloud", but this "cloud" seems an electrical/magnetic field. In the air? Don't know. But around the buried item. When you dig the item you can't detect out anymore. While buried for several years, the "thing" that accompanies it "helps" the detection. Is the secondary effect, not only the metal per se. Ferrous terrain mask also this detection.

Last discovery made by an owner of pistol. On its field test was a sheet of newspaper (colour and B&W) and this masked the detection at distance. Seems that the compounds of different inks are a problem. But, of course, luckily, you not going to go around with newspaper scattered.

Hi Esteban,
Currently, your definition of what you call the "phenomenon" is not known to be made of ions, or to be in the air.
It is only known to be a "cloud" that seems an electrical/magnetic field around a buried item. Is this correct?

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Esteban

when a metallic object good conductor of heat and electricity are exposed to strong heat of the sun on a good day, this is detectable outside. Seems that emits "something"

This fact (thermionic emission) has already been used in the operation of electronic vacuum tubes (valves). Detecting is question of sensor vicinity and potential-energy barrier. Here can be more promising UV Scanner than IR LRL beamer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermionic_emission

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Esteban,
Currently, your definition of what you call the "phenomenon" is not known to be made of ions, or to be in the air.
It is only known to be a "cloud" that seems an electrical/magnetic field around a buried item. Is this correct?

Best wishes,
J_P

This I think. But, can the migration (or micro-migration) of metalic particles and chemist action with soil contributes with it? Can be this a sort of ionic exchange?

[ivconic]

To Esteban and Hung;

now...i am following your explanations and one thing still not clear to me.

When you say that there is certain "echo" (or "distortion") phenomena around long time buried item , i am wandering does that phenomena come out from soil and it is detectable on soil surface.....OR
it is not coming out of soil, it stays in soil, respective to item size .
To make this question more clear, i draw simpified sketch to explain my question.
Sketch is presenting 1 gold coin at 1 meter depth in soil.
So...there is "echo" arround coin respective to coin size.
Case "A" is more logic to me (refering phenomena propagations) and if you agree on that than IR device SHOULD "penetrate" for 80cm's in soil to detect edge of phenomena. Right?
Case "B" is not so logic to me (refering phenomena propagations) and if you CLAIM this was the case than it is to expect IR device to detect phenomena on soil surface.

So...my question here is related to propagation of that phenomena ("echo", "hallo", "distortion"...);
What should be your explanation of phenomena propagation; case A or case B?
...
Because in many of your previous posts we could see claims about single coin detection at long distances (10,20,30 and more meters) and at high depths (1,2,3 and more meters).

So...if you were able to detect single coin at 1 meter depth than we have here two possible explanations;

1) LRL device can only detect phenomena on soil surface and it is propagated as on case B,

2) LRL device can detect phenomena IN soil no matter how wide and long phenomena was propagated arround buried coin. Case A.

So...i would like you to answer those questons a to explain your seeing of phenomena propagations..

Thanks in advance,
Regards!

[ivconic]

"...Case "B" is not so logic to me (refering phenomena propagations) and if you CLAIM this was the case than it is to expect IR device to detect phenomena on soil surface..."

It is not logic to me because i will rather support theory of phenomena propagation showed in case A.

It is more logic to expect phenomena propagation arround item to be concentric, and if we take this as ultimate TRUTH than single coin at 1 meter depth can "produce" phenomena ONLY IN LIMITED range...few cm's arround item surface and it can NOT REACH soil surface - no way! So further, if this is TRUE than your LRL MUST "penetrate" soil for 80cm's to detect edge of phenomena...
Agree?

[ivconic]

I also experienced existence of "phenomena" many times on real soils (sketch below). I can not explain what is going on, but , for example:
i detected coin at certain depth in soil. Than when dug and recovered, it can be detected in air barely to 2/3 of previous depth in soil.

But it is hard to beleive that such small item like single coin, buried at such large depth as 1 meter, can produce so strong phenomena to reach coil surface and become detectable on soil surface! You see my point?

So if this was true; than my conclusion is that your LRL device simply MUST be able to PENETRATE soil to some depths...
Right?

Either that....either i can conclude that all previous claims about single coin detection at large depths were LIES...

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Esteban

This I think. But, can the migration (or micro-migration) of metalic particles and chemist action with soil contributes with it? Can be this a sort of ionic exchange?

I don't know.
I have never detected what you call the "phenomenon". The anomalies I know of where there are buried metals take different forms depending on the metal and the soil it is in as well as a few other influences. These anomalies can be measured with a number of different instruments. But I never saw any instrument shaped like a pistol with a large coil or a zahori detect soil with buried metal from a distance to the side more than about a half meter.

Of course, there is chemical action that releases metal ions from the metal surface if buried metal is corroding. But I have no way to know if this contributes to the phenomenon that you claim to detect at a distance from the side. Maybe if I knew exactly what electrical property of the "Phenomenon cloud" area you are detecting, I could provide some clue.

Best wishes,
J_P

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

all previous claims about single coin detection at large depths were LIES...

What else? Quasi-scientific LIES are bestseller, not comic LRL creations.

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by J_Player

I don't know.
I have never detected what you call the "phenomenon". The anomalies I know of where there are buried metals take different forms depending on the metal and the soil it is in as well as a few other influences. These anomalies can be measured with a number of different instruments. But I never saw any instrument shaped like a pistol with a large coil or a zahori detect soil with buried metal from a distance to the side more than about a half meter.

If course, there is chemical action that releases metal ions from the surface of corroding buried metal. But I have no way to know if this contributes to the phenomenon that you claim to detect at a distance from the side. Maybe if I knew exactly what electrical property of the "Phenomenon cloud" area you are detecting, I could provide some clue.



...

And yes; also type of metal can affect speed of phenomena evolving. I am talking mostly about coins made from bronze here.
And i guess your coins were made mostly from nickel...
Best wishes,
J_P

I do beleive you on that. You never detected it...and i did many times. What's the differences?
I presume difference is in time; for how long item was buried in soil.
You live in USA? Right?
So, usuall coins you can detect there in soil are not older than 200-300 years.
I live in Europe, and usuall coins that i can detect on sites i've been visiting are for 1500-2000 years buried in soil, here.
So i guess; differences are in period of time that coins were buried in soil.
I presume that phenomena can not evolve in short period of time.. only logical explanation.

And yes; could be also dependable on type of metal too! Alloy! I am talking mostly about coins made from bronze here. And i guess you are talking mostly about nickels...

Regards!

[ivconic]

Or...maybe there i NOT any kind of phenomena we are talking about here?
Than how to explain my experiences? (posted previously)

....
Maybe...just maybe in cases when coin was detected at certain depth and later recovered couldn't be detected in air at more than 2/3 of previous depth; maybe in those cases where some "special" and beneficial chemical and electronical conditions in soil arround coin that improved EM field from search coil to propagate better?
If so than what would be those beneficial conditions?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by ivconic

I do beleive you on that. You never detected it...and i did many times. What's the differences?
I presume difference is in time; for how long item was buried in soil.
You live in USA? Right?
So, usuall coins you can detect there in soil are not older than 200-300 years.
I live in Europe, and usuall coins that i can detect on sites i've been visiting are for 1500-2000 years buried in soil, here.
So i guess; differences are in period of time that coins were buried in soil.
I presume that phenomena can not evolve in short period of time.. only logical explanation.

And yes; could be also dependable on type of metal too! Alloy! I am talking mostly about coins made from bronze here. And i guess you are talking mostly about nickels...

Regards!

Nickels in the USA are made from stainless steel.
But I am talking about any metal. If the metal is corroding, then it is releasing ions by definition. Corrosion is an ionic chemical process. Even stainless steel corrodes to some small degree. I can show you about 5 pounds of stainless steel knives and forks I dug that are corroded enough to have holes through them. But it all depends on the soil and how long they were corroding. Much faster corrosion happens to copper and zinc based metals, while gold is one of the slowest. But the release of ions from metal surface is not limited to coins. It also happens with buried pipes, lost jewelry and metal buttons and ornaments and other metal trash, as well as natural metal deposits and ores.

Maybe you didn't understand me about what I didn't detect. I have detected buried metals using a metal detector that was held above the buried metal, that seemed to have an unusually strong signal which returned to the normal expected signal after I dug them. This only happened a couple of times.

What I did not see is any pistol type detector or zahori type pistol detect what Esteban describes as the "phenomenon" around a buried metal from more than about a half meter distance measured from the side of where the supposed "phenomenon" is. In fact I don't know exactly what a "phenomenon cloud" is other than what Esteban described as being a cloud area around a buried metal that seems to be electric/magnetic that could be in the air or ground or both... not known for sure. With that definition, I can't determine what it is.

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

J Player:

"...Maybe if I knew exactly what electrical property of the "Phenomenon cloud" area you are detecting, I could provide some clue..."

Exactly!
Truth is; WE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN that phenomenon...

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by ivconic

I also experienced existence of "phenomena" many times on real soils (sketch below). I can not explain what is going on, but , for example:
i detected coin at certain depth in soil. Than when dug and recovered, it can be detected in air barely to 2/3 of previous depth in soil.

But it is hard to beleive that such small item like single coin, buried at such large depth as 1 meter, can produce so strong phenomena to reach coil surface and become detectable on soil surface! You see my point?

So if this was true; than my conclusion is that your LRL device simply MUST be able to PENETRATE soil to some depths...
Right?

Either that....either i can conclude that all previous claims about single coin detection at large depths were LIES...

I explain millions times. When you put oscillator near item, also you're killed the phenomenon. So, common MD can't show extreme difference only 1/3 more... But pistol is not an aggression to the environment. Also coil of common MD is more near to soil, so this robs the sensitivity. How can you speak of are lies if you do not have experience in this?