Real clone Alonso-PD

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Fred

Thanks Andreas for sharing and posting this information, and continuing with constructive elements and experiments.
This is finally neutral and technical information, whatever are the results they will be useful and interesting.

Yes, I agree. This detection of a small magnet at 2m is intriguing, and a video showing this in operation would be most interesting.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Geo

Hi Qiaozhi.
Look the thread "STRANGE..." at RS forum

Thanks Geo, It looks like this might be the same device. If Andreas can post some information, we should be able to check.

[Geo]

It is TR950D by Cscope.

[nelson]

Congratulations Andreas for this new project
I hope you can find how this realy works.
Best regards
Nelson

Originally Posted by ANDREAS

Hi all and Happy new year
Many members knows few years ago i build a clone Alonso-PD
This old "amateur clone" i use many-many mods for find the best balance between all stage.
But is not enough for me. Last months i start again experiments. My "target is... I try work with the same method use by Alonso for calibration omega-coils and feritte all together with standard schematic publish here from qiaozhi without any extras.
I find this method and i build a "real alonso-PD clone" with all parts.
My prototype now can detect a very-very small magnet-piece 2 meters distance very easy and a micro transmitter 433MHZ more than 50 meters distance.
My clone has not false signals from South-north magnetics lines and with calibration knob i can calibrate machine very easy in search-area
In my test-area work perfect, but i need make tests with unknown area and ofcourse video's with unknown targets
This knob for calibration and very small mods (low-bat section, power supply section) are the only extra's
The truth is that the calibration is too difficult and now i understand why there were failures to construct a truly clone
Here some pics my prototype
Heltkit section and feritte section work together without extra selection switch. Output signal from feritte coils is very-very low and feritte section now, work without overload signal.
Next days if i have free time i publish here more infos and i start video's with prototype
I want to thank a forum member here ( very good electronic engeneer ) , because, with his help and testing , I managed to find all the problems encountered
best regards

[ANDREAS]

Full schematic without transmitter (later i publish transmitter sch+pcb)
As you can see ,this is original schematic publish by Qiaozhi with very small modifications
regards

[Funfinder]

All this tinkering, discovering, helping together here concerning electronical issues is ok.

As long as the info doesn't leads us "real results wanting" persons away from the serious track. I self built and tested one of those Zahori circuits which mainly are based on electrostatic so afterwards I knew with this stuff you can find electricity lines or rubbed air-ballons from a good distance but no treasures.

I like tinkering but it was still a waste of time and ressources - just because some people here suggested this "could work".


And the same it might be with the ToTeM or the Alonso Clone....

btw. I am not a "skeptic" which condemns everything completly. First some persons here thought I would be a LRL-believer and now some may think I am a skeptic. I am also nothing in the middle, I am a realist who controls everything exactly, compares how much truth a story really could contain and I work with very fair warrants.

This world or better the own personal life will always be full of decisions and judgments of what it is good for me or others and whats not. It is not just to make their lifes hard if doctors, judges or even politicians have to study first. Complex and sophisticated things need alot background- or special-knowledge otherwise people will fail with good work or correct results.


Shure, I could start to experiment with those circuits, too, but why I should find out completly the same as we know already?
And what we know is not really convincing if it comes to real treasure-hunting.

If we see the whole thing as a development-process then it's useless to test the same stuff over and over again. But the motivation to contribute to this kind of "not really promising stuff" would return if there should popup really promising results.


Do you know what is CW? It is "continuous wave". Do you know SSB? Its Single Side Band.
Why do I ask? Because with special ham amateur radio transceivers you can hear ultrashort bandwidths of just a few Hertz thousands miles away.

It is no big deal to create ultra-sensitive detectors - its pretty simple today.
But those must work for the intended purpose.


This micro-adjustment stuff shows already clearly that we have a very ultra-sensitive receiver of some sort. And of course ultra-sensitive detectors react on minimal EM-field chances, be it a magnet or a 1.5v spark 5 meters away.

Just the question is:
For what it is really ultra-sensitive and under what stability conditions?

This here is a forum about metal detection an not radio-station-LRL-detection.
It is not about the Hubble telescope which is ultra-sensitive for super far away stars.

So the question is: How useful is this kind of supersensitive-detector for metal?
For metal buried under ground, otherwise we may find it with some field-glasses, too.

Or in other words:
Its wasted time to experiment with ultra sensitive radio-receivers if those are not good for metal-detection.

I'm pretty shure the ToTeM or Alonso is some kind of BFO which only reacts on metal or magnets because the coil-activity or inductivity is extremly very slightly changing (on a level of just a part of 1 Hz, it could be even just the shape of the wave-form which gets slightly disturbed or interrupted for some time), even passivly if a huge metal object already interacts with some long-wave frequency. Thats also the reason why those both coils have to be so extremly well adjusted.
To make it more clearly:

Those kinds of detectors may listen at the 50.000 Hz area but they could see the difference of 50.000,012 and 50.000,025 Hz at a certain frequency (the 50KHz was just an example).

btw. first it would be really important if you know on what kind of detection-principle this stuff is based before you experiment with it. I guess I gave you now the answer, so you know with what kind of supersensitive detection circuit you are dealing and now you can find a way to modify it until it's really useful for treasure-detection.


Perhaps it would be better to start with ultra-sensitive BFOs directly - making "tabula rasa" (clear table) and not messing with such "pre-ready-made" circuits which contain alots of disturbing and unneeded content.

And if you need a handholdable metal-detector better buy a Garrett Ace 250 including snipercoil an mount both on a just 30cm long pole.

As long as those "longer range detection" doesn't work reliable and on a clear level concerning on what kind of influence it really reacts, this 2in1 circuit is just hindering important improvements.

You also should input the schematics into some circuit simulating software so you may see under which kind of EM-influence the coils etc. will react on what level or intensity.


Or do we wanna have this whole riddle-guessing going on and on for years and years?


For the moment all those ToTeM-, Alonso- or PDK detectors seems to me like bad AM-Radios which will receive all kind of household-disturbances, too, because they are not shielded and designed the right way for only receiving what they should receive or detect!

But perhaps you're already on the right track and by clearing things up and improving stuff on the right area we finally get some reliable "more distance metal detection".

And without the possibility of receiving intense and highly directional buried metal signals - without radio-activity almost impossible, especially if those targets are very small - some kind of highly sensitive or for a certain area specialized detector would be an absolutly must!

[Dell Winders]

Funfinder, I agree with your assessment. As a Professional Treasure Hunter/Salvor When I first started testing and encouraging development of Frequency Discrimination methods in 1980 there was adequate hobbyist metal detectors on the market that would detect coins & jewelry at shallow depths. Not much was available for the Professional Treasure Hunter,or Salvor, so we would make modifications, or try to come up with innovative solutions of our own. This is when the Frequency Discrimination from a distance to detect deep buried Treasure Trove was born and implemented.

My interests is in detecting large Treasure Troves buried deep underground or under water where conventional Metal detectors lack the depth penetration to reach the targets I am seeking. Although technologically primitive by today's standards, the first MFD's I used throughout the 1980's were fully electronic, both transmit & receive. I was fortunate to have enough inventors interested to provide me models to Field, and comparison test. My intent and purpose for Frequency Discrimination was never for detecting small ,shallow depth targets, it never has been, and is not now. So I have no pony in this race for LRL shallow depth detection except to point out the Skeptic Con game the owners of this forum are playing on it's contributors and viewers.

I applaud those who are making an effort to discover, and share with others a viable method to make a workable, shallow depth, discriminating LRL, that has universal appeal to hobby metal detectorist. It's a huge market, but will not be won without a fight from those with a vested interest in the lucrative Metal Detector industry

It is understandable that those EE's & Techs embedded in the system that earn a substantial income from the hobbyist Metal detector industry would be concerned about the increased interest and growth of a concept they don't understand in a competing industry.

With all best wishes, Dell

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

It is understandable that those EE's & Techs embedded in the system that earn a substantial income from the hobbyist Metal detector industry would be concerned about the increased interest and growth of a concept they don't understand in a competing industry.

Or vice versa.

[Nicolas]

Hi Andreas you can use this PD without ferrite or change it by transmitter 433Mhz is better. I improve it.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

This is when the Frequency Discrimination from a distance to detect deep buried Treasure Trove was born and implemented.

Build your own MFD using these instructions -> http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/page...mfd1/index.dat
Guaranteed to equal or exceed the performance of any other MFD available.

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

It is understandable that those EE's & Techs embedded in the system that earn a substantial income from the hobbyist Metal detector industry would be concerned about the increased interest and growth of a concept they don't understand in a competing industry.

The fact is, we understand the LRL concept as well as the manufacturers who know what they're doing. The self-deceived LRL sellers ... well, we're way ahead.
In fact, we're so scared that LRLs will take over the market and make conventional metal detectors obsolete, that we operate a website dedicated to LRLs, and even freely publish designs such as the one above.

[Dell Winders]

Yes, I remember very clearly when Carl started that Con, to try to put me out of business. Dell

[Nicolas]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Yes, I remember very clearly when Carl started that Con, to try to put me out of business. Dell

Why ????

[ANDREAS]

Originally Posted by Nicolas

Hi Andreas you can use this PD without ferrite or change it by transmitter 433Mhz is better. I improve it.

Hi Nicolas
No! The bad news is ... I can not present what exactly detecting.
In the original PD the engineer knew very well exactly and they used transmitter. The old engineer (maybe Alonso) don't care, if the receiver is good helthkit, but the whole all in all
I hope if a member can build it, he can understand me well
regards

[ANDREAS]

Here is the best PCB design for clone, bottom and silscreen sides.
regards

[ANDREAS]

For Qiaozhi
This is pic a real clone english-PD.

[Sneshko]

Originally Posted by ANDREAS

Here is the best PCB design for clone, bottom and silscreen sides.
regards

Dear Andreas!
Thank you for sharing with us your effort!
Regards and all the best!
Sneshko

[ANDREAS]

Originally Posted by Sneshko

Dear Andreas!
Thank you for sharing with us your effort!
Regards and all the best!
Sneshko

Sneshko Don't thank me. My gift is only a PCB, because some members here knows all, but they cannot draw a PCB. About schematic has not secrets.. this is classic with small mods. The big problem is that too difficult to configure. In the future I accept thanked by members can make this so difficult regulating . I fervently hope.
regards

[Goldmaxx]

Hello Andreas

Bravo and congratulations to this beautiful project.
I want to learn more about PDs and will try to build your PD project.
As a first project I built the TOTeM PD. Unfortunately I have a little problems with false signals in the north - south direction and contrary the same.
Your clone AlonsoPD will be my second project and hope something more to learn about PDs.
Maybe I can thereby transfer some mods in my TOTeM PD.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

Best Regards
Goldmaxx

[Nicolas]

Originally Posted by ANDREAS

Sneshko Don't thank me. My gift is only a PCB, because some members here knows all, but they cannot draw a PCB. About schematic has not secrets.. this is classic with small mods. The big problem is that too difficult to configure. In the future I accept thanked by members can make this so difficult regulating . I fervently hope.
regards

Hi Andreas

Please check the Two Transistor it's proper?

The Correct: NPN transistors require a positive base signal to energize (forward bias).

[ANDREAS]

Originally Posted by Nicolas

Hi Andreas

Please check the Two Transistor it's proper?

Hi Nikolas
This is correct.
Original PD has D4,D6 diodes 1N4148. I replace with two NPN transistor work "as diode" if unconnect base
With this tip we have more temperature stability , because NPN protection inside plastic case and we have the same result.
R22 use for stability pot
C4 use tantalium. If you have not connect serial + - - + two electrolytic capacitors 22uF
U4 use only 78L05, because Lseries has more power supply out stability
Cx remove.. is not important
Led2 use a hight bright yellow LED is better for this stage
If you have not R6,R6A=680K you can replace 1M

Other tip. If you have note D2,D3=1N60 you can replace with RED LED!!!!!!!
Yes my friend, a poor Red Led (no high bright) work as diode perfect if frequency is < 3MHZ
regards

[Nicolas]

Originally Posted by ANDREAS

Hi Nikolas
This is correct.
Original PD has D4,D6 diodes 1N4148. I replace with two NPN transistor work "as diode" if unconnect base
With this tip we have more temperature stability , because NPN protection inside plastic case and we have the same result.
R22 use for stability pot
C4 use tantalium. If you have not connect serial + - - + two electrolytic capacitors 22uF
U4 use only 78L05, because Lseries has more power supply out stability
Cx remove.. is not important
Led2 use a hight bright yellow LED is better for this stage
If you have not R6,R6A=680K you can replace 1M

Other tip. If you have note D2,D3=1N60 you can replace with RED LED!!!!!!!
Yes my friend, a poor Red Led (no high bright) work as diode perfect if frequency is < 3MHZ
regards

Thank you dear Andreas for this details and tips

We will try to do it if I find the time.

I await your response to my email. Thou hast promised when you return from your trip

[ANDREAS]

Thank you Nicolas
I think today we finish with schematics and PCB
Here is transmitter without modification

[Nicolas]

Originally Posted by ANDREAS

Thank you Nicolas
I think today we finish with schematics and PCB
Here is transmitter without modification

Hi andreas thanks
But I cant understand these connection

J1 = ?
Trans = ?
JF = ?
P1 = Sens= ?

please explain good these connection because I think J1 is supply 18V is not for transmitter

[ANDREAS]

Originally Posted by Nicolas

Hi andreas thanks
But I cant understand these connection

J1 = ?
Trans = ?
JF = ?
P1 = Sens= ?

please explain good these connection because I think J1 is supply 18V is not for transmitter

J1= 2X9V Alkaline
Trans= power supply connector for transmitter
JF = connector feritte - coil
PI= 47K multiturn pontesiometer

[Nicolas]

Originally Posted by ANDREAS

J1= 2X9V Alkaline
Trans= power supply connector for transmitter
JF = connector feritte - coil
PI= 47K multiturn pontesiometer

Hi Andreas
Then J1 in Pcb for transmitter is connect to Trans +9V and not in J1 for supply 18V dc it's for battery.

That is your error. I cant understand the two name for J1. sorry

Thanks