Searching for schematics

[WM6]

I am searching for schematics of this two old but world most successful LRL devices:

First one was most successful LRL device ever.
Second one was second most successful LRL device ever.
I would be very thankful for any hint.

PS: antennas and power supply are missing.

[kt315]

schematics??? you need due repeat the every detail in one-in-one copy. otherwise you will not get working prototype

good luck

[Götz von Berlichingen]

These look like simple mechanical Choppers, designed to generate higher Voltage from Batteries.
Part of simple Electric Fences and old Tube Radios, also popular for "Electrotherapy".
Whats the Source of these Pictures ?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by kt315

otherwise you will not get working prototype

There is no goal to get working prototype - no one LRL was working as claimed. I wish only to re-commercialize such devices for about $7,990 (or better in €).

Originally Posted by Götz von Berlichingen

Whats the Source of these Pictures ?

I got this pictures in confidential from late LRL master, but without schematics.

Suppose that electric fences was not known so far back.

I only know that devices was patented, but which patent - who knows?

[Götz von Berlichingen]

Originally Posted by WM6

There is no goal to get working prototype - no one LRL was working as claimed. I wish only to commercialize such devices for about $7,990.



I got this pictures in confidential from late LRL master, but without schematics.

Suppose that electric fences was not known so far back.

Wikipedia says: "Electric fences were used to control livestock in the United States in the early 1930s".
Of course, Electrotherapy is much older, probably since 1855.
Look here, this looks very much like your "LRL":
http://chss.montclair.edu/~pererat/imquack.htm

So, the left picture is a "W.C. & J. NEFF ELECTRO MAGNETIC MACHINE",
the right is a "DR. S. B. SMITH'S TORPEDO MAGNETIC MACHINE".
Damm, I'm good at google searching, eh ?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Götz von Berlichingen

Of course, Electrotherapy is much older, probably since 1855.
Look here, this looks very much like your "LRL":
http://chss.montclair.edu/~pererat/imquack.htm

Great, problem solved. You say "Torpedo magnetic machine"? It must be fine as LRL. Congratulation.

Thank you. But I still didn't get schematic.

[Qiaozhi]

How about this?
I want one to help stimulate my ideomotor efect.
.
.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

How about this?
I want one.
.

Is this about remote sensing?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by WM6

Is this about remote sensing?

I'm reliably informed that wearing this device for a few minutes every day will transform anyone into a dowsing master. In the interests of science, and keeping an open mind (which it probably will be after using it ) I'm willing to give it a go. Then I can confidently post numerous amounts of pseudo-scientific gobbledygook in the RS Forum, without feeling guilty, and firmly believing that I'm informing ignorant skeptics of the truth.

Or alternatively, I might not bother.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

I'm reliably informed that wearing this device for a few minutes every day will transform anyone into a dowsing master.

Definitely a beautiful design. Perhaps it could work out well in the workplace too?

[Götz von Berlichingen]

Dammit... sometimes it seems like this Forum is about Remote Sensing,
as much as http://www.landoverbaptist.net/?is about Christianity.

[goldfinder]

Very interesing - so how did the high voltage generator get used as an long range metal (gold) detector. It seems the high voltage circuit was only part of the total system. The unknown old parts have been identified as a high voltage generator. So did the doctor tell you how to use it as an LRL??

BTW - my wife has one of those electreat devices. She used it to restore badly burned hand back to normal condition. She has used the the Electreat for many other nerve maladies and it does restore normal nerve conditions. The Russians did extensive testing of using high voltage low current in many medical situations and found that the HV does help restore and heal the body. The American drug cartel has been very effective in keeping many very good alternative treatments off the market in favor of using high priced drugs to cause more problems than they help.
Goldfinder

[Götz von Berlichingen]

Originally Posted by goldfinder

...The American drug cartel has been very effective in keeping many very good alternative treatments off the market in favor of using high priced drugs to cause more problems than they help.
Goldfinder

This is the favorite Conspiracy Theory of Snakeoil Salesmen. OK, in Fact, a TENS might be useful, there is controversy about this Matter.
The same could be said in Metal Detecting - of course, a certain, well known Developer at White's can't be honest, if he says that LRLs are not working.
(in fact, he wrote LRL Reports when he was not yet working at White's)

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by goldfinder

Very interesing - so how did the high voltage generator get used as an long range metal (gold) detector. It seems the high voltage circuit was only part of the total system. The unknown old parts have been identified as a high voltage generator. So did the doctor tell you how to use it as an LRL??

BTW - my wife has one of those electreat devices. She used it to restore badly burned hand back to normal condition. She has used the the Electreat for many other nerve maladies and it does restore normal nerve conditions. The Russians did extensive testing of using high voltage low current in many medical situations and found that the HV does help restore and heal the body. The American drug cartel has been very effective in keeping many very good alternative treatments off the market in favor of using high priced drugs to cause more problems than they help.
Goldfinder

Hi goldfinder,

electreat?
I looked it up, and it seems to have an interesting history, similar to dowsing.

It seems the principle of using high voltage stimulation to treat nerve problems began back in ancient Mesopotamia to treat transient pain. Pain victims were exposed to torpedo fish (electric eels) to numb their nerves where it hurts. Then after batteries were invented, experimenters tried inducing currents under the skin to numb nerves. Up until this time, electricity was used as an anasthetic. But by the middle 1800s people were manufacturing electric stimulators which were claimed to cure all kinds of maladies. It was the beginning of the snake oil era. By 1919 the electreat version was patented by Charles Willie Kent and sold (estimated 250,000 units) for home remedy of a number of ailments. Following passage of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act in 1938, Kent was the first individual prosecuted by the U.S. government for making unsubstantiated medical claims and the Electreat company was then forced to limit their claims to pain relief alone.

Today, the electrical stimulators are still being manufactured and used by private citizens as well as in hospitals. Apparently the medical community considers they have some anasthetic value. But these are also used by alternative medical practitioners which include acupuncturists who sometimes attach electrodes to their acupuncture needles. And home users often swear by the great theraputic results they see from using these electric stimulators. From what I can see, it looks like these electric stimulators have a history which runs parallel to the history of dowsing, and they have a similar controversy today, as they are still being used by small numbers as an alternative to mainstream medical treatments. And we also see similar opposing viewpoints about the medical value of these stimulators.

Sources:
http://www.burtonreport.com/infspine...ostimPartI.htm
http://shop.ebay.com/sis.html?_nkw=A...MEDICAL+DEVICE
http://nolindan.com/lindancollection...ctionmain.html


Best wishes,
J_P

[goldfinder]

The medical use is fine and I believe it has helped my wife and some other people I know - however, this being a alternative aspect of long range detection -

Lets get back to the LRL question of using high voltage for long range metal detection. Are there any of you wizards out there like Esteban, Hung, or ??? who have done anything in this area of research and gotten some kind of indications useful for detection ?

We live in an electric universe and metals certainly play a strong role in various electric phenomena. ???

Goldfinder

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by goldfinder

The medical use is fine and I believe it has helped my wife and some other people I know - however, this being a alternative aspect of long range detection -

Lets get back to the LRL question of using high voltage for long range metal detection. Are there any of you wizards out there like Esteban, Hung, or ??? who have done anything in this area of research and gotten some kind of indications useful for detection ?

We live in an electric universe and metals certainly play a strong role in various electric phenomena. ???

Goldfinder

Hi goldfinder,

Here are two examples of high voltage used for metal detection:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...55&postcount=7
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...54&postcount=5


Best wishes,
J_P

[goldfinder]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi goldfinder,

Here are two examples of high voltage used for metal detection:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...55&postcount=7
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...54&postcount=5


Best wishes,
J_P

Thanks for good wishes, same to you JP,
Looks like some kind of ionization around metal in ground using high voltage. Probably not too good for land mine detection as most of the new ones have very little metal. However, the HV might set off the land mine.

So how does the ionization around metal that is induced by HV in ground get detected???

Another embarrassing question I suppose.
Goldfinder

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by goldfinder

Thanks for good wishes, same to you JP,
Looks like some kind of ionization around metal in ground using high voltage. Probably not too good for land mine detection as most of the new ones have very little metal. However, the HV might set off the land mine.

So how does the ionization around metal that is induced by HV in ground get detected???

Another embarrassing question I suppose.
Goldfinder

In the example of using high voltge from a truck to detect landmines it is expected that the landmine or other UXO may explode. This is the reason why a video camera and HV electrode is mounted on a boom, while the operators are in the back of the truck operating the equipment behind armour. While this method could have questionable value with nonmetallic landmines, we don't usually hunt for nonmetallic gold or silver, so it could be more suitable for that purpose if it actually works like the inventor says.

When you induce ionization around metal using a Tesla coil, you will see visual evidence called streamers and arcs. You can also sometimes hear a crackling noise. In some conditions you can even see a glowing related to corona discharge. But for most treasure hunting scenarios, I would rely on the streamers, arcs and crackling noise to indicate metal is close to the HV electrode.
Of course, this is all predicated on a presumption that this patent actually works in practice.

I also read an account of an LRL experimenter who built an LRL that had a Tesla coil in it as part of the antenna. As it turned out, this was not a high voltage Tesla coil. It was a spiral wound coil, which happened to be patented by Tesla as a method to add capacitance to a coil by the method of winding it. It operated at the antenna voltage without inducing any significant high voltage. It appeared to be a coupling coil used for impedance matching. I also saw where Esteban and a couple of others wound spiral coils in the antennas of their LRLs (also not high voltage). But Esteban did once report a high voltage LRL pistol he once built. As near as I can remember, it used a TV flyback transformer. He said something about taking precautions so he wouldn't get a shock. As I recall, he found marginal use from this detector, and moved on with other experimental pistols which used LEDs and VLF coils or AF coils for treasure hunting. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=45


Best wishes,
J_P

[goldfinder]

As usual your analysis is quite good JP.

The big problem w/ arcs and sparks is they don't necessarily have to go to metal - anything conductive would work like damp soil that has enough ionic activity to do some conduction.

One thing that may be fruitful is to have a high voltage probe like regular metal detectors use a coil. The voltage would not have to be high enough to do arcing. Then monitor the HV probe field for anomalies. Conductive metal in the ground would tend to distort the probe field. Might even be special distortions relative to different types of metal.
Goldfinder

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by goldfinder

As usual your analysis is quite good JP.

The big problem w/ arcs and sparks is they don't necessarily have to go to metal - anything conductive would work like damp soil that has enough ionic activity to do some conduction.

One thing that may be fruitful is to have a high voltage probe like regular metal detectors use a coil. The voltage would not have to be high enough to do arcing. Then monitor the HV probe field for anomalies. Conductive metal in the ground would tend to distort the probe field. Might even be special distortions relative to different types of metal.
Goldfinder

Hi goldfinder,

You are correct, the arc does not have to go to the metal. Looking at the state of advancement for LRLs today, I would think any detection at all is better than what we have come to expect. In the case of high voltage, we may get some false sparking that locates hot rocks, or mineralized areas. And we may get some sparks that locate metal and even gold. This might be a welcome amount of false signals as long as we got a hit or two on gold each day. Also, we might find there are better times to use this method of locating things, such as when it is not a rainy season, and the ground is relatively dry to raise its resistivity. When the ground is in this condition, we may find that ground which has metal buried in it has more conductive dirt above the buried metal due to corroded metal ions. If we find this ground has noticably different resistivity due to metalic ion activity, then maybe the sparks will favor discharging at this location, and mark out a place to dig, even though the sparks were not sparking onto buried metal. In an ideal ionic condition, we would welcome a cylinder of heavily ionized dirt which formed a conductive pipe directly down to the buried metal.

Others have done experiments in this area. A theory has been speculated that this is the principle that electrostatic detectors use to locate more conductive areas of ground which are expected to produce an area of less strongly charged air above the ground, which we would detect with the electric charge detector. If this is how they work, then they are not detecting gold, but anomalies in the air charge that could be related to a location of buried gold, or to something else, such as somebody dumped a bucket of water in the dirt an hour ago.

Someone once did some experiments along the lines we are talking, but not with high voltage.
It was more along the lines of frequency generators/MFD stuff.
It is interesting to read what he reported: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6663

"...You can take various loop antennas and sweep them in frequency and measure the power in the loop and watch it change linearly in the presence of various metals, but never showing a peak or dip at any specific frequency..."

That sounded interesting to me. While he disclaims MFD working in other parts of his post, he reported something that could maybe exploited in some way. It is interesting to note he pretty much gave up on MFD LRL detecting. But for a person who is a dowser, he shows some interesting experiments to look into. While he makes the point the ground absorbs power at low frequencies, I wonder what kind of signals you could get to work in the ground. After all, geologists put their probes in the ground to find buried metal or ores with induced polarization and resistivity studies. From what I recall, they have had success with spectral induced polarization, which may be approaching closer to what people are claiming works in MFD field trials.

In any case, I will believe MFD recoveries after I see them work reliably, not from reading stories.


Best wishes,
J_P

[Melbeta]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi goldfinder,

electreat?
I looked it up, and it seems to have an interesting history, similar to dowsing.

It seems the principle of using high voltage stimulation to treat nerve problems began back in ancient Mesopotamia to treat transient pain. Pain victims were exposed to torpedo fish (electric eels) to numb their nerves where it hurts. Then after batteries were invented, experimenters tried inducing currents under the skin to numb nerves. Up until this time, electricity was used as an anasthetic. But by the middle 1800s people were manufacturing electric stimulators which were claimed to cure all kinds of maladies. It was the beginning of the snake oil era. By 1919 the electreat version was patented by Charles Willie Kent and sold (estimated 250,000 units) for home remedy of a number of ailments. Following passage of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act in 1938, Kent was the first individual prosecuted by the U.S. government for making unsubstantiated medical claims and the Electreat company was then forced to limit their claims to pain relief alone.

Today, the electrical stimulators are still being manufactured and used by private citizens as well as in hospitals. Apparently the medical community considers they have some anasthetic value. But these are also used by alternative medical practitioners which include acupuncturists who sometimes attach electrodes to their acupuncture needles. And home users often swear by the great theraputic results they see from using these electric stimulators. From what I can see, it looks like these electric stimulators have a history which runs parallel to the history of dowsing, and they have a similar controversy today, as they are still being used by small numbers as an alternative to mainstream medical treatments. And we also see similar opposing viewpoints about the medical value of these stimulators.

Sources:
http://www.burtonreport.com/infspine...ostimPartI.htm
http://shop.ebay.com/sis.html?_nkw=A...MEDICAL+DEVICE
http://nolindan.com/lindancollection...ctionmain.html


Best wishes,
J_P

Son of a gun, my grandfather used to have that very same machine, I have it now, it has that same black paper box, and I have those same instructions! He had 1943 EverReady batterys in it, they were run down, but for some reason they had not leaked out, so I saved those vintage interesting batterys. Never saw EverReady "D" batterys that had dates on them. He gave it to my mother, and she kept it until she moved into a skilled nursing home, as a memento of her day. So we do not know anything about it, or how he used it, or if it worked or not.
Melbeta