Is earth NMR and dowsing related?

[Tim Williams]

What do you think of earth NMR? We use a proton mag to measure the frequency of H in water. The earths field strength is the reference for the measurement. Just a thought. All frequencies fall in the audio range. Whats do you think.

Tim

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

What do you think of earth NMR? We use a proton mag to measure the frequency of H in water. The earths field strength is the reference for the measurement. Just a thought. All frequencies fall in the audio range. Whats do you think.

Tim

What is your goal Tim? To find forgotten ancient GhostTown in water?

[Tim Williams]

No I wanted to see how long it would take for someone to post a stupid response.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

No I wanted to see how long it would take for someone to post a stupid response.

No one can give you smart response on stupid question.

[Tim Williams]

If you don't know anything about earth NMR then don't post.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

If you don't know anything about earth NMR then don't post.

I was posting to you for mercy and charity, not for Earth NMR, so don't be rude.

[Tim Williams]

I'm sorry WM6. I just asked a question on earth NMR. You asked me if I was looking for treasure in water. The problem is because I use LRL's for some reason that makes me target for attack. There are people on this forum I respect and seek thirr opinion on this subject not smart remarks and personal attacks. If I took your post the wrong way I'm sorry.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

I'm sorry WM6. I just asked a question on earth NMR. You asked me if I was looking for treasure in water. The problem is because I use LRL's for some reason that makes me target for attack. There are people on this forum I respect and seek thirr opinion on this subject not smart remarks and personal attacks. If I took your post the wrong way I'm sorry.

No problem Tim.

I hope someone with knowleadge on matter will give you proper reply.

How do you get frequencies that fall in audio range?

I think that your measuring problem is that your reference (earth magnetic field strenght) is not constant but little changeable during day. This can be key problem of used NMR because the resonance frequency of a particular substance is directly proportional to the strength of the applied magnetic field.

[Tim Williams]

Look here.

http://www.magritek.com/earthsfieldscience.html

[Carl-NC]

Hi Tim,

There are several issues with EFNMR. Consider first the proton mag, which is a practical application of EFNMR. The element used for precession is hydrogen. Why? Because it is easy to precess (is readily polarized) and offers a decent precession signal level for detection. But you still need to put the hydrogen sample (water, or a hydrocarbon) INSIDE a big coil, pulse it with a very strong polarization field, and then listen to it with a very sensitive and low-noise receiver.

What can you do with this? Basically, all you can do is detect variations in the Earth field. Due to what? In a local sense, iron targets which cause variations in the Earth field. In a very large sense, you can map Earth field gradients caused by mineral deposits.

What you can't do is use it to directly detect, say, gold or silver. Neither of these have any effect on Earth field strength. It is feasible that a buried treasure could have an EFNMR signature due to the disturbed soil, similar to what your Geo-logger could pick up on.

Is it possible to use NMR, in some fashion, to detect e.g. gold? OK, let's assume that we can do something similar to a proton mag. We could place a gold sample INSIDE a big coil, pulse it with a very strong polarization field, and then listen to it with a very sensitive and low-noise receiver. Theoretically, the gold should precess at about 37Hz. But what you would likely find is no response. Gold has a NMR receptivity that is over 45dB below that of hydrogen, and the SNR for a proton mag is well below 45dB. So the precession signal for gold will be well below the noise floor.

All that has been discussed is for target samples placed INSIDE a big coil. As you slide the target out of the coil, both the excitation precession and the received signal will quickly drop to zero. That is, when the target is removed from the coil, everything stops working.

It's fun to think that there is a possibility we can transmit a signal and cause a target to "ring" at some characteristic frequency. And proton mags actually do this. But only at distances of 1 inch or so. Medical NMR, with its kilowatt-level excitation coil, can detect at distances up to a foot or so. Can we make a handheld EFNMR locator that detects buried gold a mile away? 100 feet away? 1 foot away? Sorry, ain't happening.

- Carl

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

What do you think of earth NMR? We use a proton mag to measure the frequency of H in water. The earths field strength is the reference for the measurement. Just a thought. All frequencies fall in the audio range. Whats do you think.

Tim

Tim,

Earth Field NMR is used primarily as a teaching tool and in some field applications. However, the SNR is pretty poor and often required a boost field to create an initial spin alignment and thereby improve the SNR.

Having said that, the sample signals are quite small and require that the sample be almost totally surrounded by the sense coil to extract enough signal from the sample to make it suitable for amplification with reasonable SNR.

It is not obvious that the NMR signals involved, or the required boost field can be extrapolated to distances typically involved in dowsing or LRLs and certainly not with a hand held, battery operated device.

[Tim Williams]

I agree I was reading up on EFNMR and found it interesting in that it was possible to use the earths field in that way. Just though I would get some opinions on this subject. I find it funny that some of the frequencies are very close to ones I use myself. Thanks for the input.

Tim

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

I agree I was reading up on EFNMR and found it interesting in that it was possible to use the earths field in that way. Just though I would get some opinions on this subject. I find it funny that some of the frequencies are very close to ones I use myself. Thanks for the input.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Just out of curiosity, if we suppose the earth's field is strong enough to impart a weak precession signal in some material, it would seem the field must be quickly removed in order to measure the precession signal. However, the earth's field fluctuations are very small percentage-wise when measured over short durations that might approach a pulse interval. Because the earth's field is weak to begin with, and because it does not pulse in any large swings of field strength, we can't expect it to cause a measurable signal anywhere near the noise floor.

Let's suppose the coil on a proton precession magnetometer was connected to a circuit that was calibrated to generate a magnetic field that follows the changes in the earth's field over the course of a day, it would seem there would be no signal measurable any time during the day in that proton magnetometer.

Yet we are talking about precession frequencies very close to the ones you use being caused by the earth's field. Am I understanding wrong? Or are we talking about the earth's field causing precession in many elements all over the landscape?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Tim Williams]

J_p for those who dowse like samples give an indication. Also using a generator a sample will cause an indication at different frequencies. I've been doing this sense 1985 and have found different things at different frequencies. Here the earths field changes from day to day not much very little. What I am saying is many of the frequencies are the same or 2hz off from what I fine using ring theory. measuring the radius of the ring around a sample. So from what my data shows for some samples I am very close to EFNMR frequencies using a device to find frequencies for samples. I'm not here to start a debate, just posing a question to those that may know this field of EFNMR. Thanks for all who answered.

Tim

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

J_p for those who dowse like samples give an indication. Also using a generator a sample will cause an indication at different frequencies. I've been doing this sense 1985 and have found different things at different frequencies. Here the earths field changes from day to day not much very little. What I am saying is many of the frequencies are the same or 2hz off from what I fine using ring theory. measuring the radius of the ring around a sample. So from what my data shows for some samples I am very close to EFNMR frequencies using a device to find frequencies for samples. I'm not here to start a debate, just posing a question to those that may know this field of EFNMR. Thanks for all who answered.

Tim

Ok, then without starting a debate, what you are saying is not that the earth field is causing precession in the elements scattered across the landscape.

As I understand it you are saying is you can set up a signal generator adjusted close to the frequencies that the elements would precess in a strong enough magnetic field. And when sending (broadcasting) this signal to a field where you dowse, you find a dowsing response for different materials which correspond to a precession frequency the signal generator is set to (if the material is present in the field where the signal generator is set up). Is this correct?

Or maybe you were saying the signal generator set near a material's precession frequency could be substituted for the material, and would cause a dowsing response the same as if the material were present?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Theseus]

I don't think we should lose sight of certain facts and reality.

Carl stated it very well- "It's fun to think that there is a possibility we can transmit a signal and cause a target to "ring" at some characteristic frequency. And proton mags actually do this. But only at distances of 1 inch or so. Medical NMR, with its kilowatt-level excitation coil, can detect at distances up to a foot or so. Can we make a handheld EFNMR locator that detects buried gold a mile away? 100 feet away? 1 foot away? Sorry, ain't happening."

[Don Jose de La Mancha]

HI gentlemen: to the point that you are discussing mechanical / electronic indicating devices, you are partially correct. May I ask is there a portable instrument that measures the physical movement of an object subjected to the Lunar, or other interplanitary force?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to LIve, not live to exist".

[Tim Williams]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Ok, then without starting a debate, what you are saying is not that the earth field is causing precession in the elements scattered across the landscape.

As I understand it you are saying is you can set up a signal generator adjusted close to the frequencies that the elements would precess in a strong enough magnetic field. And when sending (broadcasting) this signal to a field where you dowse, you find a dowsing response for different materials which correspond to a precession frequency the signal generator is set to (if the material is present in the field where the signal generator is set up). Is this correct?

Or maybe you were saying the signal generator set near a material's precession frequency could be substituted for the material, and would cause a dowsing response the same as if the material were present?

Best wishes,
J_P

OK the generator sets up a like field as the element you are searching for. This is nothing new. If any targets are in the field a pattern of lines and rings like a pattern. Looks like patterns on metal of it is vibrated water or sand whatever will display according to the vibration frequency.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

OK the generator sets up a like field as the element you are searching for. This is nothing new. If any targets are in the field a pattern of lines and rings like a pattern. Looks like patterns on metal of it is vibrated water or sand whatever will display according to the vibration frequency.

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the explanation. Maybe it is nothing new if you knew about it from before, but it is new for anyone who hasn't read it yet. So far I have only heard vague comments of "ring theory", but never an explanation of how this theory works.

In any case, the ringing that is reported can be detected by a dowsing response, and not by electronic instruments which indicate an accurate location of the hidden object (I presume). It seems to me this method of locating things would be limited to people who receive a dowsing response when a signal generator is nearby. It would be interesting to see someone with this dowsing ability actually find objects that someone else hides.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the explanation. Maybe it is nothing new if you knew about it from before, but it is new for anyone who hasn't read it yet. So far I have only heard vague comments of "ring theory", but never an explanation of how this theory works.

In any case, the ringing that is reported can be detected by a dowsing response, and not by electronic instruments which indicate an accurate location of the hidden object (I presume). It seems to me this method of locating things would be limited to people who receive a dowsing response when a signal generator is nearby. It would be interesting to see someone with this dowsing ability actually find objects that someone else hides.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi J_P.

The "ring phenomenon" is detectable only at big objects at big depth and for many years burried. At small objects as coins etc i never saw the ring phenomenon. But i saw it once at big object. But the strange is that every dowser has a little different theory about it.

Regards

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Geo

Hi J_P.

The "ring phenomenon" is detectable only at big objects at big depth and for many years burried. At small objects as coins etc i never saw the ring phenomenon. But i saw it once at big object. But the strange is that every dowser has a little different theory about it.

Regards

Hi Geo,
This is the reason why we must hear all theories so we can archive them for future reference when the ring theory becomes part of real science.
Nobody knows when the ring theory will become part of real science, but when it does, we can use the archives we make today to separate the mistaken theories from the correct theories.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

OK the generator sets up a like field as the element you are searching for. This is nothing new. If any targets are in the field a pattern of lines and rings like a pattern. Looks like patterns on metal of it is vibrated water or sand whatever will display according to the vibration frequency.

That is pure pseudo or wish science, and has never been validated by conventional measuring instruments.

[Tim Williams]

Originally Posted by Theseus

That is pure pseudo or wish science, and has never been validated by conventional measuring instruments.

You are correct and I state that fact on my site. But that does not stop me from using a generator. It's my choice.

Tim

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Tim Williams

You are correct and I state that fact on my site. But that does not stop me from using a generator. It's my choice.

Tim

Since(*) you are a dealer and manufacturer of those pseudoscience items, it might be a good idea if you always include some kind of disclaimer or statement of information stating that the "ring theory" and associated ideas are pure conjecture on your part. That way innocent folks, not knowing any better, will not come away with the notion these "rings" you talk about are based on scientific fact.

(*) since; Incidentally, in almost every instance, in your writing, and the text on your site, you mis-spell - or interchange the word "sense", when in fact you really mean "since". At first, I thought it was just a random error, but the frequency with which you do it indicates either you really don't know the difference between the two words (just because they sound similar) or you really don't know how to spell the correct word. In either case, whenever you are trying to sell a product or write a "position paper", the credibility of the writer will always suffer if they constantly display poor grammar and spelling practices. (Here is your most recent example; "I've been doing this sense 1985 and have...") Take Art for example; his credibility is zero, due almost entirely from poor writing skills, being repeatedly caught fabricating false info and accusations and in general making a complete fool of himself. Very sad... Even if he had something of a worthwhile contribution, it is totally lost in his self-made labyrinth of obfuscation and willful deceit.

[Tim Williams]

I know my spelling sucks. I'm working on it.

Tim