H3Tec discussion

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Thanks Dave.
A great first post on Geotech!

Let me second that "thumbs up"!!!

Pay no attention to the Hung, he will always try and stifle the truth, but his promise to debunker is an empty one. He is one of, and defends the scammers you are talking about, so naturally he is hurt by the truth in your posting. Thanks for putting it on here.

[Dave J.]

for reposting the entire essay! I'm flattered.

--Dave J.

[Saturna]

Originally Posted by hung

Some points lack scientific understanding, other points use'hearsay' non scientific or factual analysis as a lame support and the rest is simply pure BS.

Well, we certainly don't want those on an LRL/Dowsing forum.

[Carl-NC]

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Dave J.

"Read the Advertisement"

Outstanding!!!

Do we have a category for best LRL post?

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.

Thanks for the clean-up on Aisle #6. On Tnet he gets away with posting that kind of crap all the time; which he does just so he has the last posting in a thread. Hopefully Tnet will be back up sometime today. Feel free to delete this, as well.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.

Thanks Carl!
Now back to H3Tec news and developments.

It seems like it's H3Tec's turn... Will we see more email demands and threats?
Or will we see reports that their attorney is making demands next?


Dave J. -- Excellent article about the H3Tec.
Any casual reader can come here and read your post to get a clear idea of what this device is.
See here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...&postcount=197


Best wishes,
J_P

[Art3811]

Art, I "pruned" your off-topic rants, and other people's replies. If you want to discuss H3Tec, then discuss H3Tec! If you don't want to discuss H3Tec, then please post your rants in the RS forum, or go back to TNet.

Thank you Carl for telling me that you and your people object about discussions’ about the H3Tec…Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod? That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art

[Qiaozhi]

If we ignore the fact that your post is barely intelligible, let's try to address your comments.

Originally Posted by Art3811

Thank you Carl for telling me that you and your people object about discussions’ about the H3Tec…

There is no objection to anyone discussing the H3Tec device. In fact, this is the precise reason for this thread. Are you confused about something?

Originally Posted by Art3811

Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod?

Look at the image posted below. There are no IFs or BUTs, this is a dowsing rod. It has a swinging arm that is free to move. The arm is not actuated by the electronic circuitry, but operates completely independently.

Originally Posted by Art3811

That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art

This doesn't even make sense. Why would the first step need to be a declaration that dowsing is real? The dowsing effect is well known to be a trick of the mind.

Do you think this plastic gadget looks like something that costs $10,000?

[Art3811]

This doesn't even make sense. Why would the first step need to be a declaration that dowsing is real? The dowsing effect is well known to be a trick of the mind.

You are the ones that are saying that the H3Tec is a Dowsing Rod…Do you know anything about Dowsing except for the fact that you can not Dowse? Can you tell us why you claim that all LRL’s are just Dowsing rod? How come that Millions of Dowsers do not believe that it is a trick of the mind? How come if Dowsing is a trick of the mind most Dowsers are successful Treasure Hunters? Just some more questions for you to duck and dodge…Art

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Art3811

Thank you Carl for telling me that you and your people object about discussions’ about the H3Tec…Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod? That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art

Let me give you my synopsis. I posted a few days ago my take on the patent, and said it was wrong on so many levels, but I didn't really address them in any detail.

The claim is that the LRL is based on technology that stimulates and then senses the target, using Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR). I am no expert in NMR as my field is E.E., but I know enough to know that to satisfactorily perform NMR of a substance, a magnetic field substantially higher than that of the earth's is required. 0.5 Gauss (typical earth's field) is way too small. You really want to subject the sample to a magnetic field of at least 1 Tesla, which works out to 10000 Gauss. That is unless of course you can find a way to cool the target to near absolute Zero temperature, where the atomic vibrations are reduced to a level where a much lower magnetic field is able to force alignment of the magnetic moment of the target's atoms with the applied magnetic field. Since the patent doesn't address how to cool the remote target to cryogenic temperatures, we can safely infer that it is not done.

Why would you want to do this? Quite simply because to detect Magnetic Resonance, you need to have the magnetic moment of the atoms in the target aligned in the direction of the applied magnetic field, or in the anti-parallel direction. Gold, not being ferromagnetic will not spontaneously align by itself and a large field is required to overcome thermally induced randomness in the magnetic moments of the atoms in the target. The higher the field, the larger the signal obtained and the more sharply defined is the resonance.

Next, one needs to irradiate the target with RF energy of the proper frequency. As stated in the patent, the right frequency is a function of the element, its temperature and the magnetic field strength it is subjected to, although I am not sure the equation shown is correct. The RF energy density needs to be significantly large to cause a reasonable number of atoms to flip to the higher energy (anti-parallel) state, followed by quickly turning off the RF source and then listening to the signal radiated by the excited atoms as they flip back to their low energy state. OP amps, and band-pass filters are not the kind of electronics that will achieve those results. Neither is the "antenna" (aka dowsing rod) used. An end fed antenna has to be of the right length relative to the RF frequency required to irradiate the sample and as the patent stated, the frequencies necessary to detect different atomic targets is quite broad, going from KHz to GHz. But, above all, the shape of the radiated field is such that it will be a minimum in the direction of the pointed end. Note that this is precisely the position the antenna (aka dowsing rod) will assume to indicate the direction of the sample. Needless to say, the received signal strength will never, under any circumstances, be large enough to create the torque necessary to rotate the antenna. Another reason why the instrument doesn't work when affixed to a bench.

So, to summarize: We are using the wrong electrical circuitry to perform NMR; the device uses a very inefficient RF radiator to stimulate the target; the pointy radiator (aka dowsing rod) aligns itself in a trajectory that minimizes the stimulated signal and the received signal simultaneously while the marketing BS claims an incredible detection range.

The device will not point to any target unless it is hand held. Last I read up on NMR, the ideomotor effect was not a requirement for successful NMR sample detection.

Last but not least, the use of an electrical brush and spring at the bottom of the dowsing rod does increase friction in the system, requiring a stronger ideomotor effect from the user to cause the instrument to point to something. You can think of this as a loss of dowsing sensitivity, or looking at it positively, as lowering the incidence of false positives.

[Art3811]

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Art3811

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

Because you ever use metal detector during your dowsing session. Just because of use metal detector.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Art3811

Could you explain to Why you consider the H3Tec to be just a “Dowsing Rod? That is your claim so I think the first step in the any discuss should be that Dowsing is real…Art

Whether or not dowsing is "real" has no bearing on whether or not something is a dowsing rod. Even if I don't believe a Ouija board works, I can still look at one and say, "That's a Ouija board."

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Art3811

How come if Dowsing is a trick of the mind most Dowsers are successful Treasure Hunters? Just some more questions for you to duck and dodge…Art

Just because they are AS sucesfull as if they were carefully looking around, choosing a place and dig. They could also toss a coin, but then their experience in knowing where previous recovery were more sucesfull would not work.

Originally Posted by Art3811

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

They are not, or it would have been proved long ago.

[Art3811]

Whether or not dowsing is "real" has no bearing on whether or not something is a dowsing rod. Even if I don't believe a Ouija board works, I can still look at one and say, "That's a Ouija board."

Just because they are AS sucesfull as if they were carefully looking around, choosing a place and dig. They could also toss a coin, but then their experience in knowing where previous recovery were more sucesfull would not work.

They are not, or it would have been proved long ago.

Thank you gentle for your answers….I have purchased 4 LRL’s and MFD’s from 3 different manufactures. I asked all three of them similar questions. They answered all my questions and showed me how the devices worked. You guys keep claiming that you are on the internet to keep people from buying these devices…How could your failure to answer simple questions keep people from investigating the subject more?..That is why some of this membership are inline to by LRL salesman of the your….Art

[Fred]

Art, the failure to answer how it works is YOURS , not ours. YOU say it works, so prove it, then tell us HOW.

[Art3811]

Art, the failure to answer how it works is YOURS , not ours. YOU say it works, so prove it, then tell us HOW.

Thank you Fred…
It is a common psychological problem in that insecure people tend to project their personal deficiencies unto another in self defense, they are sure trying to pass theirs lack of knowledge over to you

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Art3811

Hey Rudy…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

Art, I was not making a blanket statement about LRLs in general. I was staying within the topic of this thread. Specifically the H3 Tec device. My conclusion, based on sound accepted science, about the H3 Tec device is that it can not successfully employ NMR techniques to detect anything. Any detection capability that it may exhibit is strictly based on the ideomotor effect on a dowsing rod.

Wether or not some individuals can successfully dowse for precious metals has no bearing on wether or not the H3 Tec claims about their machine employing NMR are truthful.

PS: I could have gone on with a few more reasons in my analysis but I thought my point was already proven.

[Dave J.]

Art, you need a crash course on what it means to be a "dowsing claimant".

A "claimant" is a dowser/LRL'er who claims he can do this and do that, but can't back it up with anything besides more claims he can do this and do that. You know the pattern well.

The nongullibles here also know the pattern well. We don't believe you can do diddlysquat, and it's the things that you say that convince us of that. We've been listening to blowhard braggarts since we were kids, you're nothing new to us.

I'll tell you a Monday evening bedtime story. You decide whether it's fact or fiction. Lose some sleep over it if that's what it takes.

* * * * * * *

Growing up, "Jerry" noticed that sometimes he seemed to have hunches that were unusually lucky, and sometimes dreamed things that later came true in detail. In his late teens he took up an interest in "treasure hunting" as many young fellows do, and tried his hand at dowsing with a coat hanger. And by golly, now and then he seemed to get results just too good to explain by chance.

He took up dowsing as a hobby, and as it turns out he actually had a bit of talent.

Then he met other more experienced dowsers who claimed to get really good results with fancier equipment, and had all kinds of tips on why bad dowses happen. And that was the beginning of Jerry's downfall.

He started bragging how good he was.

And his new friends trained him in an alabi system that stopped him cold from being able to learn from his mistakes. The alabi system kept improving instead of his skill.

Since every failure could be attributed to something or someone besides himself, he became even more sure of his dowsing ability, bragging even more, even while his ego investment in outcomes was ruining the ability of his subconscious mind to be able to manifest itself through the rods.

He got so proud that he sunk big bucks into a fancy LRL so he wouldn't have to be seen with the lowly dowsing rods any more. His LRL buddies complimented him. The LRL came with an even more elaborate alabi system. And LRL'ers are supposed to deny that they're even dowsing. It's some sort of fancy technology, right? right? right?

And thus did Jerry become like his mentor buddies. Zero dowsing ability, in so much denial that he didn't even know he had lost all dowsing ability, claiming to be able to do this if only and that if only and this other thing if only, demanding to be believed, and bewildered that nobody with a lick of common sense would take him seriously. And his friends and family wondered what had happened to the reasonably level-headed kid they once knew.

At least his LRL buddies were still there to keep him pumped up.

And that's the story of how "Jerry" became a "dowsing claimant".

* * * * * * *

--Dave J.

[hung]

Hello Dave,

Originally Posted by Dave J.

For the purpose of this essay, an "LRL" is a so-called long range locator which relies on a hand-held swivel mounted pointer device (typically a telescoping antenna) and has some sort of alleged electronic stuff associated with it which distinguishes it from a plain vanilla dowsing rod. Some LRL's use two, one in each hand, just as dowsers who use bent coat hangers usually prefer to use two rather than one.

'Your definition posted is not accurate and it's incomplete. It's not accurate when it states 'some use two, one in each hand'. Wrong. Those are not LRLs. Those are the sensors of MFD type based LRLs.
And it's incomplete when you only consider swivel type LRLs. There are also electronic LRLs, with no swivel mechanism.'

When it comes to LRL's, there's usually a nasty debate over proving stuff one way or the other, what blinded testing is and whether or not it even matters, whether people who say their LRL finds stuff in a useful way are deluded or liars or providing accurate information, whether the supposed science really is or is just a bunch of malarkey,and so on ad infinitum(...)

BS#1.
Will not care to coment.

Most of life doesn't require such a challenging level of critical thinking. People argue over what car is best, but nobody argues whether cars are just a scam. Houses, the roof may leak but nobody argues whether houses really "work" or not. (…) Metal detectors? There are legal and illegal knockoffs, but nobody debates whether metal detectors as a class of product are bogus. (…)

BS#2
They are bogus when they do not go deep enough for the price paid. They are bogus when they do not work well over mineralized soils. They are bogus when they do not work at all over high magnetic locations (to the point of even become defective), they are bogus when they have problems in pinpointing long time buried metal which produces a 'halo' effect and confuses the coil.
And finally, they are bogus when they still employ an obsolete concept of early 1900's with all the fancy add-ons.
Remember those 90's TV comercials about hair systems? A wig is a wig by any other name...

(...)Most LRL's are rather expensive, and if you're gonna get one you should satisfy yourself that the thing will probably do something for you besides empty your wallet. Caveat emptor, do your homework carefully.(...)

BS#3
I imagine they are expensive so that the user is somehow discouraged to open the device and also due to the benefits it brings.
I have a friend who always states he recovered already 10 times the value he paid in his (expensive) LRL.
There are also regular MD users who pay ultra expensive amounts for a gadget that can only go some inches and take years to even recover in goods the amount he paid for the machine. Of course there are the lucky ones who can find a diamond ring all of a sudden. But how often does this happen, when the majority of time these users collect more pulltabs than the beer factories themselves?
And there are also the ones who never found anything valuable. I know some of them. So it's just a matter of relativity.

There's a way to make sense of the chaos of information and misinformation and intentional disinformation and personality battles that aren't your battles. And that's to cut out the information middlemen. Go straight to the source, the manufacturer, and read the advertisement. With the brains God done guv ya turned on and tuned up, because as you already figured out, it's a jungle out there.

Non sequitur...

From an LRL manufacturer's perspective, there are basically two markets: the treasure hunting gullibillies, and military and security professionals who are not so gullible but can be conned with clever pseudoscience. (...)I that it's a scam, so you don't have to suffer the punishment that scammers inflict upon their customers.

BS#4
See BS#1 above.

The manufacturer doesn't say "you can dowse with it" because then you'd wonder why you were paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for some pseudo-electronic nonsense when a bent coat hanger would probably work as well.

Define 'pseudo electronic nonsense'.

There's another problem with confessing it to be a dowsing rod. (...)They pay a high price for the privilege of pretending they're not dowsing.

Define dowing and dowsing rod.

Since an LRL in this market makes extraordinary claims, the advertising is accompanied by an explanation of the supposed "scientific principle" of how the thing works.

What extraordinary claim is made and why 'supposed' scientific principle? Detail this in scientific terms.

1. If it's designed to be held in the hand, with something that points to the target mounted on a swivel, it's a dowsing rod.

Since you did not provide the explanation for dowsing, your statement above is non sequitur.

Dead giveaway. In principle it would be possible to design certain types of real locating systems to mechanically actuate a pointer to indicate the direction of the target, but such a system if it existed would not need to be held in the hand, just as an ordinary magnetic compass does not need to be held in the hand in order to point north.

In order to fully explain the reasons a swivel LRL needs to be held, I would have to disclose information of my own research, which I choose not to do at this time.
But it suffices to say that there are interaction of charges between air, body and target to build up induction and resonance based on the frequencies used. The swivel LRL user often needs to be in movement in order to create electrostatic charges. Also, the human body is very sensitive to tiny currents in the ground when using rods. They can sense about 20mA to a few microamperes. Since the body is also very sensitive to small magnetic fields (Rocard calculated about 0.3mOe/m), swivel LRLs and MFD types act as increasing amplifiers with the correspondent frequencies. A quantum system is formed working similar, but not exactly as a Aharonov-Bohm magnetic dipole to sense magnetic anomalies. Something that a regular electronic device would never be able to do because of noise. However it's possible to build a special electronic device for this function.
Trying to infere that an LRL rod or antenna should behave like a magnetic compass is simply absurd.

For instance, if I designed a metal detector that looked pretty much like a regular metal detector but which could discriminate gold from other alloys (an extraordinary claim), if the thing really worked the company would have to either disclose how it was done in a way that other scientists could understand it and in principle could replicate it.

No they would not.

how do they address the problem of satisfying skeptics?

Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,.... They simply don't do it.
What for?

If you are skeptical and they can't satisfy your expectation that such claims be substantiated, they don't deserve your business even if the thing works.

Oh, my God...

......Now anyone familiar with the electric fields produced by the human heart and how they might be detected without physical contact to a human body can quickly figure out that such a claim is malarkey, but most folks don't have that particular kind of knowledge.

You don't know what you're saying. If some acupuncture meridian points such those of pericardium, frontal and kidneys are short circuited by a wire, all the body looses the response for dowsing and also there's a phase imbalance. This shows the human body is a quantum complex system much, much deeper than you might think.

1. The photos and movies show what is obviously a pivoted pointer designed to be held in the hand. What a coincidence that it looks like a classic dowsing rod!

What is a classic dowsing rod?
In order to substantiate your claim, define dowsing and dowsing rod.

PS#3: if someday there's a non-scam handheld long range locating device for finding valuables, persons, drugs, or weapons, a lot of us would like to hear about it.

As you may know, H3Tec is planing an event in december for their devices.
So, if you are serious about knowing the truth whatever that might be, why don't you show up and gather elements for your 'proof'?
Or you will play like some mambo boys here who whine that no LRL manufacturer is willing to demonstrate their products so they could know about it..? Duhh...

I suggest that next time you decide to write an 'essay' about something, study and research the object you will be writing about as much as you can. Otherwise you will come up with a lame and incorrect aproach causing to derail the thesis.
I'm sorry.
Best regards.

[Art3811]

In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system (usually a linear system) to oscillate at larger amplitude at some frequencies than at others. These are known as the system's resonant frequencies (or resonance frequencies). At these frequencies, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude oscillations.
To prove that objects emit energy or a signal is simple. Use a quart jar. Take some liquid rubber and dab it onto the center of the lid. Pull it away from the lid to create a thin string that looks like the strand of a spider web. This is the hardest part of the test. Attach a 1/2 inch Alum foil disk to the rubber strand. Screw the lid on the jar.

Place a protractor on the table with the 90 degree mark pointing to north. Set the jar on the protractor and alien the disk in a north south direction. Place a gold nugget beside the jar on the 0 degree mark of the protractor and wait for the disk to turn. Now try placing other objects by the jar one at a time. I found that a slice of onion gave off the strongest signal of anything that I tried.

What turned the disk? I can only conclude that objects emit energy.....
https://www.excelsior.edu/Excelsior_College/Criminal_Justice_Training_Assessment/Directory_of_CJTA_Credit_Recommendations/CJTA_Credit_Recommendations_TX/Texas%20Department%20of%20Public%20Safety.pdf
http://www.thepowerblog.com/7-qualities-of-a-highly-persuasive-person/
http://www.psiuk.co.uk/35928.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/products/ProductDetail.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0020558831.1273 590415@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccchadekghglikgcefecekjdffi dflg.0&productID=BK_VERI_000001
http://www.i-t-s.co.uk/ideo_motor_response.html

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Art3811

You are the ones that are saying that the H3Tec is aU Dowsing Rod…Do you know anything about Dowsing except for the fact that you can not Dowse? Can you tell us why you claim that all LRL’s are just Dowsing rod?
... Just some more questions for you to duck and dodge…Art

Ummmm... It seems you are misquoting people again. Nobody said "all LRL’s are just Dowsing rod", except you when you misquoted Qiaozhi.
The consensus among Geotech members who have actually seen the H3Tec us that it is a dowsing rod.
Tim Williams the "LRL Man" also considers the H3Tec to be a dowsing rod. Tim was at the Texas Treasure Show with Carl when they both took a look and recognized the H3tec to be a dowsing rod.
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=63
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=80

Tim personally inspected H3Tec equipment, and If you are not aware, he sells dowsing rods and other apparatus that is used for dowsing and LRLs as well as some conventional treasure hunting technology.
Tim Williams -- the "LRL Man" says it is a dowsing rod?
If anyone should know what a dowsing rod is, I would expect Tim to know.

Originally Posted by Art3811

…If your theories are right could you explain to the rest of us how come these devices are so good at locating gold and other minerals?....Art

Ummmm Why not forget the theories for the moment, and look at some historical facts:

During the Texas Treasure Show the factory reps were demonstrating the H3Tec finding a silver coin in the field. Carl walked past the area where they were demonstrating the H3Tec that was set for silver while he was carrying a 10 oz silver bar. According to Carl, he made sure they were scanning in his direction, but they had no idea he had a silver bar in front of their silver detector. http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...07&postcount=1
It seems to me this is an example where the H3Tec is not so good at locating silver.

Tim Williams, the "LRL Man" was also there during the H3Tec live demonstrations. He hid some silver coins for the H3Tec demonstrators to locate. He reported: "If the unit was truly all electronic sensing the 2 people that were testing the units would have had no problem detecting the silver I hid. That was not the case". See here: http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=55

We read how both Carl and Tim saw the H3Tec fail during the public factory demonstrations. But Carl and Tim Williams are not the only people saying the H3Tec doesn't work.
H3Tec gained worldwide notoriety when it became listed among other fraudulent "dowsing rod" style locators being being investigated by people who want to put a stop to fake bomb detector sales.
See here: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...espondent.html
And here: http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/
And here: http://www.linkedpk.com/vidfeeder_vi...id=riGMVrZmJII
And here: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/show....php?p=2494077

Etc, etc. etc...
The facts show the H3Tec failed during the factory demonstrations. Maybe Rudy's theories are correct after all?


Did you find an answer to your question of why Qiaozhi claims the H3Tec is a dowsing rod?

Best wishes,
J_P

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by hung

Hello Dave,

Your definition posted is not accurate and it's incomplete. It's not accurate when it states 'some use two, one in each hand'. Wrong. [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#1 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#2 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#3 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
BS#4 [Bla Bla Bla.... ]
See BS#1 [Bla Bla Bla....] above.

[Bla Bla Bla.... ]
[Bla Bla Bla.... ]
[Bla Bla Bla.... ]
[Bla Bla Bla.... ]

[Bla Bla Bla....]..?

Duhh...

I suggest [Bla Bla Bla....]

I'm sorry.
Best regards.

(shortened to conserve page space)

My, my... Dr. Hung seems quite disturbed by Dave's article about the H3Tec....

Best wishes,
J_P

[Dave J.]

a bit of confusion, Player: Hung was replying to my Advertising post, but his reply came after the bedtime story which I presume he hadn't seen.

--Dave J.