some cosiderations

[Seden]

What I've come away with from reading J Players articles is that he is providing good solid scientific information on the chemical and electrical possibilities that COULD make it possible for an LRL to be designed around.

He's just provided us with the science available and it's up to us to get off our collective asses and do our own experiments. No one should be spoon fed on this forum. Were all brainstorming (American expression for sharing of ideas and theories) and since were (hopefully) seasoned electronics people now have the information necessary to experiment with.
So let's be done with this criticing of others ideas,turn on our soldering irons,oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers and experiment.

I own several classic and new Geophysics books and have come to realize that Geophysicists are not interested in Treasure hunting and so therefore no monies have been given to research using the kind of things that J Player has listed as possiblities. Personally I too am leaning towards Magnetotelluric currents as a good starting point. Why should we have to view the naturally occuring radiation as 'noise' when we could use it to our benefit? Were fighting against something that could be used for our purpose.

Randy

[Max]

Originally Posted by Seden

What I've come away with from reading J Players articles is that he is providing good solid scientific information on the chemical and electrical possibilities that COULD make it possible for an LRL to be designed around.

He's just provided us with the science available and it's up to us to get off our collective asses and do our own experiments. No one should be spoon fed on this forum. Were all brainstorming (American expression for sharing of ideas and theories) and since were (hopefully) seasoned electronics people now have the information necessary to experiment with.
So let's be done with this criticing of others ideas,turn on our soldering irons,oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers and experiment.

I own several classic and new Geophysics books and have come to realize that Geophysicists are not interested in Treasure hunting and so therefore no monies have been given to research using the kind of things that J Player has listed as possiblities. Personally I too am leaning towards Magnetotelluric currents as a good starting point. Why should we have to view the naturally occuring radiation as 'noise' when we could use it to our benefit? Were fighting against something that could be used for our purpose.

Randy

Hi Randy,
yes "COULD make it possible for an LRL to be designed around"
you're right. I think JP has done a good work of research, finding documents and reading a lot.
I found some of his posts really interesting too.
And yes, I know " brainstorming " expression... make lot of these... very often (almost everyday).
Could be a good idea thinking at telluric currents as a starting point, considering them not just as noise but as useful source of an active signal.

Just I think that some of these things will never give results. Aren't promising from my point of view... my physics understanding say me that's the wrong way, so can't see usefulness of them.

My idea of LRL pass through an active locator, with some kind of signal emission, like in radar systems.

For me is much more difficault finding/thinking a passive way to electronic-LRL. Can't see good principles, theory of operation etc for them.

When I see stuff like zahori' schematic, microvoltmeters and other "anomaly detectors" I have my problems thinking at them as working LRLs... you know why.

Real misteries are the claims of above... and their implications.
Already made and working LRLs !

But I like misteries.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Max,

You forget. You have the problem, not me. I don't have to prove anything to you. You can whine all you want, but you can't coerce me to perform per your demands and you can't stop me from accomplishing my objective.

Your tricks still didn't work. Now what will you do?

Best wishes,
J_P

Originally Posted by Max

Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?

Now you don't want give proofs... schematics... even the principle of operation... NOTHING.

Why you posted here that you have a working electronic LRL ?
And then become silent ?

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

With all this bickering going on, I've become a little confused. I don't recall anywhere that you claimed to have a working LRL.
Is this true, or not?

Hi Qiaozhi,

You are correct. I never did post here that I have a working electronic LRL.
This is a false allegation made by Max.

It's funny how writing about real science can cause some people to become upset and use stupid arguments to prove the science is no good; -- only the ideas that live inside their heads are correct. In this case Max used the same logic as he used to prove the researchers reports were wrong about ion concentrations they discovered in the soil, and the same logic he used to prove that magnetellurics cannot locate gold. This refusal to face scientific facts is usually reserved for certain LRL proponents or religious fanatics. But I had a feeling my posts detailing buried metal geoscience would flush out a few deluded forum members. Apparently, even skeptics are capable of attempting to spread false allegations in order to promote their favourite opinions.

For those who are interested in knowing about the properties of buried metals and some seldom observed phenomena around them, You will find little help in Max's posts to lead you that direction. Seden's post above summarizes my opinion of LRLs that led to my posting this series of facts discovered about the science of buried metals and related phenomena.

I am as skeptical as anyone else about paying money for commercial locating equipment that the seller is not willing to demonstrate working for me. And I also believe we skeptics should use the same "real science" we claim the LRL proponents refuse to face when dealing with the methods of detecting anything. "Real science" is science that can be observed and demonstrated repeatably, not science that somebody makes up off the top of their head, based on some unfounded logic and lack of data.

The news that there are traces of metal ions in the soil above long-time buried metals was not news to me. This was explained to me by a physicist two decades ago, and has been known by some of the scientists working for the US government since that time or longer. I felt now is a good time to start talking about it since some of the worst fake LRL proponents have left and stopped clogging up this forum with misinformation. We now have a fairly fertile ground for those who are still undecided, and have the electronic skills to experiment in this area.

The existence of traces of metal ions near buried metals is not the only phenomenon that could contribute to building a true LRL. But it is a key essential factor in making other phenomena detectable that could be found through passive or active methods. This is the reason I am covering some of the less often observed phenomena that changes when there is metal buried beneath the surface. There is no single method that surpasses all other approaches in this field, just as there is no single best metal detector that surpasses all others. Different approaches are needed for different conditions. There is something here for everybody who is interested in knowing the details of what real science has been observed concerning buried metals. There is nothing here for people who have decided they have no interest in understanding or experimenting in these areas. Make no mistake, I am not writing anything about the schematics or tuning details for working LRLs, only about the geophysics of buried metals. For those who have no interest in these things, you may better spend your time reading something you are interested in instead of this.

And for those who want to coerce me to perform for them or think for them, it didn't work for Max, and it probably won't work for you.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Some ideas

USA GOVERNMENT PAPER:

3.4.4 In pipeline cathodic protection, a negative potential is impressed on the pipeline which causes electrical earth currents to flow to the pipeline, protecting it against corrosion. Since the conductivity of most metals exceeds the conductivity of average soils, buried metallic pipes or cables act as low resistance paths and tend to collect stray earth currents which may be present in the surrounding earth electrolyte. At the point where the stray currents enter these auxiliary conductors the earth becomes anodic and the pipe or cable becomes cathodic.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Coils and compass as indicator of conductivity. Lost in time!!!

[J_Player]

Hi Seden,

Originally Posted by Seden

I own several classic and new Geophysics books and have come to realize that Geophysicists are not interested in Treasure hunting and so therefore no monies have been given to research using the kind of things that J Player has listed as possiblities.

The geophysicists I have talked to also have little interest in treasure hunting. They are more interested in methods to locate things under the ground that their employers pay them to locate. Most of the money for research in this field is funded by government agencies interested in science, and by private exploration companies.

Because most physicists are busy developing methods as directed by the programs they are working within, they have little time to dabble in treasure hunting. They view treasure hunting as an activity that is not likely to provide them with a good income as the research programs pay them to develop. For this reason, the development of geophysics as well as astrophysics and other related sciences are directed by the goals of government sponsored and commercial archeology, geophysics and space exploration programs. Treasure hunting developments fall mostly in the realm of private experimenters. It seems the Geotech Long Range Locating forum is a perfect place for this kind of experimenting.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Esteban]

Here another proof about how a stable and sensitive BFO in conjunction with other "things" can detect at distance and depth.

No schematics, please!!! Missing in action, yes, because I'm in action building more electronic LRL! This is for to enerve Max and others!

[gold24h]

Esteban,i beleive your locater works,this is what i think.The receiving part of the machine sends a signal to the BFO that causes the bfo to get out of resonance,i would have to know more before i could build such a machine but am i close to the way it operates?

[Seden]

Would you mind emailing me your address,I've got some questions that I don't want to post.

r.seden@sbcglobal.net

Thanks much,

Randy Seden

[Esteban]

... sends a signal to the BFO that causes the bfo to get out of resonance

Yes, you're right. Good BFO is better than other types because is in critic equilibrium, but is difficult to find a good BFO.

p.s.: my reference to "others" is regarding no-believers.

[Esteban]

Believe or not believe, that's the question.

Here a scan from press article:

[Seden]

Oh Esteban you're such a tease!!! Did you get the email I sent you?

Randy Seden WD6ELU

[Max]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Qiaozhi,

You are correct. I never did post here that I have a working electronic LRL.
This is a false allegation made by Max.

It's funny how writing about real science can cause some people to become upset and use stupid arguments to prove the science is no good; -- only the ideas that live inside their heads are correct. In this case Max used the same logic as he used to prove the researchers reports were wrong about ion concentrations they discovered in the soil, and the same logic he used to prove that magnetellurics cannot locate gold. This refusal to face scientific facts is usually reserved for certain LRL proponents or religious fanatics. But I had a feeling my posts detailing buried metal geoscience would flush out a few deluded forum members. Apparently, even skeptics are capable of attempting to spread false allegations in order to promote their favourite opinions.

For those who are interested in knowing about the properties of buried metals and some seldom observed phenomena around them, You will find little help in Max's posts to lead you that direction. Seden's post above summarizes my opinion of LRLs that led to my posting this series of facts discovered about the science of buried metals and related phenomena.

I am as skeptical as anyone else about paying money for commercial locating equipment that the seller is not willing to demonstrate working for me. And I also believe we skeptics should use the same "real science" we claim the LRL proponents refuse to face when dealing with the methods of detecting anything. "Real science" is science that can be observed and demonstrated repeatably, not science that somebody makes up off the top of their head, based on some unfounded logic and lack of data.

The news that there are traces of metal ions in the soil above long-time buried metals was not news to me. This was explained to me by a physicist two decades ago, and has been known by some of the scientists working for the US government since that time or longer. I felt now is a good time to start talking about it since some of the worst fake LRL proponents have left and stopped clogging up this forum with misinformation. We now have a fairly fertile ground for those who are still undecided, and have the electronic skills to experiment in this area.

The existence of traces of metal ions near buried metals is not the only phenomenon that could contribute to building a true LRL. But it is a key essential factor in making other phenomena detectable that could be found through passive or active methods. This is the reason I am covering some of the less often observed phenomena that changes when there is metal buried beneath the surface. There is no single method that surpasses all other approaches in this field, just as there is no single best metal detector that surpasses all others. Different approaches are needed for different conditions. There is something here for everybody who is interested in knowing the details of what real science has been observed concerning buried metals. There is nothing here for people who have decided they have no interest in understanding or experimenting in these areas. Make no mistake, I am not writing anything about the schematics or tuning details for working LRLs, only about the geophysics of buried metals. For those who have no interest in these things, you may better spend your time reading something you are interested in instead of this.

And for those who want to coerce me to perform for them or think for them, it didn't work for Max, and it probably won't work for you.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
"
You are correct. I never did post here that I have a working electronic LRL.
This is a false allegation made by Max.
"

you never said that you own a working electronic-LRL... or that have a schematic.

That was my hypothesys that you have one of these or a working design.

But you wrote:

"I've never seen a LRL available for sale on the open market demonstrated to work, but I have seen and used a couple of LRLs built and owned by private individuals that worked like the builders said they would (these are not for sale). "

"They located from a long range beyond the reach of any metal detector. The point is they are not available for anyone to buy on the open market. The only LRLs for sale on the open market cannot be demonstrated to work.

Think about it. Suppose you had an electronic instrument that located metal objects in a certain weight range and discriminated, from a range of over 50 feet. ..."

DON'T YOU ?

It's a big claim.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Here another proof about how a stable and sensitive BFO in conjunction with other "things" can detect at distance and depth.

No schematics, please!!! Missing in action, yes, because I'm in action building more electronic LRL! This is for to enerve Max and others!

Hi Esteban,
nice to see you again.

But this is your proof ???

Another picture of you holding something. Cool.

But prove nothing.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

You're a funny guy Max,

Now that You've been caught spreading false rumors, you change your story.
Nice try Max, but your tricks won't work on me.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Believe or not believe, that's the question.

Here a scan from press article:

Hi,
also this proves absolutely nothing.

I have also magazines (not just "supposed" technical) that talks about aliens on Mars and show funny pictures.

It's just another picture that say nothing of nothing.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by J_Player

You're a funny guy Max,

Now that You've been caught spreading false rumors, you change your story.
Nice try Max, but your tricks won't work on me.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
I'm funny ?

you wrote:

"I've never seen a LRL available for sale on the open market demonstrated to work, but I have seen and used a couple of LRLs built and owned by private individuals that worked like the builders said they would (these are not for sale). "

"They located from a long range beyond the reach of any metal detector. The point is they are not available for anyone to buy on the open market. The only LRLs for sale on the open market cannot be demonstrated to work.

Think about it. Suppose you had an electronic instrument that located metal objects in a certain weight range and discriminated, from a range of over 50 feet. ..."

DON'T YOU ?

It's a big claim.

Who is much funny, me or you ?


Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Nihil Roma Maius

Coils and compass as indicator of conductivity. Lost in time!!!

Hi,
Do you see the battery ???

Is a differential circuit for measuring the Earth resistivity.

So this is your LRL ?

WHAT A DISCOVERY !

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Esteban

... sends a signal to the BFO that causes the bfo to get out of resonance

Yes, you're right. Good BFO is better than other types because is in critic equilibrium, but is difficult to find a good BFO.

p.s.: my reference to "others" is regarding no-believers.

Hi,
I like old BFOs... but what's "a good BFO" for you ?

Do you think for real you can read a 3ppm or 30ppm variation on an homemade/garagemade BFO ?

1Hz or 10Hz over 300Khz ???

You live of dreams.

That's your LRL theory of operation ?
reading FEW HERTZ (supposed) variations from a metal plate 50 METERS away with a 300Khz BFO ?

If so, you need help.

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Hi JP,

you wrote:

"I've never seen a LRL available for sale on the open market demonstrated to work, but I have seen and used a couple of LRLs built and owned by private individuals that worked like the builders said they would (these are not for sale). "

"They located from a long range beyond the reach of any metal detector. The point is they are not available for anyone to buy on the open market. The only LRLs for sale on the open market cannot be demonstrated to work.

Think about it. Suppose you had an electronic instrument that located metal objects in a certain weight range and discriminated, from a range of over 50 feet. ..."

DON'T YOU ?

C'mon answer me. Don't worry man.
Nobody will bite you.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Believe or not believe, that's the question.

Here a scan from press article:

Hi Esteban,

Is one of your devices ? One of your designs ?
One that you claim working ?

Why don't you scan the schematic instead ?
and post here...

I think many people here wanna see one of your (you said) working design... not boxes.

Kind regards,
Max

[Esteban]

Why don't you scan the schematic instead ?
and post here...

What for? If you're VERY SURE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, so, why do you want it?

Max, you don't understand my intention. I post the pic of presse because is the unique pic of this model with the controls we can see more easyli.

Sorry, Max, yes, strongly I say you that a stable BFO in conjunction with other circuits make operable BFO at regular distance. If is martian for you, for me is normal. I learn other things by other and I know what I say.

Do you think for real you can read a 3ppm or 30ppm variation on an homemade/garagemade BFO ?

1Hz or 10Hz over 300Khz ???

Your memory falls. I explain very well you that non audible minielevation in sound before mix of 2 freqs. is the matter. You insist in your prejudices since your personal point of view and don't leave to explain, include against J_P and others. Here a post on another thread:


Is true if you expect in a BFO, for example, hear 100 Hz, 500 Hz or 1 kHz, so this is the difference when detection occurs. But with another additional circuit before occurs this "great" variation you can hear in amp stage a type of "breeze" and this isn't an audible tone. So, this minielevation in sound level before occurs real audible tone is the theme. Various times I wrote about it.

And yes, all are proofs. I don't see other person like me who can post pics with different electronic LRL managed by different persons since the 70's. If you're intelligent, also you'll see the progress through the time: first search head with cable attached at box and later integrated in an only body. What reason for to lie since more 30 years?

I like old BFOs... but what's "a good BFO" for you ?

You know: stable, all we know that, IN GENERAL, BFOs are not very sensitive.

[Esteban]

That's your LRL theory of operation ?
reading FEW HERTZ (supposed) variations from a metal plate 50 METERS away with a 300Khz BFO ?


One of the many theories of operation. In electronic LRL the field is inmense! The detector I show in the pic works at 87 KHz. Autocorrection: no theory, REALITY. Metal plate near 4 kilos buried for 120 years at 1 m or more.
Miracle is great, always! And miracle is for believers!

If so, you need help.

You need help for to build one, but no me!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Why don't you scan the schematic instead ?
and post here...

What for? If you're VERY SURE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, so, why do you want it?

Max, you don't understand my intention. I post the pic of presse because is the unique pic of this model with the controls we can see more easyli.

Sorry, Max, yes, strongly I say you that a stable BFO in conjunction with other circuits make operable BFO at regular distance. If is martian for you, for me is normal. I learn other things by other and I know what I say.

Do you think for real you can read a 3ppm or 30ppm variation on an homemade/garagemade BFO ?

1Hz or 10Hz over 300Khz ???

Your memory falls. I explain very well you that non audible minielevation in sound before mix of 2 freqs. is the matter. You insist in your prejudices since your personal point of view and don't leave to explain, include against J_P and others. Here a post on another thread:


Is true if you expect in a BFO, for example, hear 100 Hz, 500 Hz or 1 kHz, so this is the difference when detection occurs. But with another additional circuit before occurs this "great" variation you can hear in amp stage a type of "breeze" and this isn't an audible tone. So, this minielevation in sound level before occurs real audible tone is the theme. Various times I wrote about it.

And yes, all are proofs. I don't see other person like me who can post pics with different electronic LRL managed by different persons since the 70's. If you're intelligent, also you'll see the progress through the time: first search head with cable attached at box and later integrated in an only body. What reason for to lie since more 30 years?

I like old BFOs... but what's "a good BFO" for you ?

You know: stable, all we know that, IN GENERAL, BFOs are not very sensitive.

Hi Esteban,

This is a serious question - Does this BFO have a transmit circuit, or is it just the local oscillator section?
Also, why doesn't the detector detect objects behind you as well as in front?

[Esteban]

This is a serious question - Does this BFO have a transmit circuit, or is it just the local oscillator section?

BFO is transmitter-receiver, 2 in 1.

Also, why doesn't the detector detect objects behind you as well as in front?

Good question. First, because the person acts like a screen. You're connected at earth through your shoes. Second, in back part of coil is another circuit wich acts as screen. So, the BFO is adjusted with all the metal parts as electrolitic, screws, PCB, RF shielded transformers, etc.