Inside Mineoro210-part1

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Geo

Hi Nihil.
Can you send me the schematic of the pointronic 98 because the schematic that you posted here is not clear .
Thanks

Maybe you should ask Esteban. According to a previous post he has this schematic:

Originally Posted by Esteban

Also have schematics of Mineoro (number 493 of my list):

493. Various Mineoro schematics, two boxes, etc.:
- 08 MI - Two boxes
- 89 MC - Two boxes
- BL 692 - Two boxes
- 8 VLl - MD
- 8 VLU - MD
- Modifications in Mineoro’s 8VLU
- CM 80
- D1 and D2 - BFO
- MP 10 - Two boxes
- DC 2006 - Pistol long range
- Pointronic 98 - Pistol long range
- DCH 85 - Pistol long range

[Qiaozhi]

And here's how you change those pesky batteries -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mTieF9gPfU

[Earthworm Jim]

Am i allowed to post HEX file for Alexismex's pdc here?
Since he already done good job by disecting device, i can complete this with hex. Dont ask me how i got it! Just to let you know; it is not possible to reread once programmed and protected ..2051. So i got it from other source. Anyone want it?
I can post it if administrator allows me....

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Max

But it's even more simple:

this stuff is patented , right ?

Any attempt to reverse engineer and obtain real schematics of that thing, for the scope of making it available to the public, could expose the author to legal actions and million dollars request of compensation in trial.
Also the forum could be exposed for responsibilities related to intellectual property infringements.

Patents don't protect against reverse engineering, or revealing details of the design. All that is perfectly legal.

- Carl

[Earthworm Jim]

I agree...

[Geo]

Hi all .
Personally I wanted only to comment for certain things that informed me and generally me bothered. I believe that the subject took bigger dimensions than that his deserve, and for this reason I personally stop here. Thanks for your opinions .
Best regards

[J_Player]

It is my understanding that if a device is patented, then it is protected in the countries where the patent is registered against anyone else using the patent claims for commercial gain unless licensed by the owner of the patent. I thought the PDC and FG locators were not patented. Is there any patent on these locators?

[Max]

Hi all,
Carl I know that rev. eng. is often legal in the US. I'm in the EU and know that also here in Europe it's the same thing, but you need some care if are in the EU to get out of troubles when rev. eng. something patented (e.g. a software but also hardware). In other countries could be, generally speaking, an illegal activity in any case.

JP maybe you're right on that they aren't patented...(and as Carl said patents don't protect from rev. eng. e.g. in the USA) but even if not patented there would be a sell agreement clause or something in the registration module (if any) that bind your hands about attempting rev. eng. the device. Like Microsoft did many times, cause they know that patents are not the way of being safe against rev. eng. e.g. of software !

Then you have to consider also which is the competent jurisdiction... cause this stuff is made e.g. in Brazil... and this could open international legal procedings too, to make things even more simple.

About USA, as Carl said:

Question: Is reverse engineering legal?

Answer: Reverse engineering has long been held a legitimate form of discovery in both legislation and court opinions. The Supreme Court has confronted the issue of reverse engineering in mechanical technologies several times, upholding it under the principles that it is an important method of the dissemination of ideas and that it encourages innovation in the marketplace. The Supreme Court addressed the first principle in Kewanee Oil v. Bicron, a case involving trade secret protection over synthetic crystals manufacturing by defining reverse engineering as "a fair and honest means of starting with the known product and working backwards to divine the process which aided in its development or manufacture." [416 U.S. 470, 476 (1974)] The principle that reverse engineering encourages innovation was articulated in Bonito Boats. v. Thunder Craft, a case involving laws forbidding the reverse engineering of the molding process of boat hulls, when the Supreme Court said that "the competitive reality of reverse engineering may act as a spur to the inventor, creating an incentive to develop inventions that meet the rigorous requirements of patentability." [489 U.S. 141 160 (1989)]
Congress has also passed legislation in a number of different technological areas specifically permitting reverse engineering. The Semiconductor Chip Protection Act (SCPA) explicitly includes a reverse engineering privilege allowing semiconductor chip designers to study the layout of circuits and incorporate that knowledge into the design of new chips. The Competition of Contracting Act of 1984 allows the defense industry to inspect and analyze the spare parts it purchases in order to facilitate competition in government contracts. The law regarding reverse engineering in the computer software and hardware context is less clear, but has been described by many courts as an important part of software development. The reverse engineering of software faces considerable legal challenges due to the enforcement of anti reverse engineering licensing provisions and the prohibition on the circumvention of technologies embedded within protection measures. By enforcing these legal mechanisms, courts are not required to examine the reverse engineering restrictions under federal intellectual property law. In circumstances involving anti reverse engineering licensing provisions, courts must first determine whether the enforcement of these provisions within contracts are preempted by federal intellectual property law considerations. Under DMCA claims involving the circumvention of technological protection systems, courts analyze whether or not the reverse engineering in question qualifies under any of the exemptions contained within the law. "



In the EU:

French legislation fully enables reverse engineering. This is the reason of the sybiline sentence at the end of Microsoft licence software licence (for instance), precising that the reverse engineering restrictions only apply if they are legal in the concerned country.

but then... cause of some EU legislation pearls, these are some "advices" for how-to:

first of all

"ASK FOR THE SPECS! i know this sounds weird, but it's a very important step. most of the reverse-engineering laws (esp. the EU ones) require that you be able to PROVE that 'the information was not available by any other means'. and only THEN can you do 'interoperability' reverse-engineering.
so, you must ask. send an email to Mr Bill Gates. do a follow-up telephone call [no, i'm actually not joking, although it does sound like a funny thing to do: hi, mr gates, please give us all of your secrets we want to do as well as you]. send out letters by courier to 1 microsoft way, by email to public forums where the people developing the software are known to hang out / respond."

"Buy licenses for all you use. Companies have been successfully sued not for reverse-engineering but for not having licenses for the e.g. software (or in some cases hardware) they were reverse-engineering."

"Find out what the legal attitude towards reverse-engineering is in the country you intend to work in. if it's not legal there, find some employees in another country, and find out what the legal aspects are w.r.t. importing that software."

So, you must consider internal law of country (of the EU) your company (our you as private individual) legally is/are/belongs! Really a MAZE!

etc etc etc

ALL TRUE ! I SWEAR !

Have to watch at many articles for other stuff... not Mineoro, of course.

All funny things... at the end to be safe doing that stuff someone must be resident e.g. at Grand Cayman !

And all for doing just reverse engineering for "internal use", "interoperability" reverse-engineering, not discovering their "trade secrets" that way and make stuff public domain.

I think that even in the US could be a huge problem if rev. eng. results are then made public domain. But I'm not sure of that.

Anyway, I think Damaso don't understand a word of what I say here... so we are all safe !

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Maybe it doesn't matter about patents. This locator works only in brazil and other South American countries where a cloud of gold ions are found hovering in the air above a buried gold target. This cloud of gold ions cannot be found anywhere else in the world, so the locator is useless when taken out of Brazil where the gold ions hover in the air 7.2 feet above the ground of buried treasure.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Maybe it doesn't matter about patents. This locator works only in brazil and other South American countries where a cloud of gold ions are found hovering in the air above a buried gold target. This cloud of gold ions cannot be found anywhere else in the world, so the locator is useless when taken out of Brazil where the gold ions hover in the air 7.2 feet above the ground of buried treasure.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
so you say that it's LOCALIZED as DVDs are ???

"Ops sorry we sold you the SA/Brazil version that doesn't work in the US..." "...but you paid in usd, and is fine for us!"

That's why they don't work in USA and Europe maybe !
We have to ask Damaso about... or Hung.

Best regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Max

"ASK FOR THE SPECS! i know this sounds weird, but it's a very important step. most of the reverse-engineering laws (esp. the EU ones) require that you be able to PROVE that 'the information was not available by any other means'. and only THEN can you do 'interoperability' reverse-engineering.

This means I must send an email to Damasio and ask to please send infos for ion chamber, how to build, circuit schematic for FG80, what ics to use, how to calibrate? I think he never answers his email.

But no problem, I don't want to build locator that only works to find where cloud of gold ions is floating in the air.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by J_Player

This means I must send an email to Damasio and ask to please send infos for ion chamber, how to build, circuit schematic for FG80, what ics to use, how to calibrate? I think he never answers his email.

But no problem, I don't want to build locator that only works to find where cloud of gold ions is floating in the air.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi JP,
but have you for real Damasio email-address ? Or he really exist as person ?

Someone saw him and could say he's real ?

I think all about this "mythology of Damasio" is fake... just my opinion.
He's fake and ethereal like his ion-clouds !

Just other persons that don't want put their real signatures under the mineoro's craps.

Just a mailbox in a desert !

Best regards,
Max

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Hi

Remember a case here a SA regarding a boat manufacturer that copy USA manufacturer design, and was demmanded in USA and all the boats was dissambled causes the design.

About Damásio, he exists, of course. In Mineoro web site you can find his photo. Also they manufactures walkthroughs, food industries detectors, etc. Maybe Mr. Damásio don't speak English, but yes there are persons in Mineoro who speak. (Not me!) Mineoro is the biggest detector factory maybe in all the Americas. You can see all thede securities detectors in http://www.mineoro.com.br

Here factory and persons: http://www.mineoro.com.br/mineoro/sobrenos.php

[Max]

Originally Posted by Nihil Roma Maius

Hi

Remember a case here a SA regarding a boat manufacturer that copy USA manufacturer design, and was demmanded in USA and all the boats was dissambled causes the design.

About Damásio, he exists, of course. In Mineoro web site you can find his photo. Also they manufactures walkthroughs, food industries detectors, etc. Maybe Mr. Damásio don't speak English, but yes there are persons in Mineoro who speak. (Not me!) Mineoro is the biggest detector factory maybe in all the Americas. You can see all thede securities detectors in http://www.mineoro.com.br

Here factory and persons: http://www.mineoro.com.br/mineoro/sobrenos.php

Hi Nihil,
ok ok... maybe it (factory) exist for real and Mr. Damasio too...BUT "Mineoro is the biggest detector factory maybe in all the Americas." WOW MAN
Are big words... if you think at all Americas :

Fisher, Garrett, Tesoro, White's and all the others from US... it's a big family that control (with few other companies from UK and Australia) almost all the world market of MD !

Mineoro could made walktrough, food and bomb detectors too... but this is not a proof that their stuff is good engineered or well designed and even that it work ! Think at LRL...

Or maybe is just advertise... like many fake manifacturers do !

Fact is that in some places, due to political conditions and bad habbits (yes also this... brazil is not an exception, nobody offense, it's a fact) also bad manifacturers (of everything) make good bargains with local politics.

Happens in many places all around the world.

So I think that it's not so difficault win or to obtain a large supply of devices in such places... knowing right people and giving some "extra" to politicians.
Also other institutions like banks or law enforcement agencies there could use that stuff just cause of these "links".

At the moment in brazil any demagogy about autarky and economic self-sufficiency is performed by a neo-communist president. Or not ?

I know that I'm not politically correct, but anyway... that's the big picture!

Maybe mineoro MDs are good, who knows ? Maybe are reengeneering of other things, other wands... etc not so difficault. If chinese can do why not brazilians ? Or they are good cause of good design that time, original design I mean. Also this is possible.

But Mineoro's LRL are what we see here... just a bunch of BS.

And also Mr. Damasio, in the case he exist for real, and about LRL fantasies, is just another story-teller.

Kind regards,
Max

BTW: some pictures just show cad design sketches... not finished devices.

[Nihil Roma Maius]

Security detectors is a great business in Brazil and maybe in the world: airports, banks, factories, government offices, etc. If you can go in vacations to Brazil, you can visit them. Mineoro is the biggest provider of security detectors in Brazil, and shure in SA. Of course, all these securities detectors exists, also Mr. Damásio.

I remember that Mineoro has 2 or 3 factories and labo appart. As they provides a very great quantities of security detectors, in this range maybe is the biggest factory in the Americas.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Earthworm Jim

I agree...

Hi Jim,
I've seen the internal code of the hex you provided...
MCS51 instruction set, as expected.
Arch identified as 90S8515 not 89C2051

But code is fully MCS51 compatible.

Think could run easy on e.g. 90S8515 too and fine... but problem is understand what this stuff serve for.

I think it serves nothing. Just giving some random pulse !

Anyway, I'm not sure of results cause stuff I've used to extract ehm is a bit homemade mod. version of other things... crappy like it or even worse.

Ops I've made reverse engineering ???

Anyway, I'll not publish it cause Damasio could electrocute me from SA.

Have no time for these BS.

Kind regards,
Max

[Delbert grady]

Well Hung, they are taking apart your device to find its secret. Hope someone will discover answer to the dicky spy problem that is so bad on this type of equipement. Especially in UK

[Earthworm Jim]

I can convert it to .bin, also trying to find way to reverse it to .asm?
Any chance?

[Max]

Originally Posted by Earthworm Jim

I can convert it to .bin, also trying to find way to reverse it to .asm?
Any chance?

Hi Jim,
of course you can reverse... ehm with right things!
I've already made... (here, all process took 10-15minutes, cause have to set up some software to do it, real conversion took 2-3seconds) but I think that's not a good idea to post here... for two reasons:

1. I'm not sure of results (already explained)
2. I think that guys there at Mineoro have right to maintain secrecy over their software, even if it's bogus and don't works... that's not the point.

One thing is e.g. giving out the .hex for some reason... trusting e.g. a custmer service guy for a repair... or something like that, another is giving out original source code.

It's like when Microsoft gives you some patch... they don't provide you the full source code of windows or of the patch... just binaries.
Sourcecode is property of Microsoft.

Seems to me incorrect, wrong that I'll post their code here.
Even if I don't trust them as good manifacturer (at least of LRLs).

Of course, if someone there (Damasio ?) say that's ok to post I'll do.

Or we can put the question on vote here and figure out what to do with that stuff in a democratic way.

You have also to understand that when you reverse binary code you have no comments or everything that gives you an idea of what the stuff is intended to do. So you'll have to discover what's going on in software and figure out what kind of I/O the MCU performs, conditional loops and everything. It's up to you, and to do this you have to be a "master of (Atmel's) universe".

Anyway, if yours is just curiosity and want do it yourself it's not so difficault.
I've done under a unix operating system but you can do on others, just you need a good disassembler for the atmels and goodwill.

There is another thing: the possibility of loading all the hex code in an Atmel chip emulator... and see what's the thing really do simulating inputs etc.

Kind regards,
Max

[strujas]

Alexismex you had started something , you should to finish it,, we need a better photo of big board (routing layer) , list of parts for big board and top side of small board, thats a 30 minutes of your time, hurry up.......

[Max]

Originally Posted by strujas

Alexismex you had started something , you should to finish it,, we need a better photo of big board (routing layer) , list of parts for big board and top side of small board, thats a 30 minutes of your time, hurry up.......

Hi Strujas,
don't blame Alexis for that. I think he has good reasons for not posting further details of these parts.

The fact he started a thread here... then finding, after, that was a bad idea couldn't be a constraint to him to post all the rest.

I think that if everything about mineoro's device(s) will be public domain nobody in the universe will never belive such an LRL work anymore.
They'll lose any (residual ?) credit in the world of TH.

So think it will be really strange see some other thing of that.

Just my opinion.

Kind regards,
Max

[strujas]

It's not metter does it work, my opinion is that everything what any of us starts here should be finished, and then we can close that thread...

[Earthworm Jim]

In old,good DOS times, there was Sourcer software for reverse ee on software written for 80xx6 processors...I used it oftenly at the time.
Is there anything simillar for atmels or pic's?

[Max]

Originally Posted by Earthworm Jim

In old,good DOS times, there was Sourcer software for reverse ee on software written for 80xx6 processors...I used it oftenly at the time.
Is there anything simillar for atmels or pic's?

Hi Jim,
yes there are some, for windows now:

one is IDA PRO

http://www.datarescue.com/idabase/

Another is UMPS, but now discontinued ?

http://www.vmdesign.com/



Kind regards,
Max

[gallileo60]

Originally Posted by hung

You people are so amusing almost as child like.
See, characters like this Alexis only contribute in raising our reputation as demented as THr's.
Do you all pay for a new car for instance and then open the engine just to see how the pistons, cylinders, etc. look like?
If you are one like that, sorry pal you should be in an asylum.

This particular model was a short lived model pre fg78. It works but it's much weaker in terms of detection power in relation to the FG79 and 80. It's even weaker than the PDC 210. It was a necessary step towards the completion of the FG series.
It's got an 'Atmel' microcontroler which is not used anymore. The new series don't need it and in fact have more advanced concept.
But again fellows, despite of that this model works (don't know now after open) but it cannnot be replicated. You can assemble it piece for piece. It won't work. That's all I can say.
I will say it one more time. Only a total naive would think the inventors would sell a device which could be replicated. No way. Loose your hope.

I sent Damasio a link of this thread so he could see the pictures. He told me he's really sorry at someone who spends money on a device and then dismantle it. :confused:

Oh my god, that is the funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life....

You cant build it, and make it work, cuz we are magic....Oh my god, im not going to quite laughing for some time to come...

You can copy it, but it wont work, well hell no bright boy, it wont work.....Hahahahahahahahaha, Hung, thank you so much for making my day....You really at the very least should have your own Television show.....Tom