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#151
09-11-2009, 05:19 PM
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I meant what I said, not something different. No argument from me if you don't want it. Best wishes, J_P 
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#152
09-11-2009, 09:49 PM
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In regards to the LRLs in the video. Just what exactly are they allegedly detecting? Are they detecting ions or metal? Evidently, there are those who have the false belief that gold somehow emits ions in a non-laboratory environment. Oddly enough, this phenomenon is called the "halo" effect. In the twenty five years that I have been metal detecting, the myth of the "halo" effect has never been proven in regards to buried gold. The "halo" effect has been the topic of many heated debates. Plausible evidence, that can be validated in the field, has never been produced. In regards to the allegedly buried gold, that was not recovered. I refuse to drink the kool-aid. I am not doubting the honesty of these fellows, only that I didn't see any gold. I did see tin foil that evidently has been tainting the test garden all of these years, without being recovered/removed. Do I have something to hide? Rather cheap shot, eh?
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#153
09-11-2009, 10:26 PM
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Yup, it was kind of a cheap shot. I was trying to get a response. I think we all know you didn't mean anything inflammatory. And you're right, this involves several subjects that always seem to be controversial. But you are asking some interesting things. I don't know what exactly they are detecting. I doubt ions. Maybe some kind of signal associated with the buried metal. I couldn't know for sure unless I made some tests. Even if I made some tests, I doubt I would be able to figure out exactly what they were detecting without spending a long time at it. Halos? I only believe what scientists have proved about them, which isn't much. Most of what we read is speculation or anecdotal stories. But I can tell you for sure that gold does give up ions outside of a laboratory. Scientists and technicians have been measuring gold ions released in the soil now for a couple of decades with enough consistency and accuracy to make a fortune in recovering buried gold. I can show you hundreds of web pages showing examples of this all over the world. I can also show you explanations detailing how chemicals found in the soil accomplish the dissolution of buried gold. But "halo" means different things to different people because there is no standard definition of what the properties are. To me, I consider a column of metal ions rising vertically in the ground above a buried metal object to define a halo. Any other effects are only speculation until someone shows some very consistent and repeatable proof that shows these other properties to be real or not. I certainly don't believe there is a cloud of metal ions hovering in the air above buried metals. But you are right, aside from testing that proves a column of ions dissolves in the soil above buried gold and other metals, I have not seen scientific tests to show any other halo properties. I didn't see any gold recovered in the videos either. I don't think they filmed any gold being recovered. I already said what I saw, so no need repeating it here. Thanks for your input, J_P
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#154
09-12-2009, 03:13 AM
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Could you please show me some examples (websites) where scientists and technicians have been measuring gold ions released by buried treasure? I've been at this for a long time, and have never seen or heard of Scientists testing ions released from reburied gold items. We are talking about reburied gold and such, right? Certainly not raw gold bearing ore or other natural, unprocessed gold, right? I wonder...are natural gold ions the same as gold ions that have been tainted by heating, melting and blending of other metals? I also have to wonder if silver products (like the one found in the video) ions change after the silver is processed by heat and adding other metals into the mix. I am looking forward to seeing those websites, where Scientists have made a fortune by locating buried treasures.
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#155
09-12-2009, 04:49 AM
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Hello forum
"I am sorry, but the videos posted are not impressive in any way. They show two guys with gadgets that beep intermittently when walking straight towards a pile of rocks. The video shows a conventional metal detector that intermittently beeps at the same pile of rocks. Silverpaper, which could be aluminum or tin foil, is dug in the video. It is hard to hold a rational discussion when other members of this forum apparently have more information than others viewing the videos. We know there is gold buried there because…? Who knows. The videos speak for themselves. I did not see any gold being recovered. This is what i am thinking, this video are very poor in realization, if i will go to see a friend many miles away to make a test , i will make a GOOD TEST for the GOOD GEOTECH FORUM , i see the videos many times to really have a objective thinking but GUYS you make many efforts to make the videos to put them in you tube etc... but for POOR VIDEO info to us .... I will say you make a GOOD VIDEO of 3 minutes JUST one but with the test result not aluminum paper and not with a standart metal vlf detector (ALL of us KNOW the sound of VLF detectors ...please keep it away next time )...JUST make a simple GOOD TEST ... and i did not say nothing that you make a fake test ... you did not ..... but I thank you very much for your time and work for us in geotech forum .... PLEASE ....if you really have a good LRL with.... FOR ME ONE METER DISTANCE for any metal inground..... give us a simple video which explain the phenomenum ,OK  not the schematic of any kind ....I just want SEE THE PHENOMENUM !!!!! of detecting at a small distance ......Alexis.
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#156
09-12-2009, 05:26 AM
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I will start a new thread for the examples so we don't fill up this thread with metal ion stuff, and people can talk about videos here. Best wishes, J_P
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#157
09-12-2009, 12:43 PM
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Maybe the guys who created this video will step-up and lets us know just exactly what they are detecting. Ions or metal. I feel as if I am talking to a third party. Not that I don't enjoy talking to you JP...but, I get the feeling I am chatting with a spokesperson or a salesperson and not the persons ultimately responsible for the videos. However, I am looking forward to reading reliable references and verifiable sources about Scientists and Technicians that have made a fortune recovering reburied gold by "sniffing" the vertical column of ions streaming up from the earth. Reburied gold...unknown buried treasure and the like.
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#158
09-12-2009, 01:59 PM
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But what do you mean for detection ions ? Detecting them directly or by some secondary, side effect ??? the first I think not... the last instead is possible... why not ? Suppose the stuff it detects (if it works, of course) is a side effect of ions in the soil... will you say that it's detecting ions ?  Kind regards, Max
__________________
"Kill for gain or shoot to maim... But we dont need a reason " someone said...
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#159
09-12-2009, 02:54 PM
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Just exactly what are these detectors detecting...I have no idea. All I know about these gizmos is what I have seen in this thread. I have no knowledge as what they are supposed to be detecting. I have read the claims of the Mineoro, and can only assume the other units are supposed to use the same principle of sniffing out ions from longtime buried processed gold. Not natural gold-ore....but gold that has been smelted, reworked and other metals added. Same applies to processed silver, I assume. Jim
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#160
09-13-2009, 02:27 AM
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You were talking to a third party. That's exactly what I was doing, speaking in place of what Morgan might have done. Why? It's a bit of a story. Bear with me and maybe you will be able to understand. I have been interested in having someone show me any LRL working to recover buried metal things for the past couple of years. I have offered several times tol post videos on a professional web page with links to all the major treasure hunting forums including Geotech for anyone who will come to where I am and demonstrate their LRL working. I would want to try it with my own hands, and to see if I was convinced it was working. If I was impressed with what it does, I would probably buy one for myself. But nobody has taken me up on that offer. The closest hope was RangerTell, who claimed their demonstrator contact nearby would not answer his emails. When I heard Morgan would hold a demonstration, I encouraged him to proceed. Realizing that I would not be able to attend to see for myself, I also encouraged him to post videos so we could see what happened in the demonstrations. You saw my posts asking people to go see his demonstration. But remember, Morgan does not speak English as his first language. He is prone to derive meanings from what he reads that were not intended, And we see in some of his posts, he can misinterpret the intent of others sometimes. As the time came closer for his demonstration, I could see there were already posts being made that would discourage him from inviting others to see, and maybe would cause him to not post any videos for the general public. I thought it would be worthwhile for all to be able to see these videos, whether they believe or not, at least so they could see what happened there. This is why you see a lot of posts by me leading up to the demonstration and continuing after the videos were posted. I wanted to keep the criticism to a minimum at least long enough for Morgan to feel comfortable posting the videos, and ansering questions about the details. At this point, Morgan has posted his videos and answered all the details to a point where I doubt we will hear much more from him. Partly because of language barriers and cultural differences, I doubt Morgan feels enamored at the general response he reads. I speculate he interprets questions to be accusations, which they are not. But for whatever reason, lt appears he has finished with his demonstration and videos. So my part is done in clearing a way for him to post his videos and hold some sort of dialogue with other forum members. I stepped to the side just after Theseus's last post offering a different point of view. I would also like to see a lot more testing to find out what is being detected exactly. I doubt this will happen soon. Anyway, check with Morgan and other LRL proponents to get your answers. My knowledge is mostly science-based, and I will tell you clouds of gold ions don't exist in the air if you ask me. You can get plenty of proof ion clouds exist from people like Dr. hung, if that is what you are looking for. I will be starting the new thread I promised soon. I will show the things I talked about in my post. If you are looking for something different than what I said I would show you, then maybe you will be disappointed. But wait till I round up the web links and see what you think. Best wishes, J_P
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#161
09-13-2009, 02:50 AM
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#162
09-13-2009, 03:31 AM
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I never offered to show you the links to scientists measuring ions released from "reburied" gold. These are links that you are assuming I am willing to post here, but I am not. What I offered is to show you web pages where scientists and technicians have been measuring gold ions released in the soil for a couple of decades with enough consistency and accuracy to make a fortune in recovering buried gold. I also offered to show you links that show explanations detailing how chemicals found in the soil accomplish the dissolution of buried gold. I have no interest in proving the truth or falsehood of some anecdotal stories about huge signals from metal detectors that return to normal signals after a buried article is dug up. If this is what you are looking for, then it is your mission, not mine. You could ask Max about this. He may be able to give you some good information. But I will be happy to show you some scientific proof that gold does dissolve when exposed to chemicals found naturally in the soil, and forms ions that travel upward to the surface. This is proof that gold is not inert when buried, only resistant to corrosion from most natural chemicals. Another question you asked is about gold ions... off the top of my head, gold ions show the same behavior whether they came from re-heated and work-hardened gold or from native gold found in the ground. A gold ion in the simplest form is a gold atom which has a charge because of missing electron(s). Gold ions also exist in the form of molecules where the gold atom is attached to another element or more, and the molecule carries a charge. Both kinds of gold ions can be derived from either native gold or from reburied gold that was previously melted, alloyed, or work hardened. For purposes of studying gold ions that corrode from buried metallic gold objects, the important gold ions would include aurocyanide and sulfur complexes which suspend gold ions. There are also some organic acids associated with the gold ions discovered in the ground by scientists. The strange thing about these gold ions is they were observed to travel upward from buried gold objects until they nearly reach the surface of the soil before becoming bound with other soil constituents where they ceased to be ions. But I need to ask. Should I post the links to the web pages for gold ions in the soil as I described above, or have you lost interest? Best wishes, J_P
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#164
09-13-2009, 01:19 PM
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__________________
"Kill for gain or shoot to maim... But we dont need a reason " someone said...
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#165
09-13-2009, 01:37 PM
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Although useful to the gold mining industry, boring holes and testing for gold ions is not necessarily useful in searching for a buried saddlebag full of gold coins. Alternatively, if you do have some links in regards to specific ion analysis done on gold and silver coins, as well as jewelry (ancient or modern) that would be interesting. Not raw gold or raw gold byproducts. Thanks, Jim
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#166
09-13-2009, 06:28 PM
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Don't you mean they are of no use to you? You are not speaking for all metal detecting/treasure hunting hobbyist, right? It seems odd, when I offer proof to show your statement about gold ions outside a laboratory is not true, you don't want to see any proof. Seems like you only want to see proof about stuff you believe....Kind of one sided, eh? I do have links to specific ion analysis done on relatively modern manufactured gold items that were buried by scientists studying the subject which show the reburied gold articles release ions into the soil. But I never offered to post links to reburied gold, nor am I willing to. Maybe you will be able to find those web pages using search engines. I am sure if you find these web pages that prove there are ions being given off by reburied gold, then unlike me, you will anxiously post them here, right? Anyway, I won't start a new thread unless somebody is interested in seeing some scientific proof that gold is not inert, and produces a column of ions that rise in the soil above it. Best wishes, J_P
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