Free energy - HHO

[ivconic]

I already made few experiments on this subject. It is interesting and could be elaborated more.... For a start i am posting here very nice article with project.
My respect to author!

[ivconic]

IRFP064N...! What a fet!??
This schematic is real "eyecatching" to me and itch me to try it in setup for quite different purposes (maybe will need minor modifications)!
Guess which one?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by ivconic

IRFP064N...! What a fet!??
This schematic is real "eyecatching" to me and itch me to try it in setup for quite different purposes (maybe will need minor modifications)!
Guess which one?

Tesla coil?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ivconic

IRFP064N...! What a fet!??
This schematic is real "eyecatching" to me and itch me to try it in setup for quite different purposes (maybe will need minor modifications)!
Guess which one?

Ah! breaking water molecules

[ivconic]

P. I.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by ivconic

P. I.

Don't stand too close to the coil!

[ivconic]

Yes PI!
TX part.
Reading so many threads on PI subject, man can oftenly see demands for more irradiated power at some PI designs...(everybody want to beat Lorenz!!!)
So...voila! Here it is, simple and elegant solution!
If you ever asked yourself how to draw 30-50 amperes with PI coil....well...here is solution how to!
It will not only detect deep - it will also "bake" detected item in soil, in no time!
Luckilly it has current limiting preset!
Main catch here is in fet features! Ha! Just read those in datasheet. I am fully awared there are many more simillar fets on market, and possibly even better than this one. But we are usually dealing here with most conventional (you may say ordinary) material and components ...so this and simllar components with advanced features are rather out of our primary focus....meaning - people like myself - amateurs and enthusiasts with limited budget...

[ivconic]

This fet is very convenient due its ultra low on resistance. I was thinking; if it can hold low water resistances in HHO setups...than it would not be an issue to hold usuall PI coil resistances at all...
Pretty convenient for fast PI's with pps over 2kHz and possibly more!
Need to be investigated more...

[J_Player]

After reading the posts in this thread, I see how this circuit could result in a very high current PI metal detector. Perhaps this will be the beginning of a very deep seeking coil that finds treasures that other detectors cannot find. Because the current is so much larger than other designs allow, this design could be a significant move beyond the point of diminishing returns that is dictated by the properties of current in a coil for broadcasting a magnetic field.

But, I wonder...
The original purpose of this circuit was to generate hydrogen and oxygen from a tank of water a safe way that does not damage an automotive alternator. The pupose behind this design is to save money buying fuel for your car. My question is this:
Has anyone in this forum ever tried putting an HHO generator on their car and measured the net results?

I am wondering if the overall effect of using an HHO generator resulted in buying less fuel for your car or not. Does anyone have any results to post here?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by J_Player

But, I wonder...
The original purpose of this circuit was to generate hydrogen and oxygen from a tank of water a safe way that does not damage an automotive alternator. The pupose behind this design is to save money buying fuel for your car. My question is this:
Has anyone in this forum ever tried putting an HHO generator on their car and measured the net results?

I am wondering if the overall effect of using an HHO generator resulted in buying less fuel for your car or not. Does anyone have any results to post here?

Best wishes,
J_P

From the reports I have read on these devices the engine needs to be slightly re-tuned. When you combine this with the fact, that the driver is now unconsciously driving more carefully, the result is a reduction in fuel consumption that most likely has no connection with the HHO device. The only real water-powered car worth looking at is the one from Stanley Meyer.

There are claims that the HHO mixture contains as much as 5x the energy that was needed to fracture the water molecules in the first place. If this is the case, then you could simply run an internal combustion engine using only HHO (apparently this does work) and use it to drive an alternator to charge the battery that powers the water fracturing circuit. As long as the efficiency of the ICE + alternator is greater than 20%, this setup should run indefinitely, provided you continue to supply it with water. If not, then it would be more efficient to use the battery to directly drive an electric motor that turns the wheels, and cut out the inefficient ICE completely.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

From the reports I have read on these devices the engine needs to be slightly re-tuned. When you combine this with the fact, that the driver is now unconsciously driving more carefully, the result is a reduction in fuel consumption that most likely has no connection with the HHO device. The only real water-powered car worth looking at is the one from Stanley Meyer.

There are claims that the HHO mixture contains as much as 5x the energy that was needed to fracture the water molecules in the first place. If this is the case, then you could simply run an internal combustion engine using only HHO (apparently this does work) and use it to drive an alternator to charge the battery that powers the water fracturing circuit. As long as the efficiency of the ICE + alternator is greater than 20%, this setup should run indefinitely, provided you continue to supply it with water. If not, then it would be more efficient to use the battery to directly drive an electric motor that turns the wheels, and cut out the inefficient ICE completely.

Hi,
yes...
but seems the energy produced is not 5x the energy needed to break water... that's why he was found fraudolent by the Ohio court in 1996...

in other words... the Meyer's claims never has been confirmed to be real... the court found they were fake.

or you read it different ?

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Yes PI!
TX part.
Reading so many threads on PI subject, man can oftenly see demands for more irradiated power at some PI designs...(everybody want to beat Lorenz!!!)
So...voila! Here it is, simple and elegant solution!
If you ever asked yourself how to draw 30-50 amperes with PI coil....well...here is solution how to!
It will not only detect deep - it will also "bake" detected item in soil, in no time!
Luckilly it has current limiting preset!
Main catch here is in fet features! Ha! Just read those in datasheet. I am fully awared there are many more simillar fets on market, and possibly even better than this one. But we are usually dealing here with most conventional (you may say ordinary) material and components ...so this and simllar components with advanced features are rather out of our primary focus....meaning - people like myself - amateurs and enthusiasts with limited budget...

Hi,
the problem was never having large currents at coils... one can also give 100A pulses (short) to the coil using solid state devices (and not only), but the problem is indeed the power needed to run such kind of MD...

I mean.... if you usually run 4-5A (sometimes more) on single pulses at coil and that requires you a gel-type battery of few A/h capacity... then what you'll need to drive that stuff at 20 times (more or less) usual power ?
Also, you usually run depth PIs in the hundreds Hz pulse-repetition stuff... but if plan to run it at 2Khz means you will need more and more power...

I think you could need a 100A/h battery to stay safe about consumption... but these are heavy car-like stuff!

You'll need an handcart to drive your PI over soil....

But... indeed it will locate stuff at big depth... no dubts!

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

The only real water-powered car worth looking at is the one from Stanley Meyer.

Hmmm... I thought the Stanley steamer was the only water-power car worth looking at. Or maybe the Doble.

Originally Posted by Max

in other words... the Meyer's claims never has been confirmed to be real... the court found they were fake.

or you read it different ?

This is what I mean. When I read all the claims and the proof offered to convince people to buy HHO generators, ti looks a lot like the proof I see offered to convince people to buy LRLs. I mean, I haven't seen any reports by any respected testing labs showing reports how cars are saving 10-35% on their fuel bills. These are just claims by HHO promoters.

It does not seem likely that the energy to separate hydrogen from oxygen in water is less than the energy released when they are recombined. This is because of the law of conservation. If it were true, then we would have perpetual motion and free energy by using an efficient method of burning the gases. Generators/alternators can be made to run in the 80% efficient range. Let's suppose we have a generator that runs 80% efficient at it's design speed and load, and a steam turbine powered by a fire from the hydrogen and oxygen. Most of these stationary steam turbines run better than 30% efficient when measured by comparing the power produced to the fuel energy in the fuel. If the generator was powered by the steam turbine, then the efficiency of the system would be over 24% (over 30% x 80% = over 24%). Let's say 1/4 of the energy supplied by gases us converted into electric power. Then if it is true that the HHO gas requires 1/5 of the power it produces when burnt in order to separate water into the gases, you have a net gain in power left over --- 24% - 20% = 4& free power. Actually, steam turbine powered electric generators are usually better than 30% efficient, so I would expect the net gain to be more than 4%. But none of this seems possible because it has violated the law of conservation of energy.

I figure that if I can't read anything written by an established agency that confirms HHO generators are doing what they are claimed to do, then maybe I should ask people who have used them to see what their experience has been. The proof for these HHO generators seem so similar to the reports from LRL promoters that really really really prove LRLs work.

Best wishes.
J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
yes...
but seems the energy produced is not 5x the energy needed to break water... that's why he was found fraudolent by the Ohio court in 1996...

in other words... the Meyer's claims never has been confirmed to be real... the court found they were fake.

or you read it different ?

Kind regards,
Max

That's why I suggested that anyone who believes the HHO mixture has 5x the energy input needs to close the energetic loop. It's the only real way to prove it.

I think the pseudo-theory is that the water fracturing method uses less energy than is released, in a similar way to splitting the atom, except that this is splitting the molecule (of water). However, if this was true, I suspect we would already have water-powered cars.

[Max]

Yes, indeed, closing the loop will make the proof of what's true and what's not...

I already know the answer so will sit on my arm chair... and let people experiment... but I'm sure it's J.A.A.F.P. just another already failed project

Kind regards,
Max

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
the problem was never having large currents at coils... one can also give 100A pulses (short) to the coil using solid state devices (and not only), but the problem is indeed the power needed to run such kind of MD...
Max

Hi Max,
One could use Lithium Polymer batteries,they are cheap now and can supply up to 35 time their amperange, you can easily find them at small size with 2700mah,wich means continuous current of almost 100A.
Of course wont long last, but what is the mean current of a powerfull PI?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Max

the problem was never having large currents at coils... one can also give 100A pulses (short) to the coil using solid state devices (and not only), but the problem is indeed the power needed to run such kind of MD...

Hi Max,
Maybe this could work on large coils used to find big treasures or meteorites. These large coils are sometimes towed by a vehicle with an engine, and could easily carry a lot of spare marine batteries or a generator to run the circuit. The problem is still that the added current in the coil does not make a a difference in depth equal to the increase in current. So the gains in depth are only a small percent of the added current. Maybe this is worthwhile for people who want the last degree of performance.

Best wishes,
J_P

[Max]

Originally Posted by Fred

Hi Max,
One could use Lithium Polymer batteries,they are cheap now and can supply up to 35 time their amperange, you can easily find them at small size with 2700mah,wich means continuous current of almost 100A.
Of course wont long last, but what is the mean current of a powerfull PI?

Hi,
most powerful PIs I remember are from Eric Foster designs... and have typically around 450-500ma consumption on hand-held kind... like deepstar things.

But here we are talking of well higher power... I think 2700mah batteries are not enough, maybe 100Ah is more realistic if wanna e.g. at least 8 hours of sure running on single battery pack... considering 10% duty cycle at tx pulse vs period.

But much depends on what really will be params like frequency... cause at higher frequency the duty-cycle is normally fairly higher (that's the case of Eric Foster's design of above... running around 3000Hz).

So things can be worse... and battery will last few hours in that case...

but carring a 100Ah battery for several hours...is not for everyone I think... maybe we need swarzy

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hi Max,
Maybe this could work on large coils used to find big treasures or meteorites. These large coils are sometimes towed by a vehicle with an engine, and could easily carry a lot of spare marine batteries or a generator to run the circuit. The problem is still that the added current in the coil does not make a a difference in depth equal to the increase in current. So the gains in depth are only a small percent of the added current. Maybe this is worthwhile for people who want the last degree of performance.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hi,
yes, I agree.... it could be very useful for meteorite search , both in deserts and e.g. antartic regions... along with a good magnetometer with fast reading... the vehicle could carry everything... including THs so the problem doesn't exist in that case.

The increase in performance is 2x depth (roughly) for a 64x increase in transmitted EM pulse... so it's real battery drain I think... but could be usueful in such situations where e.g. a meteorite could be also at 20meters or more under sand or ice...

Also, I know of a very big nugget found in south california using a 4wd vehicle + suspended metal detector coil.... so would be a nice idea for people who wanna use for that purpose. Same apply to Australian folks.

But for handheld will be a real pain trying to encapsulate all such power in some battery of reasonable weight... I see no way it could be really made.

Kind regards,
Max

[peroon]

Originally Posted by Max

Hi,
most powerful PIs I remember are from Eric Foster designs... and have typically around 450-500ma consumption on hand-held kind... like deepstar things.

But here we are talking of well higher power... I think 2700mah batteries are not enough, maybe 100Ah is more realistic if wanna e.g. at least 8 hours of sure running on single battery pack... considering 10% duty cycle at tx pulse vs period.

But much depends on what really will be params like frequency... cause at higher frequency the duty-cycle is normally fairly higher (that's the case of Eric Foster's design of above... running around 3000Hz).

So things can be worse... and battery will last few hours in that case...

but carring a 100Ah battery for several hours...is not for everyone I think... maybe we need swarzy

Kind regards,
Max

Now i also know how to name new PI - "Conan the Barbarian!"

"...we need swarzy..." - Schwartznshnitzll the Arny!

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Max

The increase in performance is 2x depth (roughly) for a 64x increase in transmitted EM pulse...

Hmmm...
Maybe a 500A pulse running through a 5mm wire thickness on the coil...
probably would not burn up the coil if the pulse was short.
I wonder if air cooling would work?
But then look at the depth you could get... maybe 15x?

Best wishes,
J_P

[Fred]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hmmm...
Maybe a 500A pulse running through a 5mm wire thickness on the coil...
probably would not burn up the coil if the pulse was short.
I wonder if air cooling would work?
But then look at the depth you could get... maybe 15x?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hope the EMP will not destroy every electronic device in a 200m radius

[Max]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Hmmm...
Maybe a 500A pulse running through a 5mm wire thickness on the coil...
probably would not burn up the coil if the pulse was short.
I wonder if air cooling would work?
But then look at the depth you could get... maybe 15x?

Best wishes,
J_P

Hmmmm..... can use liquid nytrogen I think... and so better if the coil will become then a superconducting thing!

No losses, no heat... nice...

That way we have (virtually) no energy waste from thermal effects and just whole energy become EM pulse... cool!

But I think will cost really much to cool that stuff using liquid nytrogen or similar things... expecially the coil housing must be made using special materials... but why not, I think it's possible.

If you sum that with the fact e.g. polar expeditions for meteorite searches cost millions of dollars... I think the MD cost will not be a real issue.

I think also 100A pulsed is possible at reasonable price with air cooling and very thick coil (the weight is not an issue).

Kind regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by Fred

Hope the EMP will not destroy every electronic device in a 200m radius

Hmmmm....

you can use shielding materials... I think 500A produced pulse is not so hi indeed as EMP.

A simple method to know if you can cook electronics stuff is near a welding station: some uses low voltage and very hi-current in the order of also 500A.

In TIG soldering that's not so common but it's not impossible finding welding/soldering stuff that works in the 500A range on continuos current.

That's method used e.g. to solder parts of aircrafts and similar hi-value vehicles (TIG is very expensive and not justified for everyday soldering) of expecially hard-to-solder alloys like Aluminium-based stuff (but not only).

Now... these stuff are in many places in the world... New York, Tokio etc and I never heard of an EMP that destroyed anything cause of that EMP during operations, when current falls down from 500A to zero.

Other and easier way to se EMP is not a problem...

Many car/truck batteries have peak power of hundred Amperes. I personally own some rated 700-800A peak!

Now the test is about easy (but need to be brave enough) ...find a working cellphone you can risk... then put it over the battery.... then find a fence-like thick iron/metallic wire ...say 3-4mm diameter and 1 meter long....
now (after protecting yourself with thick gloves, safety glasses, possibly mask, adequate cloths, protective screen etc etc ) TRY TO SHORT THE BATTERY WITH THE 1M WIRE !

The wire will become red-hot and melt... and at melting circuit will break and you'll got several hundreds amperes for the EMP... on sigle turn...

Then... (if survive to the sparks and acid boiling/explosion of battery) you could check the phone for damages...

Indeed happened to me as side effect of a small car repair attempt... and a thick cable litterally vaporized that way!

A large EMP was produced BUT still my phone that was just aside the battery is up and running!

Now... that's for 1turn... so say it was something more than 500A/turn EMP... if not convinced by that try with insulated wire... wind 20-30 turns of small diameter... say half-meter and try... you'll get higher magnetic field collapse but I'm sure the cellphone will survive too!

The really dangerous EMP are thousand or millions times these funky experiments and are generated only at fast-nuclear-reactions... cause of the tremendous energy release of fission/fusion of nuclear fuel in a nuke-weapon that happens in milliseconds.

One such EMP from russian "toy" (tsar) fired in the Artic blocked entire world radio communications... for about 6hours... but that was in that cold-war years... when US and Soviets tested BIG stuff in the atmosphere...or seawater, before the official ban of such kind of experiments.

Kind regards,
Max

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Max

In TIG soldering that's not so common but it's not impossible finding welding/soldering stuff that works in the 500A range on continuos current.

Sure .. that is done all the time. The older TIG welders used a transformer that converted 220VAC to about 40VAC. The current from the secondary was sent through a saturable core reactor. This is kind of like an adjustable choke. By passing DC through the control coil, you can saturate the core, so it will not allow more current to pass from the main AC coil that passes the 40V welding power. The welder power control adjusts the saturable core reactor control coil to set the maximum current that can pass at the welding tip on the TIG welder.

More modern TIG welders use very large thyristors to control the current. Instead of weighing 800 Lbs, they can be carried by hand, and are the size of maybe two large PC boxes. In either the old version or newer TIG welders, there are many air cooled cables that carry the current to the tip. These air cooled TIG welders are usually up to about 175 amps. They have a 40 % duty cycle or less before the cables get too hot. Most serious TIG welders have water cooling. The #8 cable is inside a hose that has a continuous flow of water through it to carry away heat from the conductor. This water is usually recirculated in a 10 gallon tank, or can be discharged to a drain.

But here is an idea for getting your 500 amp pulse to the search coil.
This method will only work for a PI detector that is towed with a vehicle that contains the power and circuitry on the vehicle:

There are high power thyristors and SCRs used in large power controllers. Some can carry over 200 A at 220VAC. Start by mounting a large electric generator on the back of your 4-wheel drive truck. Then put the power circuitry alongside the generator. We will use a 220 VAC mains from the generator and rectify it to 220VDC, then send it to a huge capacitor bank. The capacitors must be very large. The kind used for Tesla coils, lasers, etc. So the capacitors have a large capacity, and a large supply to feed them.

Next, connect your SCR or thyristor circuitry to create the pulses from the 220 v charged capacitors. These pulses will be sent to a transformer with a secondary of 12 v. Now since we are sending DC to the transformer, we do not expect an output except from the leading and trailing edge of the pulse. So, the idea is to keep the pulse short... in the range of the time needed for the secondary to finish producing a full voltage spike, then terminate the pulse, andd watch the returned eddy currents from treasure after. The coil can be a 5mm solid copper wire passed through a 6mm teflon tube. I think a 30cm dia coil with about 4-5 turns could beworkable for air cooling. (this will be a small treasure finding machine... The 3 meter dia coil is for true LRL usage).

Now let's see... at 220V and 200 A passing from the capacitor to the 12 v transformer primary, we have up to 44KW of power moving in the coil for a very short time. But more important, the current can be up to 3666 amps, depending on the resistance of the coil and any resistor added. But regardless of how much added current, I bet you see some real deep treasures.

Best wishes,
J_P