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#76
08-05-2007, 12:09 AM
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Hi Qiaozhi,
Behind all this pissing contest, there was some real science presented in the LRL forum. Have you formed any opinions or ideas yet about ions or microbes in the soil? This research has been around for a long time, but not many people made any connection to locating treasures except some mining companies. Maybe it is not possible for hobbyists to develop any electronics that are truly effective in detecting these subterranean ion activities. Any ideas? Best wishes, J_P 
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#77
08-05-2007, 03:12 AM
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Who needs Electronics?
  No Batteries, No electronics, weighs 4 1/2 ozs. Discriminates to, and detects Gold only at ranges to 100 yards. That's a fact! NOT FOR SALE! Dell
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#79
08-05-2007, 07:16 AM
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Who needs Electronics?
The majority of people who have ever tried a bent rod style LRL and discovered they did not locate treasure would like an electronic locator that works. This majority of people are tired of hearing excuses like "interference, sunspots, solar flares, deteriorated conditions, can’t differentiate between a speck and a ton", and other excuses why the bent rod equipment didn't work. This majority of people are tired of wishing they could have their money back for instruments that are unable to show them where treasure is after months of practicing and trying every method suggested by the manufacturer. This majority of people would be happy to use a real electronic instrument that locates the treasure without having some LRL manufacturer tell them that they are just too stupid to figure out how to use the bent rod style locator. These majority of people would be happy to use an electronic locator that works after watching victims of LRL sales waste months searching in vain and finding nothing except gravity. Shall I continue with further details? Best wishes, J_P
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#80
08-05-2007, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
you know I totally agree on microbes and gold ions generation in soil due e.g. to chemical... don't think I'm talking of the whole context as fake. I'm not. But I want to indicate where real fakes that are here... Just this. All the scientific points of view are welcome to me. I'm open mind person, even if a bit critic vs some manifacturers here... and their supporters. Kind regards, Max
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#81
08-05-2007, 07:48 AM
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Esteban, ok ok maybe I've a "bit" exagerated with my critics here... sorry if someone feels bad about that. Fact is that I'm tired of reading all the same stuff... about spark-gaps and some other funny things that are tuot as TRUTH, but aren't, couldn't be. I think you are a seriuos person... so why you support such theories too??? (but what's that stuff you holds ???) Kind regards, Max
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#82
08-05-2007, 10:30 AM
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Why support experimenting?
Why would a serious person support theories of electronic locating? Maybe it has something to do with ions in the soil.
Metal ions in the soil = electricity When we have a chemical reaction involving metals, we usually see an electrical consequence. Consider the case of a battery. A chemical reaction inside the battery results in a voltage produced at the terminals of the battery. The voltage wants electrons to flow to the opposite terminal of the battery in order to allow the chemical reaction to continue and reach an equilibrium where the battery is fully discharged and has no more driving force to push electrons. The chemical action on metals beneath the ground also causes an electrical consequence. But metals under the ground are not in the same condition as metals inside a battery. These metals have no terminals designed to collect the electrons and feed them toward an opposite terminal for purposes of harnessing electricity. Metals in the ground that form ions due to chemical action are at the mercy of the ground environment for flow of electricity. In the ground, ions in solution can move with the moisture in the ground, and can react chemically with the local salts and other constituents of the electrolyte in the soil. Because this "ground battery" condition is not optimized for producing power, we can expect a very small current flow, and depending on what metal has ionized, we can expect a very small amount of ions dissolved in the soil. These are scientific facts, as reported by reesearchers who observed these phenomenon happening deep in the ground. Gold ions are usually fewer than other metal ions As long as there are chemicals in the ground that can act on gold and other metals, these metals will continue to corrode and dissolve into the soil in order to reach a chemical and electrical equilibrium. For some metals this can be relatively fast. Metals like iron, silver, and aluminum can dissolve relatively fast in a corrosive environment. But when we look at metals like gold and platinum, ordinary chemical reagents don't have much of a corrosive effect, and we see that microbes must excrete traces of cyanide and other chemicals to have any effect at all. It is the presence of these trace chemicals that allows trace amounts of noble metals to become soluble ions. Soil ions are in nano-amounts and cause nano-current flows All of this electrical activity under the ground happens in small amounts that are hard to measure. Further, if we wanted to measure the current from gold ions, a simple nano-ammeter probe in the soil would not tell us if we were measuring gold ions or nearby silver ions, or any other metal that was forming ions in the vicinity. It would not tell us if there were other chemical reactions happening in the soil that were causing a current flow. We could use logic to reason that an area contains no measurable groud currents except in one location, therefore it is likely there is some metal buried in that location. If we are lucky, maybe we find a treasure there, or maybe an old horse shoe. Does the electric field of the atmosphere react? Another electrical consequence of ions in the ground is the reaction of the static field of the atmosphere. There is a 100v/meter electric field at the surface of the earth. The total current flow leaking through the atmosphere on earth is about 2000 amps. Only a tiny portion of this current is located in any small plot of land. Thus we are looking at a high voltage/low current field at the surface of the earth. Now keep in mind, we are looking at a fairly uniform field in the air where the air is the insulator for the current to leak through, and the negative terminal is the earth. Do you suppose there are any physical anomalies that could influence the current flow or the shape of this field? Do you suppose an area of ionized soil surrounded by non-ionized soil would be more conductive, and allow more atmospheric current to leak toward the ionized area? Small signals require special designs Does this give you some ideas why people like Esteban construct electronic devices to locate anomalies that some consider to be static detectors? Does this high voltage/low current flow of atmospheric electricity bring any ideas to mind why you would try a small Tesla coil to transmit/receive rather than using simple battery voltage? Is the direct approach the best? If a person is of a simple mind, he might look to build a simple electric field anomaly detector, which might tell him the location where the atmospheric field is changed. If a more sophisticated experimenter built a device that combined chemical or microbe sampling with an electric field detector, he would have much better success at locating desireable targets. The problem with soil samples is the time and precision involved. Maybe somebody will figure a way to make this simpler. But for now, nobody has come up with a simple method of measuring parts per billion of gold, or to quickly identify gold-eating microbes with their treasure hunting machines. Could indirect methods work better? But what about other physical phenomenon that could be measured? Have we ever considered that there are quite a few more secondary phenomenon that are measurable as a result of buried metal locations? Is it possible that the best instruments utilize one or more of the secondary phenomenon in order to function? Look at the way astronomers identify the presence of different elements on distant stars. They don't take physical samples or use metal detectors. They measure secondary phenomenon associated with the elements that can be reliably used to identify them. The same is true for geo-science instruments. Geologists use an array of instruments to identify what's beneath the ground from echo-imaging to induced polarization. While these methods may not be applicable to the problem of constructing an electronic machine to locate buried treasure at long distance, the concept of looking beyond a direct measurement could be very useful. What to measure? In addition to the earth's static field that could be influenced by local hot spots of metal ions in the soil, there are energies from deep in the earth and from space that cause nuclear changes passing through the same soil, and there is all kinds of radio noise from natural and man made sources in the air that is influenced by the conductivity of the atmosphere. There are also other secondary phenomenon that may be beyond the capabilities of the average experimenter in this forum. The information I put in this post could suggest at least five approaches to experimenting with new electronic methods to locate a buried target. If we are experimenters who can only build electronic circuits per known schematic designs, then there is no hope to develop a new method. But for those electronic experimenters with some vision and understanding of the real science involved in parts per billion concentrations of ions in the soil, the technology is available today to tap into the real signals that point to the treasure. Best wishes, J_P
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#83
08-05-2007, 04:35 PM
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J_Player
You're RIGHT! Secondary phenomenom is the key. Sensitive electrometers demands a kind of shielding or own "atmosphere" as in the old glass vacuum tube. Also can helps preionized gold. Smoke detectors with Americium 241 can be usable. How appears gold in nuclear reactor, the modern Alchemy: http://www.chemsoc.org/ExemplarChem/...bb/modern.html
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#84
08-05-2007, 05:36 PM
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I don't know what it takes to get Scientific pretenders to do field research and learn that. "What has already been done, is an established fact and is repeatable under the same conditions. Dell
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#86
08-06-2007, 02:56 AM
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Hi Geo.
Thanks very much. But, can't return. Maybe if the people participate seriously here. Nihil Roma said the truth about patent and design, but this is not international. So, is very difficult to show. Include, TV demonstration exist about electronic LRL. Some people must be appart his clown pics, because they can convert in one of this. TV demonstration:
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#88
08-06-2007, 04:02 AM
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__________________
HH Rudy, MXT, HeadHunter Wader Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda
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#89
08-06-2007, 05:32 AM
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 Carl, would probably look at it and call it a dowsing device. He calls anything beyond his limited knowledge of physics a dowsing device, and therefore by assumption, and appearances alone he tries to decieve his loyal followers and the public by authoritively proclaiming Dowsing devices don't work, so this device can't work either. O.K. I know about Carl, he's been barking up my tail for years with false allegations. Let's see how smart the rest of you think you are?  Is the device in the photo I posted a Dowsing device and it will not discriminate to Gold only, any better than a person chance guessing the type of a buried target OR, it is NOT a dowsing device and it does really discriminate to Gold only from a distance and works within the laws of physics and based on Scientific principles as I claim it to be?? Dell
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#90
08-06-2007, 08:22 AM
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why do you feel so irritate of my stupid shows !? Just jokes, but they aren't important. What's important is understand if there are fake claims here. Can you can detect a coin on surface soil from meters away using a metal detector ? Demonstrate it! You said that patent/design aren't international, ok. I understand. (well the inventor could also ask for international patent if it's worth... but anyway) But what do you offer to confirm Nihil claims ? Just another funny picture here... Me too can bring a microphone on and hold in my hand a box with some radio antenna... and then ? These are the facts, my friend ? You'll gain credit here not posting that pictures (even if funny) but posting facts, like your friend Nihil. Kind regards, Max
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#91
08-06-2007, 08:21 PM
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Man, you're confused. What is proof? If you post your detector with you, I can say: this is not proof, you make a scenification, tricks.
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#92
08-06-2007, 10:55 PM
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 There's enough subject matter here for a thesis in psychology. No batteries, no electronics ... no brain! Get real.
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#93
08-07-2007, 07:53 AM
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I'm confused, sure! As I said, I can post tons of fake pictures like yours here... but why I have to ? That picture above means just one thing: NOTHING OF NOTHING. But why if I ask Esteban you answer for him ? That's funny man. Why when I challenge you, Esteban answer ? Give us facts and I'll belive what you said. When I claim my coil could get a coin at few (really few) cms more than an original Tesoro's coil I say something that everyone, with a bit of patience, tools, some wire and goodwill can test using the informations I've provided. Test yourself if don't belive words. Would cost you some (2hours for me) work and a bit of cheapy stuff ! But when you claim YOU CAN DETECT A COIN ON SURFACE, USING A METAL DETECTOR, FROM METERS AWAY than give no informations, no patents (oh yeah there are... but aren't international ! WHY ?), no documentation, no model/brand refs, anything good to test ourself and see with our eyes if what you're talking about is truth of just a novel... DO YOU THINK YOU GAIN CREDIT HERE ? WHY ME OR OTHERS HAVE TO TRUST YOU ? SAME FOR ESTEBAN. SAME FOR HUNG. SAME FOR DELL. SAME FOR ANYONE ACTING SAME WAY. I don't want be polemic here, say everytime your are a joker or clown... that you belong to a LRL-clan or LRL-tribe... of nonsense. Not my intention, belive me. But what have I think ? Kind regards, Max
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#94
08-11-2007, 03:59 AM
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More details to consider if you want to build a real LRL
We recently learned there are trace amounts of ions in the ground dissolved from various metals including gold, platinum and other treasures. We discovered that reseachers found there is a vertical column of ionized soil that travels from the buried metal to the surface soil, where the metal ions finally become bound with chemicals that de-ionize them. While this ion concentration is in the parts per billion, technicians are able to measure the anomalies from the surface and pinpoint the locations where there is gold or other ores under the ground. We also know there is a 100v/m electric field in the air that can be expected to show faint anomalies in the vicinity of any soil that has metal ions in it, among other soil variations. Does this describe enough physical characteristics of buried gold to suggest a method of building an electronic long range locator? Many have tried, but complain about extreme unreliability measuring static fields. So what hope is there to locate the hidden gold under the ground from long range? The answer lies in more knowledge of the details of the physics and electrical dynamics of buried metals. So far we looked at ions in the soil and the electric field in the air. But what else is going on with this electric field and buried metals? What else is happening that might produce some signal we can measure? Atmospheric current anomalies First, consider we have 2000 amps leaking from the atmosphere to the earth. Roughly half of this current leaks through thunderstorms in the form of lightning, and is not available as a uniform leakage through the atmosphere. This leaves only about 1000 amps leaking through the earth's fair weather skies. A quick calculation shows that this amounts to about 2 microamps per km², not much current. Now this current is being forced straight down by the electric field generated high in the atmosphere, but it is influenced by the earth's magnetic field. Thus, this current does not flow down in a straight line. The magnetic field distorts the path of this current flow. In fact, researchers discovered the majority of the current is leaking through the atmosphere near the north and south magnetic poles, with a lesser amount near the equator. This research would suggest that any instruments designed to measure anomalies of the current leaking from the sky will have a much weaker signal to measure in locations away from the magnetic poles of the earth. But this is a generalization. Much more precise values can be found by consulting an electron density map of the earth's lower atmosphere. Electric field strength variations To further complicate this current density, the electric field strength changes throughout the day as well as changing due to solar influences and magnetic storms. The electric field exists due to a difference in charge of the ionosphere and the earth. The ionosphere is charged mostly from "solar wind". But throughout the day, there are different space energies that contribute to different regions of the atmosphere's electric charge. We find that on an average, the minimum electric field is found about 4:00am, and the maximum comes at about 7:00pm. But there are big deviations from this average depending on what part of the world you live. Charts showing the daily electric field fluctuations in Asia, Africa, and North America bear no resemblance to to each other except they all have a daily cycle. Near-surface ion generators The planetary boundary layer is the first few kilometers above the surface of the ground. This boundary layer is charged mostly by cosmic rays. But near the surface there is also some ionization by decays of natural gases emanating from the soil surface and by radiation emitted directly from the surface. This ionization from radioactive sources depends on the soil and geological structure as well as the meteorological dispersal rate. This boundary layer ionization decreases rapidly with altitude, and becomes less than the cosmic ray contribution at 1 km altitude. Other sources of near-surface ionization come from mists and aerosols from waterfalls and ocean waves, man made sprays, combustion processes, lightning, point discharge or corona discharge, and friction from dust, snow or volcanic ejections. If you want to measure ionization, consider these sources that will distort your measurement of the ions in the air. This can help explain why the ion detectors show different measurements near a city or a beach than in the mountains. Troposphere layer ionization The troposphere layer is more complicated. This is the layer where trace air gases exist in abundance. Clouds in the troposphere act as a sink for small ions and will alter the distribution of ions. Clouds can also create a large decrease in local conductivity of the atmosphere, thus changing the electric field that you try to measure on the ground. Some clouds are also able to move large masses of ions through convection currents within them. As we increase in altitude to the stratosphere (up to 50km), we see the main source of ionization is from cosmic rays. This is the altitude where sunspots and solar flares can reduce the cosmic ray influence by as much as 50%. These solar effects can last for hours to days. The degree of cosmic ray influence also depends on the geomagnetic latitude. Researchers also found that within the lower part of the troposphere, mountain peaks play a role in current density. Because they are closer to the source of the charge, they tend to collect more of the current from the sky than a section of land at sea level. Mesosphere ionization The mesosphere (50-85 km) is where ultraviolet light ionizes nitric oxide during daylight hours. Oxygen is also photo ionized in smaller amounts, along with small amounts of solar X-ray ionization. When we look above 80 km altitude, we see free electrons can exist, where mostly nitrogen and oxygen ions exist below. These free electrons are highly mobile, and make this a very conductive layer. As we look higher than 85 km, we find extreme ultraviolet radiation from the sun is ionizing nitrogen and oxygen. This is where we see the biggest influence of solar sunspots from the 11 year cycle and the 27 day rotation of the sun, and this is thought to be the most powerful source of charging the atmosphere around the earth. We find that auroral precipitation is responsible for large variations in ion and electron densities at higher latitudes. Is this starting to sound like rocket science? This was just a brief overview of the basics of the atmospheric electric field. There are many other intricate mechanisms that complicate these processes. All these mechanisms should be considered when designing an electronic long range locator. For people who want to measure anomalies of the electric field in the air above buried metal, you cannot ignore the variations in electric field caused by the mechanisms of the sun and other space energies. The relative charge of the air will vary depending on the solar activity, the weather, dust and waves, the geology of the local ground, the time of day etc, etc. Remember, the metal ions found in the ground were measured in the parts per billion and less. Consider the signal to noise ratio of any instrument that must measure electric field anomalies in the air above this trace of metal ionization. Why your Zahori didn't work so well This may begin to explain why some locators will work with some limited success in one area, but not another. Or why it worked good last month, but not now. In order for an electric field anomaly locator to work acceptably, It must be able to compensate for the sources of extraneous influences on the electric field. These extraneous electric field influences are considered noise when they are not part of an anomaly caused by the electrochemical properties of the buried metal. Compensating can be accomplished in the form of checking the sources of noise and making manual adjustments, or by electronic filters and self-correcting circuitry that cancels the noise sources. In some cases it is not possible to electronically cancel or filter the noise. If you want to design a LRL that is not influenced by variations in the earth's electric field, then perhaps you will look to measuring some other phenomenon (or combination of phenomena) that is not primarily dependent on the strength and stability of the electric field of the earth. Where to next? Is there another way? Of course there is. We may want to take another look at the strange space energies that are charging the atmosphere. Perhaps there is something buried in the details of those mechanisms that we have overlooked, that will not be subject to the fluctuations of solar flares etc. We can also take a closer look at the nuclear emmissions that come from within the earth, and the coexistence of telluric earth current flows, and at the way the earth's magnetic field interacts with these as well as the chemical processes involved with the dissolution and ionization of the buried metal. But that's a whole 'nuther story for another time. Best wishes, J_P
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#95
08-11-2007, 05:11 AM
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Good Work J Player!!
Man that's alot of research you just layed out there,thank you. I have looked at many patents that utilize either magnetotelluric signals or one that used the effect of solar winds which was 1hz and below for geophysical prospecting.
Once it can be determined close up in a test bed the frequencies of a particular metal, you can use video intergrating technique from Radar. This was told to me by a Hughes Aircraft Engineer whereby you take the signal and delay it by one cycle and add it to itself using a summer (dual gate mosfet would work nicely for this like a 40673 or 3n211). I'm kinda partial to the 40673 as there quite stable and have a good S21 (S parameter for those not familiar). Regarding Telluric Currents, I read a study whereby a couple engineers monitored the tellurc currents generated by ocean waves crashing and went further and further away from the beach and tracked the signal over 100 miles away! Now were getting somewhere in all this spilling of ink as it were. Randy
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#97
08-11-2007, 08:10 AM
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are you sure they work in Brazil ? I have my dubts. Self-convincing in the best case, fraud intentions in the worst case. If that things work e.g. in Brazil, why they don't give a public demonstration (like the challenge) there in Brazil that these things really work ? I mean TV, superparty trusted witness, USA guests etc etc All the show !  I'm skeptic that anyone could demonstrate this stuff work even in that places. Also I've read all e.g. Hung (also Esteban and others) stuff regarding bad work e.g. due to solar activity and humidity there in Brazil (and SA in general)... but then ? Even there things are not sure ! You never can say if you'll find anything ! So why you could say this stuff really work there ??? You can't. Kind regards, Max
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#98
08-11-2007, 08:18 AM
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all nice. Lot of work. But all said me what's I already know and I can't see any suitable method / principle one can use to made an LRL. Anomalies could be made by a huge number of variables... and also noise sources could be (probably) hundreds or thousands. No way. For me, only way to get LRL work is an active device (like a radar), can't be passive device cause noise is dominant e.g. detecting electrical anomalies. Think that some really powerful and directive (and penetrating the soil...) emission have to reach object, then reflected signal or secondary effects must be detected. Best regards, Max
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#99
08-11-2007, 10:47 AM
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self-convincing
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 , I will let you know when go up or down.
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#100
08-11-2007, 01:21 PM
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I understand. That's a good thing think positive and be optimist. And costs nothing. But you already bought one of these ? Best regards, Max
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