Ion Trap Mass Spectrometry

[Seden]

In looking at the Minero detector with it's ion trap detector,makes me wonder if the idea came from a Ion Trap mass Spectrometer. The missing piece of the puzzle is the source of ionization.

I think I mentioned earlier in the March 7th,2007 edition of EE Times is an article called "Star Trek's 'tricorder' realized where Purdue University combined a mass spectrometer with a desorption electrospray ionization source. Out of my league to be sure and something Carl would have to really explain. But the good news it they predict once the unit gets in production should be around $2,000 (much cheaper than a minero) but has a very short range and can identify just about anything accurately.
Now there's the challenge to make a LRL mass spectrometer.

Randy

Hi Seden,

Ion Traps only work in zero air.

Read up on it.

Otherwise ions react quickly

[give up electron] and

cannot be stored up.

Search Ion Mobility Spectrometry.

in air deal.

Hard to get good resolution

trying to get a spectrum

by gating and seperating

ions by accelerating in electric field.

Also lots of crap in outside air

from burned automobile gas

additives. [and you are worryed about

second hand smoke, he he].

Unless someone pulls a bunny

out of a hat.

I would say lost cause.

mho

[Seden]

I was just thinking out loud wondering if Alanso and company were trying to imitate Mass Spectrometry with the Ion Sensor in their detector. Good points though and thank you.

No,what I think would be worthwhile pursing is Spectral Induced Polarization which according to Heikka Vanhala's Doctoral Dissertation that he sent me a copy of, can determine what mineral or metal is by it's grain size. What puzzles me is how such a low frequency can detect grain size. Seems like something that should be up in the 100+GHZ range, not .01-1000hz!
One of these days if I can get up the nerve to write him or that very beautifull Scientist Erika Gasperikova how this can be and if it could be used to detect small objects like coins. Having said that in the book "Looking into the Earth" Chap.23 "Exploration of Metalliferous Ores"sub chap."The formation of ores and their geophysical properties" states "The ore is usually dense,conducting, and magnetic,but if it is disseminated IP is likely to be a better geophysical technique than gravity,resistivity,or e-m". Again Carl would probably be the one to comment on this given his educational background,seems hopefull though,but hey what do I know?
Randy

[Rudy]

Last I heard, precious metals like gold, or platinum, or silver, do not spontaneously gassify or vaporize by themselves. So what's the point about using the technique in an LRL?

OK, I agree! Good points!
Regards!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Seden

In looking at the Minero detector with it's ion trap detector,makes me wonder if the idea came from a Ion Trap mass Spectrometer. The missing piece of the puzzle is the source of ionization.
Randy

It's more likely that the Mineoro detector came from an idea associated with wallet mining. There was no scientific thought process involved.

[Seden]

You made my point-Thank You! Like I said, the source of Ionization is the missing puzzle here. If someone from Mineoro is reading this I'd like them to respond to enlighten us all the purpose of the unsealed ionization chamber.
Has anyone been able to get into the microchip in the Mineoro to read the code,must be a way to get into it.
With all the talented EE's on here somebody should be able to hack the code for it. That should be priority one in getting to the bottom of this thrashed to death topic of Mineoro detectors and ending it once and for all.

Randy

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Seden

You made my point-Thank You! Like I said, the source of Ionization is the missing puzzle here. If someone from Mineoro is reading this I'd like them to respond to enlighten us all the purpose of the unsealed ionization chamber.
Has anyone been able to get into the microchip in the Mineoro to read the code,must be a way to get into it.
With all the talented EE's on here somebody should be able to hack the code for it. That should be priority one in getting to the bottom of this thrashed to death topic of Mineoro detectors and ending it once and for all.

Randy

You're making a huge assumption here. Gold does not produce ions.

[Seden]

In Google, type in "Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometer with Laser Abalation metal ions release detection in the human mouth" Proc. SPIE Vol.4610 pg.170-177.

Randy

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Seden

In Google, type in "Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometer with Laser Abalation metal ions release detection in the human mouth" Proc. SPIE Vol.4610 pg.170-177.

Randy

OK, I've done that - but...
This paper refers to alloys used in dentistry, and the detection of metal elements in the saliva is the subject of the study. It also appears that you need to be a subscriber to get the full paper, and the abstract does not specifically mention gold ions. Although, it is true that ionic gold in the form of gold chloride is toxic to humans, this is different to metallic gold. Perhaps someone who is more familiar with dentistry can tell us the exact mixture used for gold fillings.
Anyway, pure metallic gold does not produce ions. Not even if you bury it for a million years.

In the event that we don't have any dentists lurking here, I did a quick search:

Gold fillings have excellent durability, wear well, and do not cause excessive wear to the opposing teeth, but they do conduct heat and cold, which can be irritating. There are two categories of gold fillings, cast gold fillings ( gold inlays and onlays ) made with 14 or 18 kt gold, and gold foil made with pure 24 kt gold that is burnished layer by layer. For years, they have been considered the benchmark of restorative dental materials. Recent advances in dental porcelains and consumer focus on aesthetic results have caused demand for gold fillings to drop in favor of advanced composites and porcelain veneers and crowns. Gold fillings are usually quite expensive, although they do last a very long time. It is not uncommon for a gold crown to last 30 years in a patient's mouth.

So it appears that amalgams are the real problem, and gold is preferred because of its durability and safety.
I really cannot comment any further unless you have the full paper available.

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Seden

Has anyone been able to get into the microchip in the Mineoro to read the code,must be a way to get into it.

If the protection fuse has been blown (and I assume it surely has) then the only way is to decap the part and re-deposit the fuse metal using a focused ion beam (FIB) machine. I've used a FIB service in Raleigh several times, but it's very expensive, and they might not agree to FIB a microcontroller fuse.

- Carl

In its simplest form an IMS system measures how fast a given ion moves in a uniform electric field gradient through a given atmosphere. The molecules of the sample need to be ionized, usually by corona discharge, atmospheric pressure photoionization (APPI), electrospray ionization (ESI), or a radioactive source, eg. a small piece of 63Ni or 241Am, similar to the one used in ionization smoke detectors.

you can get Americium from smoke detectors

for an ionization source

otherwise radioact stuff is off limits for most of us.

here are some links

I know alot about this stuff.

Homeland Security Money

I designed the electronics for several companies.

No I can't give you the schematics.

The gating of ions at high voltage is trick

and the amplifiers/eletrometers for low noise

is somewhat tough, but nothing you guys couldn't

cook up on your own. The high voltage is 3000 to 10,000

but not much current is required so you can even do this

somewhat safely.

Lots of money in this game for

the detection of xplosives, dangerous chemicals, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_mobility_spectrometry

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/lsm/mimspec.html

http://trace.smithsdetection.com/Lif...asp?Flash=True

To detect telltale traces of chemicals that evaporate from the surfaces of these substances, security agents rely on various kinds of chemical "sniffers". Ion mobility spectrometers are among the most commonly used instruments for this purpose.
The ion mobility spectrometry (IMS) technique separates and detects electrically charged particles (ions) that have been sorted according to how fast they travel through an electrical field in a tube. Small ions travel very fast, and they reach the detector first, with successively larger ions following along behind.
The process starts when a security officer wipes an absorbent swab over a person's clothing or luggage, then inserts the swab into a small heated chamber. (ACS employee Kevin McCue wrote an amusing account of this experience in a previous chemistry.org feature.) Inside the chamber, traces of organic compounds that the swab has picked up evaporate and mix with a carrier gas that is swept into the main part of the instrument.
Inside the instrument, a radioactive substance, commonly 63Ni, is housed in a small chamber that is shielded from the outside, but accessible to the inside of the instrument. This radioactive source constantly gives off high-energy electrons, which collide with the sample molecules and the carrier gas to form ions.


http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/...6a17245d830100

There are also many patents

on this technology. It can indeed detect metals

in atomic form in the air.

If they are they there.

You can do it for real.

My guess is the unit under discussion

is a poor replica, but maybe enough to keep

out of jail. otherwise the gold will have to be

pre ionized and suspended in air.

[Seden]

Now that's a post I really appreciate,real technology and possible experiments. Thanks much my friend!

Randy

[Max]

Originally Posted by Seden

Now that's a post I really appreciate,real technology and possible experiments. Thanks much my friend!

Randy

Hi Randy,
as I said in an older post ionic chambers do not detect ions from outside environment, just ion pairs due to incident radiations formed inside the chamber (that is filled of air or some other gas mixture). The purpose is much like in geiger counters, count ion pairs generated by a kind of counter, then show to the operator. Some of these are special, then could classify the radiating source.
So the assumption that minoro's chamber (well what they call chamber...) can detect external ions from outside air (airborn ions) is a scientific false.

If you mean ionic traps, well there are but are much complicated and often involve use of specific organic compounds and I don't know if exist some portable general purpose unit...but costs and fact that are sensitive technologies means that these are not available to THs.

For smoke detectors...a ionizating source (as stated 241Am) give the radiations needed to ionize air in the gap between electrodes...when smoke particles invade the gap the number of ion pairs increase much and detector signals smoke in the room. Nothing special. You could see same things e.g. on spark gaps...if you put near a radioactive source (241Am is fine) you'll get more sparks at same voltage and also brighter...
if you smoke a cigarette near the spark...there are even more...sparks due to the fact that particles aid spark path generation.
All old book stuff...all already tested a million times...nothing new.
BTW Be careful on handling this kind of stuff, use gloves, do not eat anything etc really dangerous.

The other issue is ionic-gold...and there are problems getting Au-ions everybody knows. In nature ionic gold is present in really small ammounts and even in solution! In particular matrix you could find ionic gold (e.g. Cl-Au or other Au compounds are ionic and so you could find e.g. in a wet soil of these kind where there is much free Cl) but they are extremely rare, extremely low quantity...you know gold is really small reactive to chemicals.

Then LRL theory need airborn gold ions...and this is another story.
Having a gold ion in air is possible in theory, of course, but how ? Not in "normal" conditions.

So, all this stuff about ionic gold detection, with that LRL, is a pure SCAM.

Though there are new devices on the scene now, they are not made of PVC pipes...brass...some gold plating and some old microcontroller. They use state of the art technology and aren't available to civilians (at least for now).

I think that no manifacturer of LRL can give any proof that their LRL device could locate and disc gold or whatever , underground or not, in an accurate, repeatable, affordable way and that's way there are no patents of all that stuff.


Best regards,
Max

[Qiaozhi]

LRLs are based on a pseudoscientific concept. The principles are untenable and unfalsifiable (or at least difficult to disprove) and rely solely on anecdotes as evidence. LRLs do nothing for the advancement of metal detecting technology. All the evidence is subjective, and their claims do not stand up under close scrutiny.

So why do some people persist in an irrational belief in such quackery as "ionic detection" and "dowsing", to mention two of the most popular subjects on this forum? The answer appears to be purely psychological, and consists of a combination of selective memory and self delusion.

For Hung, the Mineoro has become "so last year", and he's now moved on to greater things. i.e. a modified Ranger Examiner. Although exactly how a cheap calculator glued to the top of a plastic case, and mounted on a swivel handle is supposed to detect anything is completely unclear. Goodness knows what the "modification" actually comprises. Maybe the calculator has been remounted with epoxy glue for greater stability. Who knows? This device is nothing more than a dowsing rod that has been dressed up with some nonsense electronics in order to trap the unwary. Buyer beware!

Have you also noticed how these "expeditions" are never undertaken using only LRL "technology"? There is always a trusty "conventional" metal detector there to save the day. The expedition usually begins with some careful research to get the treasure hunters in the right ball park. The LRLs are then used to subjectively confirm that this is the right location, and (of course) they all give consistent results. Next the real metal detector is used to locate the treasure, and finally the LRLs get the credit.

Such is life...

Hi Seden and All,

Hi Robert !

Here you go guys.

Getting real real.

The Real Deal.

Part of what I do.

Lower noise the Electrometer

the lower the detection level.

This has schematics and source code.

Enjoy the read.

REAL detection of Ions in Air.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0501/0501106.pdf

JC1

Among other true statements here (made by all of you) i would like to
extract the most significant for this subject:
"...Lower noise the Electrometer the lower the detection level..."
Bravo JC1!!! Whole point made in few words !!! This is crucial to
understand if we want to continue disscusion! After this, nothing else
can aprove main LRL's thesis about blah,blah lr principles and simillar!
That's why i suggested to Geo, first to experiment a while with Zahori and
than to make some conclusions further.
If we (low budget mortals) cant get high-tech to experiment, at least we can
"simulate" expensive processes with what we have...few wires and nuts...Hah!

Carl:
"If the protection fuse has been blown (and I assume it surely has) then the
only way is to decap the part and re-deposit the fuse metal using a focused
ion beam (FIB) machine. I've used a FIB service in Raleigh several times,
but it's very expensive, and they might not agree to FIB a microcontroller fuse."

Dependable of uP type. Whether is capacitive,resistive or diode matrix fuses
inside.
Some russian freaks established other method. Cut (sand)
plastic top of ic to make safety approach and using microscope soldering extra
thin fiber in fuse place! What a freaks! But at the end it works!
Rate of success was 90:10...good enough!
But i do not see point to do that on mineoro "uPc"...It is not even uPc..it is
some nonsenced choosen ic to "play the uPc role" there. Wired in manner not to
produce shorts in circuitry..That is all!
I had chance to check mineoro. Experiment with it. Measure signals in all lines..
Nothing! Sound is produced according to hums and interferences received by
"direct" receiver in small black box...(Carl already disected it)..Funny!
Anyway, this forum deserves more detailed approach to some real technology, that's
why i salute your last posts here!
Very Best regards!

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by robert

Hi Seden and All,

Hi Robert !

Here you go guys.

Getting real real.

The Real Deal.

Part of what I do.

Lower noise the Electrometer

the lower the detection level.

This has schematics and source code.

Enjoy the read.

REAL detection of Ions in Air.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0501/0501106.pdf

JC1

Note that there is no mention of gold ions anywhere in the 274 pages of this thesis.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Note that there is no mention of gold ions anywhere in the 274 pages of this thesis.

Hi,
not only...

"A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy "

that explains all.

All this stuff need to work an inlet, a fan and other stuff LRL haven't and anyway is useful only to have an "idea" of what's in the air (gas, aerosol particles etc) but for the purpose of discovering how much smog there is !

As said all old books science (some dated 1880...), with newer adds of last years for a topic that could interest some climate scientist (maybe and maybe not)...but for sure not a single THunter in the whole world!

FOR JC1: I think that all this stuff is useful to find treasures as a 20 liters beer-tank to find way home at night (you must first drink it all...).

Best regards,
Max

Whoa Cowboys !!!

Rein in them whips !!!

ow !!!

Hey where did the LRL stuff come from on

this thread??? NOT FROM ME thats for sure.

I never said that this was your little perfect

treasure detector.

YOU WILL HAVE TO FIGURE THAT ONE

OUT YOUR LITTLE SELFS.

The only thing I am saying is that

IF there was atomic size gold in the air

there is a way to detect it, properly.

Is it an easy little toy that can made?

NO.

That is my point.

and I thought the unit under question

was the one with some higher voltage

and a little chamber

that might be trying in some crude

fashion to emulate the real deal.

It probably is useless to find treasures

even in your face.

UNLESS SOMEONE CAN PROVE THERE

IS GOLD OR GOLD IONS IN THE AIR.

in which case it could work.

As I designed one to detect Nickel Metal

levels being exhausted from an industrial

smoke stake.

so I know I can detect and discriminate

Gold.

And I am sorry the PHD thesis

did not exactly mention gold ions

and how to exactly find lost and hidden

treasures. Of course if it did.

YOU would already be out of luck.

Now wouldn't you?

Way behind the Power Curve.

I shouldn't be posting here

anyway.

Much Later.

Bye.

Thanks Robert.

[Max]

Hi whoeveryouare,
please stop using the shareware robert login and use yours...

lets roll:

"I never said that this was your little perfect treasure detector."

ok, so what's the purpose if not what I have already explained (smog detector) and why publishing this stuff here ?

"
The only thing I am saying is that

IF there was atomic size gold in the air

there is a way to detect it, properly.
"

Are you really sure ? Also if you can, THERE ISN'T ANY IONIC GOLD IN THE AIR, well if you don't first detonate some nuke
So, what's the usefulness of what's described above ?

"It probably is useless to find treasures even in your face.
"
Totally agree and in your face too. Just is useless to find treasures at all.

"UNLESS SOMEONE CAN PROVE THERE IS GOLD OR GOLD IONS IN THE AIR.
in which case it could work."

Call NORAD to give you some "meteo" before going for treasures.

"
As I designed one to detect Nickel Metal

levels being exhausted from an industrial

smoke stake.

so I know I can detect and discriminate
"
Oh yes...ok...AND THEN ? Also my nose can detect too propane in the air...and I know it's propane...but I cannot sniff out any treasures, unfortunately.

"
And I am sorry the PHD thesis

did not exactly mention gold ions

and how to exactly find lost and hidden

treasures. Of course if it did.

YOU would already be out of luck.

Now wouldn't you?

Way behind the Power Curve.
"

Yes. Of course. I'm a brainless. Cause maybe I'll not buy any of this crappy LRL

"
I shouldn't be posting here

anyway.

Much Later.

Bye.

Thanks Robert.
"

I agree...cause you have nothing useful to say but just bugging me cause I'm talking about truth... life is hard.

Your thanks to robert are cause you are hiding using his shareware login ???

Listen to me...drink that beer! You'll feel better.

Best regards,
Max

[Max]

Originally Posted by robert

Max...give us break! He is member of RObert brotherhood, so better if he stay under RObert nick! Oh, almost forget! Max since you are "our type" of man we invite you to join RObert brotherhood! C'mon! Welcome!
Hah,hah,hah..!!!

Hi,
no dubt !
I'll join the team too.

Best regards,
Max