Magnacast 5000

[Mike(Mont)]

Just curious if anyone has any info on the Magnacast 5000 from Vernell Electronics at http://www.vrdetectors.com This locator unit has an electronic receiver. I spoke to someone who owns one and he said you can also use L-rods with it. This person said he had used other LRL equipment, some he had bought from K****co metal detector distributor, but the Magnacast worked.

[Mike(Mont)]

I guess I am wondering what is "Forward Gauss"?

[svenax]

I'm wondering that too. I also noticed an awful lot of trademarked terms on their site, such as "scan gun" and "standard six". A quick search on the US patent Office site shows that none of the terms indicated as trademarks - not even the company name - were in fact registered. Now, that has no relevance for if the machine works or not, but I think it is a bit strange nonetheless. But perhaps I as a foreigner don't understand how US trademarks work.

[J_Player]

In the USA, we have 50 separate states which have their own registries for corporations and trademarks, as well as the federal government which is a separate entity from any state. When a trademark is registered in a single state, it becomes protected in that state, but a federal trademark registration will protect a trademark in all 50 states.

Since Vernell electronics is located in Saratosa Florida, we can check VERNELL ELECTRONICS, INC at the Florida Division of Corporations web page: http://www.sunbiz.org/corinam.html

At the Florida Division of Corporations website, we find two entries for VERNELL ELECTRONICS, INC. Both are registered to WILLIAM DUNNING at 7224 EDENVILLE DRIVE, SARASOTA FL 34243. The first entry shows inactive status with the last corporate event being ADMIN DISSOLUTION FOR ANNUAL REPORT on the date of 10-01-2004. We also find a document that shows the name was changed to Bill Dunning, Inc. on June 24, 2003. The second entry for VERNELL ELECTRONICS, INC shows that on 9-06-2006, the corporation was reactivated.

When we repeat the same search for trademarks, we find that none of the trademarks listed on the Vernell website are registered with the state of Florida. The appearance is that it is not true that these trademarks are registered. It may be possible they are registered with some other agency, but not with the State of Florida or the US federal government.

"Forward gauss" does not exist in any science that utilizes magnetism except on the web page of Vernell Electronics. It appears that William Dunning made up this word and published it on his web page with a trademark symbol next to it in order to make people believe it is a registered proprietary technology rather than a word he made up.

When we look at the products William Dunning is selling, they appear to be suspiciously similar to some products that were tested by Carl, and were determined not to find treasures. What is different about the Dunning detectors is they contain electronic boxes with more sophisticated displays connected to the same equipment as other LRL manufacturers sell.

I have to wonder if these detectors can really locate anything as claimed by William Dunning. He has detailed a number of metal detecting technologies that most electronics engineers and geophysists have never heard of. I wonder if it is a good idea to test his machines before paying money for one of them. If William Dunning's detectors actually work, perhaps he would be willing to offer a money-back guarantee if you are not satisfied that they are finding the gold, siver and diamonds that he claims they will locate.

[Mike(Mont)]

Actually I was hoping to hear from someone who had actually used one. I'm not interested in personal attacks--the trademark is of no concern to me because I am not a competing manufacturer. I read an old post that Carl had a VR2000. This appears to be an earlier version of the Magnacast. He said he couldn't get it to work. That alone means nothing to me. The unit could be malfunctioning, or like me on a bad day I can't get a metal detector to work all that well.

I've done a websearch on "Forward Gauss" and all I came up with was some mathematical formulas that I don't understand, but it doesn't appear that Vernon Rose "made up" this term. He developed the Forward Gauss technology before there was MFD. Dell said he used one.

[J_Player]

Hi Mike(Mont),
If you re-read what I have written, you will find there are no personal attacks against anyone. I am also interested to learn whether this device works, and what is "forward gauss". Since there is little information for either of these questions, the only clues we have are to research the source and discover the facts around the devices and the people who developed them. The registries of the State of Florida and US Patent Office contain records, not attacks. These records are dependable for establishing the dates that certain events occurred, such as registering a trademark, patent, or corporation. They do not rely on hearsay, which is subject to making an error from lapse of memory, or falsification. When a person publishes any document where they are claiming a trademark, we expect they own that trademark. Thus, we would expect William Dunning owns the trademarks he claims to have registered.

However, I cannot find any sign that he owns these trademarks at all. Nowhere in the Florida, or the US government patent office. With no information on where this "trademarked" technology came from, it seems reasonable to suspect maybe Bill Dunning made it up. According to your statement, this suspicion is correct:

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

He developed the Forward Gauss technology before there was MFD.

It is not a personal attack to say that it appears Bill Dunning made up "forward gauss". It is simply a statement that this appears to be the source of where "forward gauss" came from, and it helps to answer the question that three of us have been wondering in our above posts. And this may be a false appearance if it is discovered some other person originated the term and technology. "Forward Gauss" very definitely is not a registered trademark in the US Patent office or the State of Florida. This is a simple matter of historical fact.

The math formulas you found in your search are not related to any work done by Bill Dunning. The math formulas relate to the Gauss-Siedel method of smoothing when using multigrid applications to solve linear systems associated with elliptical partial differential equations. In simple terms, it is a mathematical method to solve a calculus equation. It has no relation to metal detection or long range locating. This leads me to believe that Bill Dunning is the source of the concept and terminology of "forward gauss" as it relates to long range locating.

[Dell Winders]

We define the forward flow of information for a. transmission delay d E N, as ... Gauss-Markov source the optimal nonanticipatory chan- ...

Jplayer, I don't if this means anything, but a quick search on Google brought up several headers listed about Forward Gauss transmission, Unfortunatly they don't link to any information. But, apparently Forward Gauss transmission is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests. Dell

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,
Yes, it means something. The reference you posted is one of many references that shows there is no other source of the term "Forward Gauss" other than William Dunning.

First, your allegation is false:

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Forward Gauss transmission is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests. Dell

The actual information shown on the Vernell website says the Magnacast5000 uses "FORWARD GAUSS technology". It makes no mention of any sort of gauss transmissions, nor did anyone else in this thread except you.

Secondly, you reference a paper quoting the "Gauss-Markov source" and drag a number of words out of context to assemble them as you see fit to prove your point. Are you aware that the Gauss-Markov source has nothing to do with forward or backward gauss or magnetism in general? Is it possible that the "Gauss-Markov source" in reality relates to programming source code and models used to minimize coding/decoding losses in low bit-rate data transmission of video signals? Is there some reason you failed to include the other references that tell exactly what "Gauss-Markov source" is? Anyone who reads the reports that reference Gauss-Markov source will quickly understand that this is a programmers source code model, not a technology. It is totally unrelated to metal detecting or LRL construction, and in fact there is no mention in any of those papers of "Forward Gauss" whatsoever. Read about "Gauss-Markov source" used as a programmer's coding/decoding model here:
http://www.arehna.di.uoa.gr/Eusipco2...ers/cr1263.pdf
http://www.data-compression.com/vq.shtml
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~signal/Nsip99/papers/57.pdf

The appearance is this is another deliberate attempt where Dell is trying to interject misinformation to this discussion of "Forward Gauss". Or am I wrong? Is Dell so technically impaired that he can only post references that do not link to any information?

Now having established that Dell's reference is bogus, this still does not help us to understand what is "Forward Gauss", or whether the Magnacast 5000 works. This is because we have used process of elimination which left only William Dunning as the probable person who made up that term and technology. I suggest that instead of presuming what seems obvious, we should get the actual facts.

Why not let William Dunning come to the forum and give us the facts. He obviously knows the whole story about "Forward Gauss" and its trademarks, and his other LRL device trademarks. He can also give us more insight into how to use his LRL devices and satisfy us that they work or don't work before we consider buying one of them.

[Clondike Clad]

on that misinformation.
We are lucky to have some smart people on this forum.

[Dell Winders]

First, your allegation is false:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dell Winders
Forward Gauss transmission is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests. Dell

Then, take first things first. I didn't make an allegation. I stated a fact.
You can apologize.

Why not let William Dunning come to the forum and give us the facts

Who's stopping you? Dell

[J_Player]

According to Dell winders, "my expertise" suggests Forward Gauss transmission is a term invented by Dunning. Now Dell, Why would you lie about this? Just to prove you are right? Can you show me where I or anybody else said anything about Gauss transmissions? I can find only you making a reference to gauss transmissions. Furthermore, your reference to "Forward Gauss transmission" leads us to a myriad of websites that publish studies of data transmission losses and programmers source code, not LRL technology.

The appearance is you are attempting to disseminate misinformation which will confuse people who are trying to understand William Dunning's trademarked "Forward Gauss" technology. Is this true? What is your purpose in obscuring facts in a tech forum? Why did you lead us to "Gauss-Markov source" websites that have nothing to do with the magnacast 5000 or "Forward Gauss"? Why did you re-arrange the words to make it appear that they pertained to the topic of this discussion?

You want me to apologize for your dissemination of misinformation? Forget it! I do not feel responsible for your ignorance or your deception. I have posted real links to real websites that tell all about your "Gauss-Markov source" information. They are free for anyone who wants to read them. You have contributed nothing of value to this discussion, only misinformation.

If you really expect an apology from me, post your complaint in the thread titled "Dell's complaints". I will be happy to address your demand for an apology there. This thread is to learn about the magnacast 5000.

[Dell Winders]

O.K. now that you have had your tantrum, and made your accusations based on assumption, back to the beginning.

"Forward Gauss" is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests.

You are right. Google is not the place to reference for correct information. We should should go directly to the source. I guess I shouldn't have worded my search for Forward Gauss "Transmitter", because you were talking about Forward Gauss "Technology".

You sure made a of fool out of me on that technicality. Dell

[J_Player]

Ok Dell,
Now maybe we can get back on topic. We are all trying to understand what "Forward Gauss" is. Nobody in this forum seems to know anything about it except you.

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

"Forward Gauss" is not a term invented by Dunning, as your expertise suggests.

Since you are now saying that "Forward Gauss" is not a term invented by Dunning, can you tell us who did invent this term, how you know he did not invent this term, or any other information that pertains to "Forward Gauss"? I still think you are wrong, and that Dunning did invent the term "Forward Gauss", as Mike(Mont)'s post suggests.

[Dell Winders]

I have made it clear from the beginning on this forum that I don't know anything about electronics and therefore I have no idea what "Forward Gauss" means. My knowledge, if any, is in the field use of such products.

That is why I niavely said, "I don't know if this means anything" and pasted directly from google. You twisted, misconstrued, made accusations and threw a tantrum.

Carl, is the puppet master pulling your strings and he has already declared years ago that Vernell, products do not work and are a Scam. It's in his reports.

So why your pretense of investigating what has already been declared a Scam, bogus, and Wallet mining by a fellow scientific pretender catering to the same Skeptic cult agenda?? Dell

[svenax]

OK, Dell, the Google snippet you found does indeed have nothing to do with the alleged Forward Gauss Technology that the Magnacast contraption is said to use. Let's agree to that and move on. Googling the term "Forward Gauss" with the quotes shows no relevant links except for those pointing to the Vernell site or a number of asian trade sites selling this contraption. Here's one:

Shanghai TianXun Electronic Equipment Co., Ltd.
http://cnmetaldetector.com/class.asp...s=&bigclass=50

I had a peek at the users manual, avaliable at the Vernell site, to see if it explained the Forward Gauss thing. No, it did not - it didn't even mention the term. But it did say that the device is a AM transmitter/reciever, that it can be affected by normal radio transmissions, and that any warranty issues are to be handled by Kellyco ...

[Qiaozhi]

Like J Player, my suspicion is that the term "Forward Gauss" has been commandered by Dunning to add credibility to an otherwise dubious detecting technique.
Karl Friedrich Gauss was a German astronomer and physicist who is most famous for his contributions to the mathematical theory of magnetism. This is probably where Dunning originally derived the idea, although "Forward Gauss" is more related to optics than magnetism. By some sort of twisted logic, a LRL scam could be "based on" this concept, especially when you look at geometric diagrams used in the derivation of thin lens formulas. I guess the "Forward Gauss" idea (as applied to Dunning's LRLs) is that a focal point is created at a distance that somehow focusses a signal line into the device.
Yet another example of disjointed thinking, and hocus pocus pseudoscience.

[Mike(Mont)]

You might be on to something here with the focused optics analogy. I read in the download for the user's manual that the Magnacast 5000 is able to set the locating range--each setting is for a particular distance (in ten-meter sections). That appears to be some sort of focusing. Of course any waves in the electromagnetic spectrum can be focused, not just light waves. I also know that energy can be contained/routed along magnetic flux lines.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

"Forward Gauss" is more related to optics than magnetism.

Interesting idea. Do you suppose there are optics inside the "Scan Gun" receiving antenna that comes with the magnacast 5000?

[Clondike Clad]

I did not know about your electriccs education.
I was thinking you made your LRL UNIT.
dELL THE MAKERS OF YOUR LRL UNITS COULD BE THE REAL SCAMMERS AND USING YOU TO SELL THEM.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by Mike(Mont)

the Magnacast 5000 is able to set the locating range--each setting is for a particular distance (in ten-meter sections). That appears to be some sort of focusing. Of course any waves in the electromagnetic spectrum can be focused, not just light waves.

Maybe you figured it out. Cathode ray tubes routinely use charged metal aperatures to focus the electron beam, and can also use magnetic coils to focus as an alternative. I noted that Dunning has a background in television technology, which would mean he is familiar with these focusing methods used for electron beams.

According to the Vernell literature, the magnacast 5000 contains an AM transmitter as well as the "Scan gun" receiver. This "Scan Gun" has a cylindrical housing which could easily accommodate charged plates or coils that may be related to the "Forward Gauss" principle in some way.

[Carl-NC]

Sorry, been on the road a while...

Yes, I own a VR2000, the immediate predecessor to the VR5000. Both do not use dowsing rods. I also own a VR800, but it is a "Dell Systems" version*. It uses dowsing rods, like other low-end Vernell VR units, and there is no question it is a piece of garbage that cannot detect anything but gravity. The fact that Vernell sells these units is a huge strike against them, so before you give the VR5000 a chance, you should go ahead and assume it's a bogus device. Guilty until proven innocent.

Yes, the term "Forward Gauss" is an invention of Vernon Rose (Bill Dunning is his son-in-law, I believe). It's a nonsense term, sorta like saying "Forward Ohms" or "Forward Liters". We can safely assume it means absolutely nothing, toss it aside, and move on.

The question is, does the VR5000 work? I've never seen one, and never heard of anyone who owns one, so I can only go by the results of the VR2000, which supposedly uses the same concept. And in the brief tests I conducted a while back, the VR2000 would not detect gold. In fact, it appears to just pick up stray RF, much like what I've found with the Mineoro FG80.

Other priorities have kept me from doing any more testing on the VR2000, but based on what I've seen from it, the FG80, and the Gold Gun, it looks as if radio-receiver LRLs are becoming the preferred type of fantasy treasure locators. I'll try to pull out my VR2000 and take another look. Will also have it at the Treasure Expo for anyone who wants to give it a try.

- Carl

*Dell insists that Vernell made the unit, which may or may not be true... I can only go by what's written all over the unit and the documentation, which is "Dell Systems"... but it's probably identical to Vernell's VR800.

[Dell Winders]

I did not know about your electriccs education.
I was thinking you made your LRL UNIT.
dELL THE MAKERS OF YOUR LRL UNITS COULD BE THE REAL SCAMMERS AND USING YOU TO SELL THEM.

I may not have a formal education, but I do have 25 years of field experience in the use of so called LRL, and remote sensing Frequency Discrimination to know if this tool, works, or doesn't work, and to what extent, and the field limitations of all the electronic circuits that I have tested and used.

Yes, I do build my own Frequency Discriminators and build and sell them to other Treasure Hunters, on request. If I did not use them myself for 25 years and they didn't work as I claim, I sure as heck would not sell them to my fellow Treasure Hunters.

I purchased 2 of the Vernell, Forward Gauss instruments with electronic receivers and used them successfully from a boat, aircraft, and on land until operating conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988.

What has already been done with the field use of LRL, and Frequency Discrimination, can be repeated under the same conditions, and that is a fact.

[Carl-NC]

Dell, I deleted all the name-calling in your post. You've been warned about this before... from here on out I just delete the whole post.

If you can't discuss topics without calling people names, then please don't post here any more.

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

That's O.K. Carl. Please delete the remenants you left of my post.

I understand your prediciment. I know you don't want to let truth, or fact get in the way of the Skeptic agenda.

Since you have proven the Mineoro FG-80 doesn't work have you tried to collect the Mineoro $50,000 challenge? Looks like you are a winner? Dell

[svenax]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

I purchased 2 of the Vernell, Forward Gauss instruments with electronic receivers and used them successfully from a boat, aircraft, and on land until operating conditions deteriorated affecting the reliability of the instrument making it impractical for my use in 1988.

So you are saying that the device does not work in present conditions? And what is it that has changed in operating conditions, causing the device to stop working?