Simple but brilliant LRL

[Funfinder]

Let's discuss and work together in this new LRL-case in an own topic!

But in the Iconos MD 807 thread
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16625
I've reported already about the beginning developments (see schematics below) including these 2 clips 'til now:
http://www.multiupload.com/SHCZFGJA5H
http://www.multiupload.com/FJ82JS1ID5

Today I found a sieve 20cm diamater made out of metal and shaped like a half ball inclusive handle so it serves very well for small directional antenna tests.

And I found a highsensitive CA3130 opamp with FET Input on an old pcb! We electronical skilled treasure hunters are the real one, because we also can find real treasures in "eletronic junk" others throw away!

Estebans Zahori:
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11674
uses one. This IC seems to amplifies already 2pikoAmpere weak signals and upwards:
http://datasheet.octopart.com/CA3130...heet-75654.pdf

btw. all those FETs work good together with photo-diodes so they also can be used for field temperature detection (metal or caves change the temperature of the ground) and perhaps I'll include such 2nd detection-circuit sometimes. Devices you can control by IR-remote use such often black photo-diodes.

My next test is if and how the CA3130 works (alternatives: CA3140, CA3240, CA3260).


@ Morgan:
Thanx for your answer and your suggestions. The diode is an OA95 (any glass-one may work) and an 1mOhm instead the 470k resistor is better, but for even more sensitivity you can remove this "pre-noise" circuit completly - it's not neccessary for the main one.
An included BFO circuit could be disturbing other important signals. And I read you detected the coin-cache (I hope you are a millionaire now! ) from 20m but directly over the coins you got no signals - perhaps because of overloading energies. We also should try to find a way how to solve this problem so the detection doesn't end at some level.

And I found out the FET at least needs some "minimal electrostatic current" until it starts to work! If the antenna has a big enough size you'll get always signal, or if the signal-source is near enough. A 10m long wire also works to get always a detection, but this is not practical.

However, for maximum gain the FET should be attached directly to the antenna or built into the antenna.

btw. this ring detection is very close to the range where the FET "switches itself on" and RRRRRRR's. And only a very small change in position results in a raising or vanishing ring signal.


@ detectoman
thanx for joining us here. I also invite Geo for sharing his experience and everyone who built already such kind of detectors.


See you soon guys!

[Funfinder]

All this will become much more complex as I thought:

The ring in the second clip gets detected but because of some "radar reaction":

http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ebillb/emotor/chargdet.html

7. FIELD DISTORTIONS
Electrify a plastic object, place it on an insulating support, place the FET sensor near it, then make sure the LED is turned on. If you now wave your hand near the object or the sensor, the LED will respond. Your hand causes the e-field around the object to distort and change. Even though your hand is not electrified, the FET responds. You've created a sort of "DC Radar" system which sends out a signal and then responds when nearby objects "reflect" the signal. Some types of industrial sensors ("proximity" or "capacitive" sensors) use this effect. Some burglar alarms do as well.

Of course a treasure also could react in this form if some strong field is behind or nearby, maybe even the natural field between earth and sky could get distorted at a 90° level and create the same effect. Shure, this must be the solution of the whole enigma, 'cause usually there is nothing nearby that can generate electrostatic fields!

Also Point 10 is interresting:
10. DIPOLE ANTENNA

Not only a negative field near the FETs gate (in our case the antenna) can switch it to on, but also a positive field near the whole rest of the circuit! Rub some plastic lineal onto your hair and test it.

Next problem:
11. 'SCUSE ME, WHILE I SENSE THE SKY

All over the earth, thunderstorms are transporting negative electric charge downwards and positive charge upwards. As a result, the earth is electrified negatively everywhere, while the sky is positive. (Actually, it's the conductive ionosphere which is positive.)

Sky vs earth! We have an electrostatic field between ground and ionosphere, most effective if weather is dry and maybe if there some sunstorms.

But there is a solution:
The electrostatic field of the metal has to be larger as this field and the device has to be this unsensitive or antenna that small so this field between earth and sky doesn't get detected.

btw. the following info is very important, also at the mentioned page under 9.:
"It is not too far wrong to say that "static electricity" is simply "voltage." Everyday circuits are driven by the "static electricity" produced by their low voltage power supplies."

Every substance has its own electrical current (or better: electrical potential) and if it gets in closer touch with some other substance "static electricity" gets generated. Buried treasures act like a battery or better like a slowly charged capacitor, depending on the surrounding ground, minerals, fluids etc. Pushing some copper-wire into a lemon also gives some weak voltage.


Considering all of these fact the first question is how to build the pistol. Two flat plates (capacitor style) or more like a dipole? The last one would be more practical and transportable but I will see.

Already I did attach a bright LED in series with the speaker so I can see if the FET is switched on, even if the speaker makes no noise.

And last but not least there remains the hard question if it's useful adding some "static field generating circuit". Could it work like a radar that reflects or amplifies an already existing weak field? I'm not shure - it also could jam the very sensitive receiver-signals completly if transmitted from the same pistoldetector.

Perhaps the antenna has to be vertically so the field between earth and sky mostly gets filtered out - if so a while searching vertically positioned small-plate or spiral-antenna would work best. Or better 2 plates behind each other - the back one acts as shielding or reflector. Practical testing has to verify all these theories. And I will have to built some "pistol" first and test those outside in the field - but maybe better with the CA3130 if it's more sensitive. So I have to modify the circuit first.


Phew, alot work to do. But I love such experimenting stuff, especially if I will find afterwards the same nice treasures like Morgan!

[Geo]

Hi Funfinder.
Congatulations for your thread!!!!!
I read what you write, but sorry i am very busy so i have not the time to
actively participate. I believe after 10 days to have free time so to write my experiences. I believe that you are in good way.
Specifically the "Sky vs earth" is a reality.
Continue the good work.

Regards

[bama]

Hi funfinder,
Thanks for all the information,it gives me something to work with for
a working LRL. I look forward to more posts.
bama

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

All this will become much more complex as I thought:

The ring in the second clip gets detected but because of some "radar reaction":

http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ebillb/emotor/chargdet.html



Of course a treasure also could react in this form if some strong field is behind or nearby, maybe even the natural field between earth and sky could get distorted at a 90° level and create the same effect. Shure, this must be the solution of the whole enigma, 'cause usually there is nothing nearby that can generate electrostatic fields!

Also Point 10 is interresting:
10. DIPOLE ANTENNA

Not only a negative field near the FETs gate (in our case the antenna) can switch it to on, but also a positive field near the whole rest of the circuit! Rub some plastic lineal onto your hair and test it.

Next problem:
11. 'SCUSE ME, WHILE I SENSE THE SKY


Sky vs earth! We have an electrostatic field between ground and ionosphere, most effective if weather is dry and maybe if there some sunstorms.

But there is a solution:
The electrostatic field of the metal has to be larger as this field and the device has to be this unsensitive or antenna that small so this field between earth and sky doesn't get detected.

btw. the following info is very important, also at the mentioned page under 9.:
"It is not too far wrong to say that "static electricity" is simply "voltage." Everyday circuits are driven by the "static electricity" produced by their low voltage power supplies."

Every substance has its own electrical current (or better: electrical potential) and if it gets in closer touch with some other substance "static electricity" gets generated. Buried treasures act like a battery or better like a slowly charged capacitor, depending on the surrounding ground, minerals, fluids etc. Pushing some copper-wire into a lemon also gives some weak voltage.


Considering all of these fact the first question is how to build the pistol. Two flat plates (capacitor style) or more like a dipole? The last one would be more practical and transportable but I will see.

Already I did attach a bright LED in series with the speaker so I can see if the FET is switched on, even if the speaker makes no noise.

And last but not least there remains the hard question if it's useful adding some "static field generating circuit". Could it work like a radar that reflects or amplifies an already existing weak field? I'm not shure - it also could jam the very sensitive receiver-signals completly if transmitted from the same pistoldetector.

Perhaps the antenna has to be vertically so the field between earth and sky mostly gets filtered out - if so a while searching vertically positioned small-plate or spiral-antenna would work best. Or better 2 plates behind each other - the back one acts as shielding or reflector. Practical testing has to verify all these theories. And I will have to built some "pistol" first and test those outside in the field - but maybe better with the CA3130 if it's more sensitive. So I have to modify the circuit first.


Phew, alot work to do. But I love such experimenting stuff, especially if I will find afterwards the same nice treasures like Morgan!

Hi Funfinder

Yes,that´s what we know,the long time ago buried metal acomulate energy slowly like a capacitor,and this with the good weather conditions create what Esteban call the PHENOMENON,

If you think the BFO is not needed we not put,lets try like this.

I also think about directional antenna,and possible with GOLD sample for resonating,the same used by MINEORO LRL´s.

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Morgan

Hi Funfinder

Yes,that´s what we know,the long time ago buried metal acomulate energy slowly like a capacitor,and this with the good weather conditions create what Esteban call the PHENOMENON,

If you think the BFO is not needed we not put,lets try like this.

I also think about directional antenna,and possible with GOLD sample for resonating,the same used by MINEORO LRL´s.

Attachment 12219

Attachment 12220

Attachment 12221

This Head with sample maybe can work fine...

[goldfinder]

Your circuit is what I used to start with when I was researching the supposed ion detection phenomenon. The basic problem with this circuit is it detects the gross electrostatic field and the ions so you end up with a huge noise problem as ES is all over the place. To filter out the ions I inserted a PIC12F675 to read the FET output. I did some timing analysis using an oscope on what ion pulse width is and had the PIC look for the ion pulse width time.

It works great as an ion detector!
Goldfinder

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by goldfinder

Your circuit is what I used to start with when I was researching the supposed ion detection phenomenon. The basic problem with this circuit is it detects the gross electrostatic field and the ions so you end up with a huge noise problem as ES is all over the place. To filter out the ions I inserted a PIC12F675 to read the FET output. I did some timing analysis using an oscope on what ion pulse width is and had the PIC look for the ion pulse width time.

It works great as an ion detector!
Goldfinder

So,thats what we are loking for,the ions and energy around tresures. This device need to become perfect to catch what MINEORO cientists call GOLD IONIC FIELD.

In my prototype BFO+IONIC LOCATOR i have drift(with not stable BFO) but not have the HUGE noise you experienced. Of course the antenna can be modificated for better performance,and many other things can be modificated,this project is open for IDEIAS.

[Funfinder]

Part1: new developments:


Thanks for all your answers!

I've been very industrious and lucky - the CA3130 works and I have drawn/attached already a special circuit for it.

The 2N5485 seems nearly the same sensitive but the IC could be good for extra digital signal comparation and measurements.

Pin2 alias "inverted input" of CA3130 also could be used, as example to reset the circuits static (secured with some 1k resistor and touched by finger).

However - the both new schematics now are perfectionated plus improved in design and can be used as a basis for outdoor- and antenna-tests!

The new attached ultra bright LED works wonders! It gleams already weak before the noise even starts and shines very bright at full signal strenght without affecting the volume!

I don't know why, but with those diode and the 470k R2 connected to T2 basis the whole circuit is much more sensitive! So test all the diodes that you have and take the one with the best "noise" output at the time the FET or CA3130 is not connected yet. If using the IC3130 the extra diode and resistor seems not so important.

The circuit with the FET transistor now is that sensible that I can wave with a plastic ruler from a 2m distance to switch it on or off! It even recognised the soldering irons tip touch to the IC from 1m!

But the most sensitive it is if the circuit almost starts to "open". Maybe you can here the single electrons at this level?

Just the big problem is how to fix this "threshold" level so that we would have always this maximum gain in signal-amplifictaton!

[Funfinder]

Part2: answers:

@ Geo
Great you found this thread and thx for the compliment! I hope in 10 days we will have enough additional improvements so you will come to the right time.

@ Morgan
Thanx for the pictures - i like the trademark logo of Mineoro, it has really a cute design!
The BFO could be used for pinpointing but it also could interfere negative with the very weak static-fields or the very sensitive FET circuit. Perhaps it adds some extra "electrostatic" so the FET is slightly switched on but a larger antenna would do the same.

And if the BFO sometimes receives AM radio it would reduce the whole sensitivity. For creating a low "start up static field" we also could integrate some 80voltage dipole or something like this but a large enough antenna also would work. So far I just don't know how large this antenna should be, perhaps some 2m telescopic antenna for better transportation or a 1m diameter foldable alu-umbrella!

If the resonating works and has a huge gain it's would be a fantastic thing but I have my doubts because a static field usually doesnt "resonate" or vibrate - it's more comparable with "gas-pressure".

But the gold could interfere with all kind of radio-waves and "convert" this into an other or special radiation. As metal it attracts the EM-waves like an antenna, some of this gets "shortcut" to ground but depending on the frequency it also could start to resonate and send out this resonance. If we have the technical possibilities we could "bombard" a gold-sample with all kind of different radio waves, even with short- and satellite signals (very ultra high, short below infrared) and eventually find out what the gold sends out...

@ goldfinder
This is very interresting info, thx and welcome.
Do the ions have a special count per minute/second or how we should imagine this?

There is alot info about ions but what is helpful for us?
For instance wikipedia:
ion, ion-radiation, ion-source, chemical ionisation, field-inonisation, plasma, electrically charged atoms, cathode-rays...
Our task could became very sophisticated and scientific...

________________________________
btw. I found the FETs foto-diode sensor circuit also usable for temperature measuring - it's the final one at this page:

http://www.qsl.net/yo5ofh/hobby%20ci...d_circuits.htm

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

Part1: new developments:


Thanks for all your answers!

I've been very industrious and lucky - the CA3130 works and I have drawn/attached already a special circuit for it.

The 2N5485 seems nearly the same sensitive but the IC could be good for extra digital signal comparation and measurements.

Pin2 alias "inverted input" of CA3130 also could be used, as example to reset the circuits static (secured with some 1k resistor and touched by finger).

However - the both new schematics now are perfectionated plus improved in design and can be used as a basis for outdoor- and antenna-tests!

The new attached ultra bright LED works wonders! It gleams already weak before the noise even starts and shines very bright at full signal strenght without affecting the volume!

I don't know why, but with those diode and the 470k R2 connected to T2 basis the whole circuit is much more sensitive! So test all the diodes that you have and take the one with the best "noise" output at the time the FET or CA3130 is not connected yet. If using the IC3130 the extra diode and resistor seems not so important.

The circuit with the FET transistor now is that sensible that I can wave with a plastic ruler from a 2m distance to switch it on or off! It even recognised the soldering irons tip touch to the IC from 1m!

But the most sensitive it is if the circuit almost starts to "open". Maybe you can here the single electrons at this level?

Just the big problem is how to fix this "threshold" level so that we would have always this maximum gain in signal-amplifictaton!

Here you have similar LRL,more complex...

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Morgan

Here you have similar LRL,more complex...

Attachment 12229

Attachment 12230

Was this published in Elektor as an LRL or an electrostatic field detector?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Was this published in Elektor as an LRL or an electrostatic field detector?

All very and long known and "As seen on Geotech" modified by funny graphic camouflage:

http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=12
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...&postcount=133
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=75
http://www.geotech1.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=95
http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Circui.../staticdet.htm
http://talkingelectronics.com/projec...200TrCcts.html

Roof mounting:

http://i82.servimg.com/u/f82/11/22/64/62/detect11.gif

All about:

http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html

One really "Simple but brillant LRL"

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...lec_p050.shtml
http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html

etc etc ....

[Geo]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Was this published in Elektor as an LRL or an electrostatic field detector?

It is the Zahori.
It did not published in Elektor as LRL.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Geo

It is the Zahori.
It did not published in Elektor as LRL.

Yes - now I look back at the Zahori files I can see it is the same. For some reason I seemed to remember that the Zahori had a parabolic antenna.
In the Elektor article it explains that Zahori means "dowser".

[aft_72005]

Hi
The picture at post number11, below elector article was made by Michael.
He had more experience with his handmade . I didn't decide
Write my dissection with Michael about it ., better say directly by him .
Where are you Michael??? Please say about ………

[Geo]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Yes - now I look back at the Zahori files I can see it is the same. For some reason I seemed to remember that the Zahori had a parabolic antenna.
In the Elektor article it explains that Zahori means "dowser".

Do you have the article in English version???

[J_Player]

Here is the article in English version (Text only)

Best wishes,
J_P

[Geo]

Thank you J_P

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Here is the article in English version (Text only)

Best wishes,
J_P

I see you beat me to it.
This is the translation that I did from the original Elektor article.
You can also have it in Russian, but I don't know who translated this one.

[Funfinder]

@ Morgan

Here you have similar LRL,more complex...

Yes thanx , those schematics are all about amplification of the electrostatic field - some with alot overflues or even important missing electronical parts and with not really best gain in sensitivity because they overprotect or "shortcut" the FET on partial a huge degree.


@ WM6

One really "Simple but brillant LRL"

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...lec_p050.shtml
http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html

etc etc ....

Stop that stupid nonsens, WM6 , those circuits are "pure completly simple" only and if you would read my posts with a little bit more attention instead of just making insulting ridicule out of everything you would have seen that I concerned already those circuits just 2 days ago! Look here: http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ebillb/emotor/chargdet.html You're defeat again!


@ all
First field test yesterday:
My ultra sensitive circuit starts to show the electrostatic field already when I lifted the box up 5cm from the ground - I even could hear the grass whisper - no joke!!!

A nearby railroad-overhead-line was detected from 40m distance with a loud "R R R R R... sound" - see here:

http://www.multiupload.com/I3HKG4QGHB

I used a wooden fruit-box, the top-cover of an ex-sat-receiver as directional plate antenna and instead of the speaker a little active box (those one you can get for mp3 players etc. - works great).

The volume raises by lifting the box more above the ground - there is a remarkable difference even within 20cm of height.

This test showed me that the next important thing to do is attaching a switch that is connected to a variable condenser (10-100 pF) to the FETs gate for reducing the sens - but only if this is wanted or needed and not all the time!

Also a voltmeter could be used to show more differentiated how strong the static energy is, 'cause the LED most of the time just is on or off and the speaker only signalizes "modulated" or pulsed static fields.

Anyone can tell me if the "long buried treasure" sends out such pulsed signals too or just creates a slightly or stronger raise of the electrostatic field?

[WM6]

Hi Funfinder,

you successfuly rediscover hot water. Please keep it hot!

[Funfinder]

@ WM6

Don't we all just cook with water...?

At least i'm doing something useful and constructiive instead of flaming threads with stupid comments like you do.

Did you read Goethe's Faust and now you're thinking that you're the evil ghost that has to negates everything !?!?!

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Funfinder

@ WM6

Don't we all just cook with water...?

At least i'm doing something useful and constructiive instead of flaming threads with stupid comments like you do.

Did you read Goethe's Faust and now you're thinking that you're the evil ghost that has to negates everything !?!?!

I hope you didn't go to all the trouble of building that Fruit Box Hum Detector just so you could listen to the spurious AC emissions from those overhead power lines.

[Funfinder]

@ Theseus
The trouble is it worth to find out what capabilities the staticfieldeffect has or not has.


But perhaps we really have to switch to a much more effective "scientific basis" or better said: "much more efficient detection method".

I checked out the OKM site which is in my native german language and the OKM Bionic Alpha really looks promising - here for you in english:

http://www.okmmetaldetectors.com/pro...cA.php?lang=en

It also uses an ionic chamber and is the same expensive as the Mineoro LRLs:

http://metaldetector.com.mk/index.ph...hk=1&Itemid=26

The Alpha uses 3 different detection methods and finds also new metal located in air or ground!
And I don't care if it doesn't reaches the same distance as the Bionic 01 as long as it detects the metal reliable.


In the next future we'll have to find out alot if we wanna be really successful...

btw. I could buy such OKM Bionic Alpha... - but better reading first all the user reviews I can get! Does this forum contains already some? And I also could visit the manufacturing persons and test this device there...

Here is some thread but I haven't read it yet:
http://geotech1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15680

edit: read it; 4 pages and almost nothing has directly to do with the subject: "Bionic Alpha ?????"
And why is this so? Perhaps just because of too much flaming LRL nonbelievers who wanna disturb a serios investigation???
Please don't call such a discussion culture: "creative chaos"... - but perhaps it is for the right kind of person....