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#1
04-28-2010, 03:41 PM
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Last treasure hunting....
Hello.
Before 10days, i went to hunting a big treasure. Results was not good but i will go again until to find the treasure. My ferrite LRL indicated a place with a very strong signal. Place was not accessable so we spent many hours to "clean" the place. I used the TDI with the 1x1m coil and the 10" coil. The first that i found was a silver cigarette-case at least 80years inside the earth!!!. After it i found a big mine for big vehicles. It was maybe from 2nd World War. After it i received a very strong signal at a place of about 1x1m. The 10" coil detected it 30cm up from the ground. There was a lot of big square nails about 20cm x 1cm. The bad of all was that my MFD(magnetic field detector) did not detected neither the cigarette-case or the nail or the mine  . So next time i will take with me the modificated Alonso'sPD. Maybe to work good at this place with the so many old buried objects.....Regards
__________________
Geo 
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#2
04-28-2010, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Global capital is ruining your life? You have right to self-defence!
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#3
04-28-2010, 05:52 PM
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Hi @Geo,
If I am not mistaken, you have a German S-Mine (Schrapnellmine in German), also known as the "Bouncing Betty" A real "Crutch Amputator", and about as bad as they can come in a minefield. It may be rusty on the outside, but this does NOT mean that the mine is safe to handle, for it may still go off if provoked. I am not a specialist in mines, so please don't take my assumption for granted. But please do be careful !!, and this is about the only good advice I can give you for now. And you probably will find many more of such objects in the same area, for multiple mines are often laid in minefields. From WikiPedia S-Mine Type: Bounding anti-personnel mine Place of origin: Nazi Germany Service history In service: 1935–1945 Used by: Germany, Axis Powers, Finland Wars: Second World War, Winter War, Continuation War Production history Produced: 1935–1945 Number built: 1.93 million Variants: SMi-35, SMi-44 Specifications Weight: 4.1 kilograms (9.0 lb) Height: 127 millimetres (5.0 in) Diameter: 102 mm Filling: TNT Filling weight: 182 grams (6.4 oz) Detonation mechanism Various, including: S.Mi.Z 35 (pressure), Z.Z.35 (pull), Z.U.Z.Z. (tension release), E.S.Mi.Z (pressure and electric) The German S-mine (Schrapnellmine in German), also known as the "Bouncing Betty", is the best-known version of a class of mines known as bounding mines. When triggered, these mines launch into the air and then detonate at about waist height. The explosion projects a lethal shower of steel balls and steel fragments in all directions. The S-mine was an anti-personnel landmine developed by Germany in the 1930s and used extensively by German forces during World War II. It was designed to be used in open areas to attack unshielded infantry. Two versions were produced, designated by the year of their first production: the SMi-35 and SMi-44. There are only minor differences between the two models.[1] The S-mine entered production in 1935 and served as a key part of the defensive strategy of the Third Reich. Until production ceased with the defeat of Germany in 1945, Germany produced over 1.93 million S-mines.[2] These mines were responsible for inflicting heavy casualties and slowing, or even repelling, drives into German-held territory throughout the war. The design was lethal, successful and much imitated and remains one of the definitive weapons of World War II. History The first Allied forces to encounter the S-mine were French soldiers who were attempting minor probes into the coal-rich German Saar region in September 7–11, 1939, during what is known as the Phony War. The S-mine contributed to the withdrawal of these French incursions.[3] The mine's performance in the Saar region affirmed its effectiveness in the eyes of the German leadership and prompted the United States and other countries to attempt to copy the design.[4] After their experience, the French nicknamed the mine "the silent soldier". Germany used the S-mine heavily during the defense of its occupied territories and the German homeland during the Allied invasions of Europe and North Africa. The mines were produced in large numbers and planted liberally by defending German units. For example, the German Tenth Army deployed over 23,000 of them as part of their defense preparation during the Allied invasion of Italy.[5] S-mines were deployed on the beaches of Normandy in preparation for the D-Day invasion, as part of a general program of heavy mining and fortification. The mines were subsequently used to defend German positions during the Battle of Normandy and in the defense of Northern France and the German border. S-mines were typically used in combination with antitank mines to resist the advances of both armor and infantry.[3] It was during the Allied actions in Europe that the S-mine gained its cynical nickname "Bouncing Betty" from American infantrymen. The S-mine had a great psychological effect on Allied forces because of its tendency to seriously maim infantrymen's limbs or genitalia rather than killing them. In his book Mine Warfare on Land, Lt. Col. Sloan described the S-mine as "probably the most feared device encountered by Allied troops in the war." Exact death tolls inflicted by the S-mine are not known, since the Allies did not record whether a death was caused by a particular type of weapon, only whether or not the death occurred in the course of battle. Civilian casualties are even more a matter of speculation. S-mine production ceased after the end of World War II. No information has been discovered as to the exact fate of the remaining stockpiles of the mine, but it can be assumed a majority were destroyed as part of the disarmament of Germany after their surrender. It is likely some were preserved for study and reverse engineering by the conquering Allies. Many direct imitations of the S-mine appeared in the years following World War II. During the military occupation of Germany and the postwar rebuilding of Europe, the American Army Corps of Engineers, the newly established French government, and the British Ministry of Defence engaged in one of the most prolonged and successful mine-clearing operations throughout Western Europe. France deployed a variety of personnel to undertake this task, including 49,000 German prisoners of war. This joint operation eliminated a majority of the remaining fields of landmines on the war-torn western half of the continent and was greatly assisted by the German policy of clearly marking and accurately recording the locations of minefields.[3] However, incidents involving accidental explosions of landmines in North Africa, the former Warsaw Pact countries, France, and Germany still occur sporadically. North Africa and Eastern Europe have a particularly large amount of uncleared World War II-era minefields, lost in the desert sands or forgotten by authorities. In Libya, for example, the Red Cross estimates over 27% of farmland is unusable due to World War II minefields. While German documentation says the S-mine had an effective lifespan of two to seven years once planted, the explosive charge could still operate in mines to this day. Characteristics The German S-mine was a steel cylinder less than 13 centimetres (5.1 in) tall without its sensor and only 10 centimetres (3.9 in) in diameter. A steel rod protruding from the mine's top held the main fuse, where its trigger or sensor was attached. The SMi-35 had a central fuse, while the SMi-44 had an offset fuze. It weighed approximately 4 kilograms (8.8 lb), with the weight depending on whether it was loaded with the lighter powdered or the heavier poured TNT.[1] The main charge of the mine used TNT as its explosive; the propelling charge was black powder. The standard pressure sensor used a percussion cap to ignite it.[6] The main fuze was designed to delay the firing of the propelling charge for approximately four seconds after the mine was triggered. The explosion of the propelling charge sent the mine upwards into the air and activated three short-delay pellets between the propellant charge and the three detonators. These short-delay pellets delayed the mine's detonation long enough for it to reach an appropriate height before exploding. The standard pressure sensor was designed to activate if depressed by a weight of roughly 7 kilograms (15 lb) or greater. This was to ensure it was not detonated by wildlife or natural impacts. The tripwire adapter for the mine was a shallow Y-shaped device and would trigger the mine if the tripwire was pulled away from the mine.[1] Usage The S-mine was normally triggered by a three-pronged pressure fuse. It could also be modified to be triggered by a tripwire. A special tripwire adapter was provided by the German army. The steel tube that held the fuze was threaded to accept any standard German igniter or trigger, allowing the sensor to be removed and the mine to be deliberately triggered by a human operator.[1] When triggered, the mine functioned in two stages (see diagram). 1. First, the mine was fired .9 to 1.5 metres (2 ft 10 in to 4 ft 10 in) up into the air by a small propellant charge. 2. Approximately a half-second later, the main charge detonated at the optimum height to kill or severely injure anyone in the immediate area. 3. The main charge of the mine was surrounded by roughly 360 steel balls, short steel rods, or scrap metal pieces. These became metal shrapnel that sprayed horizontally from the mine at high velocity. The time between triggering and ignition of the propelling charge varied between 3.9 and 4.5 seconds, depending on the age and condition of the mine. According to German documentation, the S-mine was lethal within 20 metres (66 ft) and could inflict casualties within 100 metres (330 ft).[1] American training manuals warned of casualties at up to about 140 metres (460 ft).[6] A common misconception about the S-mine is that it would not detonate until its victim stepped off the trigger. This fallacy was propagated by incorrect United States propaganda during World War II. The mine would detonate whether the trigger was released or not. Standing still or attempting to run from the S-mine would be equally dangerous. The most effective way to survive the mine's detonation would not be to flee but to fall to the ground lying face down as quickly as possible. Even then, injuries were likely. S-mine dischargers, in the form of angled tubes attached via brackets to the hull, were also used for anti-infantry defence by Wehrmacht armoured vehicles. Early versions of the Tiger I were equipped with five such devices. Detection and disarming The S-mine was constructed mostly of metal, so it could be easily detected by metal detectors. However, such expensive and bulky equipment was rarely available to infantry units and was prone to malfunction. The mine could also be detected through careful manual probing, a time-consuming process. Using a knife or a bayonet, an infantryman would probe at a low angle through the soil. It was important to probe at an angle that would not accidentally depress the pressure sensor.[6] Once an S-mine was discovered, disarming it was fairly simple. To prevent triggering while the mine was being planted, the German pressure sensor featured a hole where a safety pin kept the sensor from being depressed. This pin was removed once the mine was planted. If the discovered mine was fitted with the pressure sensor, the disarming personnel would slip a pin (such as a sewing pin) into this hole. If the device was armed with a tripwire or electrical trigger, this could simply be cut. Germans were known to use booby traps to discourage this, so caution was suggested. The mine could then be removed carefully from the ground and the sensor easily unscrewed. If it was deemed necessary to render the mine completely inert, three plugs on the top granted access to the three detonators inside the mine. These could be unscrewed and the detonators removed.[6] Internal components The following diagrams show the SMi-35 landmine's internal mechanism, together with the three-pronged pressure fuze. The safety pin for the fuze and the three removable plugs for the detonators are clearly visible. These diagrams were issued as part of a US Army field manual on landmines in 1943. Imitations The S-mine was an extremely successful design. Bounding mines based on its design were introduced by other countries. The Finnish army began purchasing the SMi-35 model S-mine from Germany following the Winter War. This was part of a larger military assistance agreement between the two nations. Finnish forces achieved great success with the S-mine, but the monetary cost of the mine was considerable. During the Continuation War, the Finns attempted to produce their own version of the mine but with no success.[2] The Finnish nickname for the mine was Hyppy-Heikki ("Hopping Henry"). The French Mle 1939 mine was inspired by the success of the S-mine. In 1940, Major Pierre Delalande of the French Corps of Engineers managed to escape the German conquest of his country and reached the United States with the Mle-1939 plans. These plans led to the development of the American M2 mine, which was fielded in 1942 but proved deficient in combat.[4] The American army was impressed by the S-mine's role in thwarting the French offensive in the German Saar region at the beginning of World War II and continued further work on bounding mines. After the war, the American army developed their M16 mine directly from captured S-mine designs.[4] The Soviet Union also based the design of its OZM series of landmines on the German S-mine. Soviet mines tended to be far simpler internally; instead of being filled with steel balls or scrap metal, the OZM-4 mine was given a solid cast-iron body that would fragment on its own. Later, the OZM-72 bounding mine was filled with steel rods, returning to the original concept of the S-mine. Both of these mines are still being produced by Russia. Other nations that have produced S-mine-inspired designs include the People's Republic of China and Italy. The use of landmines remains a controversial issue to this day. Antipersonnel mines like the S-mine have been the subject of repeated treaties and human-rights objections and are the subject of extensive international debate. References 1. ^ a b c d e US War Department Technical Manual TM-E 30-451: Handbook on German Military Forces, 1945. (Ch. VIII, Sec. V.5.a-b). (available online) 2. ^ a b JTV. Finnish Army 1918–1945, last updated 12 March 2005. 3. ^ a b c Lieutenant-Colonel C.E.E. Sloan, Mine Warfare on Land, Brassey’s, London, 1986. 4. ^ a b c Lieutenant-Colonel John Ingraham & Col. Dalton Jones. Technical Intelligence Bulletins 8(5), 2003. (available online) 5. ^ *Klaus H. Huebner, Long Walk Through War: A Combat Doctor's Diary, Texas A&M University, College Station, 1987. 6. ^ a b c d US Army Field Manual FM 5-31, 1943. Further reading * STEINER: SMi-35 - Japanese website featuring US military images and diagrams of the SMi-35 * Weapons of the Italian Campaign - Details the use of the S-mine and other weapons during the Allied liberation of Italy Please be careful !! Regards, Robert
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#4
04-28-2010, 09:53 PM
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Dangerous place
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Hi Geo This is not a safe place for TH. Regards
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#5
04-28-2010, 11:14 PM
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ferite lrl
hi geo can oyu please tell me were can i found or bay a ferite lrl like yours.thanks theodore.
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#8
04-29-2010, 04:58 AM
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Hi Morgan. Maybe the place is not safe but the info is near to this place. Also my ferrite LRL gives a very strong signal to this place from 300m far. Regards 
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Geo
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#10
04-29-2010, 05:02 AM
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Dr Best lrl maybe can work on air but not in the ground Regards
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Geo
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#11
04-29-2010, 07:17 AM
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It looks like the Striker Mechanism has broken off near the base, exposing the Percussion Cap. In the Percussion Cap is HIGHLY SENSITIVE PRIMARY EXPLOSIVE !!! This Primary explosive will Detonate by Heat, FRICTION, IMPACT, any kind of STABBING ACTION with a sharp hard object, or a Blow by letting the Mine drop on it, or by letting a hard object fall on it. About the same Chemical Composition can be found in the Percussion Caps that you will also find in the Percussion Caps of a Firearm Bullet Cartridge. And they do NOT all deteriorate over time like for instance Mercury Fulminate would. Maybe Lead Azide, and Lead Styphnate, or some other Stable over time Pyrotechnical Composition was used in this Percussion cap. If the Percussion Cap Goes Off, a flame will shoot down the Fuse Well and ignite a Short Delay Fuse which will then set the Mine Off in about 3.9 to 4.5 seconds!! Quote:
You have been extremely lucky that you did not hit the Percussion Cap with your Spade, or any other hard object like a Stone hitting it while digging it out. This Mine is now in a very unsafe and Dangerous Condition, and cannot be Disarmed anymore. And if you continue to dig in that area, then you will be playing "Russian Roulette" with your life, for I think that there will be many more of these Mines laying Buried, that are also in such an appalling condition like this one is. Take care, and please play it safe ! Regards, Robert
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#12
04-29-2010, 01:04 PM
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@ Cyclonite
Hi Robert! Thank you alot that you did identify this "rusty metal cylinder" and provided us with very good technical information. The question is how to estimate the danger, keeping a cool head and avoiding fear, panic and working as save as possible. If the documentations describes: "German documentation says the S-mine had an effective lifespan of two to seven years once planted" it has it's reason and I doubt it's just propaganda to make the foe think he's save. This springs and iron stuff simply gets very rusty, and that mines usually aren't placed very deep in muddy or thick soil. As I can understand the trigger mechanism, if the prongs go out of their "holders", the plunger will press down the trigger by a spring. Instead of 2-7 years we now have 20-70 years - this is 10 times more! Life is life-dangerous, we all know this, but we shouldn't make it by fear and anger more difficult as it is. Creating horror-scenarios what kind of bad things could happen doesn't help anyone. No risk, no fun! And treasure-hunting would be no fun anymore if we all think, the next target for shure could be the next high-explosive bomb, mine or other munition! btw. People also can die while playing intended with munition! 2 days ago I saw a report in German TV: Young bavarian kids (alot kids like to "play sylvester") after WW2 collected thrown away munition, opened it up, took the explosive material out and such stuff. They brought one granade to explosion and one little kid died. ! As a general precaution and also for not destroying etc. precious objects by spate, pickaxe or shovel every treasure hunter ALWAYS should start to make a large enough hole and dig from the edge to the inside ! MDing really is fun and a great hobby so noone should let get it destroyed by panic, worry or even mortal fear!
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#13
04-29-2010, 06:52 PM
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Hi @Funfinder,
Thank you for your kind words! I certainly agree with you on NOT making Treasure hunting a Fear Hobby! But on the other hand, I do not want to be the one who gives @Geo false information by acting like a self proclaimed expert on mines. I am not a demining expert. Neither do I want to give him the impression that all is OK because the Mine is 65-75 years old. Deminers are killed throughout the world nearly on a daily basis, people which have maybe many years of experience. No demining expert can predict in what state a found piece of munition is in by only looking at a rusty hull. He or she can only make assumptions based on experience, and that of other experts leaned in the hard way during field demining. And I do not have this experience, nor do I want to give @Geo the impression that I have. I can only advise him utmost caution, and this is not intended to just scare him. Play safe with stuff like this is my advice, and I do not at all think that this is unjustified based on the design intention of munitions. They are intended to maim, kill, and destroy afterall. If the mine documentation states a lifespan of 2-7 years, then this is probably based on the reliability as designed to work accordingly, and not on demining safety. The military are only interested in knowing how long they can depend on a munition to work according to the design specs, for they depend on this. Depending on the kind of Explosive or Powder used in a munitions, they all have the tendency to more or less decompose and change over time, rendering them with different characteristics than than the original compound. Some explosives will not detonate anymore when decomposed, and others will decompose into even more sensitive substances over time. Mercury Fulminate may become non-explosive as time passes, and high temperature and humidity will speed up this process, and moisture will also interfere like in the case of Black Powder. Picric Acid on the other hand, used extensively during WW1, will eventually eat though the protective interlining of a munition (if applied at all), and form highly sensitive metal picrates, which are in themselves primary explosives, and Picric Acid being a secondary high explosive to start off with. The original detonator is not needed anymore to set off such munitions, for the interlining of a munition will then be covered with primary explosive. This will then make the whole munition very shock sensitive. Even TNT will decompose over time, and depending on the surrounding temperatures and impurities involved during the fabrication process, probably far more than 30 years. TNT will eventually decompose, forming Nitric, and Nitrous Acid amongst may other substances, that will eventually attack the metal casing of a Munition, and again, forming more or less sensitive compounds than the original pure TNT. But you must also understand, that during a wartime situation, less emphasis in put into long time and costly purification processes, such as during WW1 and WW2. What I am trying to say is, you don't need the original detonating mechanism to set off old munitions for reasons explained above. Also, many other factors may be involved in setting off old munitions, and also munitions fresh from the factory. Metal Detecting is a lovely hobby, and we should all keep it this way. We should also try and avoid dangerous situations in pursuing this lovely hobby too. And if I feel that I can give a fellow member of this Forum advise to the best of my knowledge inorder to render his or her safety, then I feel obliged to do so. Just adding my 2 cents into this discussion, that's all. Regards, Robert
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#14
04-30-2010, 12:50 AM
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Robert, you're absolutly right - safety first!
And: "Handle with special care." Geo seems to live in a dangerous region or his treasure is located far away but still heavily (not heavenly) protected by evil mines! Some time ago I saw in a shockumentary (FOD) from ca. 1985 how a man died, as he tried to defuse a bomb with trigger. That was a specialist. It depends alot on temperature-changes, humidity, rusted-through level and used surrounding metal how dangerous ammo, mines etc. still can be. Some became inactive by moisture, others remain dry - and intact.  Not to forget some are still deadly even with rust and moisture etc.Even large 500kg bombs, falling from the sky without detonation are still dangerous - many citys all over Europe have alot trouble with them til these days. It's a tragedy how mean and cruel mankind can fight each other in war, mutilating and killing without any regrets by inventing and creating x-thousands of all such murderous devices. What a waste of life, time, money and other resources. 
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#15
04-30-2010, 05:34 AM
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Hi Robert, Hi Funfiner.
Thank you for your advices. I don't live at a dangerous place, but the place that i am hunting is very far from my place. I believe that this mine was there from "mistake". Anyway, i must take safeguards because who knows???? I am looking for a big treasure, so i must not dig to any signal that indicates a small object. I thank you for your interesting and your articles, since at begining i did not took it very seriously  .Regards
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Geo
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#16
04-30-2010, 09:59 AM
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For safeguards, you can check the treasure with the metal detector when you are digging. If you see there is iron buried, then you can be careful and dig a large hole from the sides. If no iron, then you will know it is not an antique mine or other ordnance from wars. I remember a mortar shell exploding when someone dug it up 50 years after it was fired into a test range. This is a range where the military tests mortars, bombs, hand-held rocket launchers, and incindiary bullets. many of the bombs and shells that do not explode are buried under the ground where they are not easy to see for the clean up crews. The charge from this mortar shell was still strong, but the buried shells at this range were rusted after being buried for decades. They did not explode during the initial firing, because maybe a defective detonator in the head. But when this mortar shell was hit with the shovel blade enough times, it finally exploded. After this incident, a warning was issued by the military to stay away from their test ranges, and they put extra armed guards to keep people out of the test range. Best wishes, J_P
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#17
04-30-2010, 03:39 PM
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Hi J_P.
Thanks .Next time (maybe next week) i will take with me my Sovereign for better discrimination between ferrous and no ferrous objects. The only problem is that i must carry a lot of machines with me . TDI with 1x1 coil and with 12 ", Minelab, Ferrite LRL, Alonso's PD, Electrostatic LRL, Generator, rods .... . But i think that the Minelab must be the first choise for a good discrimination. Regards
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Geo
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#18
05-01-2010, 06:13 PM
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ML
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Yes,the minelab sovereign as good discrimination but iron with round shape is a problem for all metal detectors... Why you not use the magnetometer before dig the target,this will tell you if the buried metal is ferrous.
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#19
05-01-2010, 09:40 PM
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__________________
Geo
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#20
05-05-2010, 01:33 AM
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Thanks for your friendly answer, Geo.
I am shure you will handle probably dangerous situations/signals with the needed care. But Morgan is right - (near) round shaped iron or steel objects can have a detection value around "gold" (my cannonballs as example) and besides: Not all kind of this stuff is made out of iron or steel but from brass, copper, lead etc. Good luck in finding the right "treasure"  .
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#21
05-05-2010, 05:20 AM
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Hi Funfinder.
I went again for the treasure hunting but again without results. The goods are that i finished the hunting without any bad from mines. The only "good" object that we found was a copper ashtray. I will post some photos next days. Again there was good results and bad results from LRLs. I will comment it later Regards
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Geo
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#23
05-22-2010, 09:40 PM
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My LRLs did not gave me any signal maybe because before 2..3 days it had rain. Except the ferrite LRL that gave me a very strong signal from 300m far but nothing near the "treasure". Near the treasure i had a lot of breaking sounds at my ferrite detector. It gave me the idea that there was a bad connection inside the detector but when i went more far it worked ok. I don't know why
.Regards
__________________
Geo
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#24
05-23-2010, 01:38 AM
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TREASURE
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Hello Geo I need to remember you about the silver hoard i found with my PD clone. It detect the spot almost 20 m distance and near the silver coins the PD start OVERLOAD,possible becouse of the huge electromagnetic field. Maybe you was near some TREASURE ? You should triangulate N,S,E,W and see where is the place and finaly use conventional but powerful MD´s for pinpoint.
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#25
05-23-2010, 02:10 AM
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geo may be need block of distant waves deflection your ferrite whit aluminium blind to grounded, or parabolic in focus, try whit low power, or square 9 little bateries
puede probar con menos voltaje, o aisle la ferrita y aterricela, aleje la bateria de la bocina, o ponga otra configuracion de bobina en otra baja armonica
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