Is bee smarter than human?

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by WM6

No, it is motto of the Next Revolution.

You know: history repeats itself!

Sure, history repeats itself.
The same companies will sell you weapons for your next revolution that sold weapons for last revolutions for the past 100 years.
Then they will sell you fast foods and mine detectors when your revolution is over.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by J_Player

Then they will sell you fast foods and mine detectors when your revolution is over.

Then we changed to LRL and go fishing in minefields.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by WM6

Then we changed to LRL and go fishing in minefields.

LRL is religion, not fishing system.

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by J_Player

LRL is religion, not fishing system.

Pretty close and tied to Ocultism!

[WM6]

Originally Posted by J_Player

LRL is religion, not fishing system.

Originally Posted by ivconic

Pretty close and tied to Ocultism!

How pistols can be religion? Ok, maybe fetishism like Money.

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by WM6

How pistols can be religion? Ok, maybe fetishism like Money.

Sure is religion --- believe without seeing.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Because western propaganda claimed for decades Socialism (and Comunism) as worse possible constitution, which actually it was not at all.

Sometimes we forgot that economic system in former Yugoslavia was not plannig system as in Soviet Union. In Yugoslavia was accepted free market system adopted to socialist social system.

It was not Wild West Free Market System, as we have now, but controled Free Market System (e.g.: differences between the salaries were limited to a ratio no more than 1:5 to 1:7 depending on the area and period - mean capable and good mechanic can under some condition earn even more as a director).

Dont ask what is the ratio between sallaries now, between workes that for months do not get anything and directors in the same factories that per month taken 15,000 and even 30,000 euro (about 50.000 USD per month), not to mention those criminals which by different financial fraud robbed all social and state property and become millionare, and at the same time destroy industry and all social wellfare systems.

How can be free those which for month, despite hard work, can not earn nothing? How can be free their families? Where is their freedom? Can those do free switch to an other employer? No, because there is no work for them in destroyed industry. Those can only hard work and hope to final become their shamefully low sallaries. There is no freedom for the masses. But at the same time apologist of free market argue that the free market can only exist if provide complete freedom of all operators. Which freedom? Freedom to die of hunger or freedom to suicide in despair?

We have our country states and our governments, voted by us and now in the service of capital. What are the tasks of the government if we accept the free market system? To serve capitalist? No they know how good care of himself. Government have to serve his voters, to serve citizens. In case of free market system mean that government have to assure real market freedom to his voters as to others free market entity.

Voters, workers and a citizens should not be afraid to be left hungry or homeless: if they will quit with the employer which is not payable, or if their works fails, or if in a dispute with the employer receives notice. Government should assure to voters the opportunity to really choose freely in the labor market, to guarantee all this not only declarative but also material. This means that government should in any case provide citizens material minimum to survival.

In present system condition, the best way (and maybe only) to assure freedom to workers as most vulnerable entity on free market represents so called guaranted "Citizen's Basic Income", (known and applied even in USA/Alaska too).

Please read more about subject "Citizen's Basic Income" on web, par example you can start here:
http://www.accuracy.org/newsrelease.php?articleId=974 and here http://www.usbig.net/index.html

Conclusion: If capitalist want free maket system, they have to pay fo it. Nothing is free, neither free market system. This means that government should in any case provide citizens material minimum to survival. Price for this is "Citizen's Basic Income" - bill charged to capital.

[ivconic]

WM6 although you live in Slovenia, you just explained exact situtuation in Serbia, and i can only justify, it is like that.
No freedom of course. Only freedom we have here is freedom to die, whenever we want and however we want! That is only freedom we have now.
"Opening" domestic market for foreign stock just ruined domestic economy. Domestic companies busted, people lost jobs etc...etc...
Politicians are telling us everyday stories about joining EU.
To join EU, for such small and nonimportant country, means only one thing; to stay as thirdparty country, thirdparty market etc..etc.. Only major EU countries have profit from EU. Small countries don't.
So generally i am not so happy with EU and eventual joining. It was better in the past when Serbia was "closed" market with good import/export control.
People had jobs, we bought our domestic products and most of those products were high quality, comparing to nowdays imported junk from EU, especially i mean this when talking about alimentary products, food, drinks etc...
EU is administering some "high" standards and rules for such products. So paradox is now in fact that their products which obey those standards are actually PLAIN JUNK comparing to our domestic products. And paradox continue in importing their expensive JUNK by hot prices and conditions and at the same time exporting our products by some low, funny prices and charged with some additional, extra conditions made by EU also!!
Now...this is obvious proof that EU servers good only for major countries and their economies.
So generally i am against EU and i think it is nonsence. It is good only for huge companies and very bad for small, middle class, working citizen (majority in EU).
I am sure EU will bust and take apart in next 10-15 years (with or without horrible local wars).
So...why joining something that have no future?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

No freedom of course. Only freedom we have here is freedom to die, whenever we want and however we want! That is only freedom we have now.

Present neoliberal Wild Free Market Capitalist System offer only declarative democracy.

Declarative democracy can not assure human rights and freedoms to all people, but only for those capable to pay for human rights and freedoms.

Present capitalist system on the perfidious manner denied human rights and freedoms and in such way obscuring its nature of a crime.

Present capitalist system is a crime system and must be changed.

[ivconic]

"...Present capitalist system is crime system and must be changed...."

Last moments to change.

Huge majority suffers from small minority. Tough to understand. People acts like sheep. For how long more?

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

"...Present capitalist system is crime system and must be changed...."

Last moments to change.

Huge majority suffers from small minority. Tough to understand. People acts like sheep. For how long more?

So started, declarative, capitalist revolution. Have to be started again:


Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen

Déclaration des droits de l'Homme et du citoyen de 1789

Approved by the National Assembly of France, August 26, 1789

The representatives of the French people, organized as a National Assembly, believing that the ignorance, neglect, or contempt of the rights of man are the sole cause of public calamities and of the corruption of governments, have determined to set forth in a solemn declaration the natural, unalienable, and sacred rights of man, in order that this declaration, being constantly before all the members of the Social body, shall remind them continually of their rights and duties; in order that the acts of the legislative power, as well as those of the executive power, may be compared at any moment with the objects and purposes of all political institutions and may thus be more respected, and, lastly, in order that the grievances of the citizens, based hereafter upon simple and incontestable principles, shall tend to the maintenance of the constitution and redound to the happiness of all. Therefore the National Assembly recognizes and proclaims, in the presence and under the auspices of the Supreme Being, the following rights of man and of the citizen:
Articles:
1. Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good.
2. The aim of all political association is the preservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of man. These rights are liberty, property, security, and resistance to oppression.
3. The principle of all sovereignty resides essentially in the nation. No body nor individual may exercise any authority which does not proceed directly from the nation.
4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law.
5. Law can only prohibit such actions as are hurtful to society. Nothing may be prevented which is not forbidden by law, and no one may be forced to do anything not provided for by law.
6. Law is the expression of the general will. Every citizen has a right to participate personally, or through his representative, in its foundation. It must be the same for all, whether it protects or punishes. All citizens, being equal in the eyes of the law, are equally eligible to all dignities and to all public positions and occupations, according to their abilities, and without distinction except that of their virtues and talents.
7. No person shall be accused, arrested, or imprisoned except in the cases and according to the forms prescribed by law. Any one soliciting, transmitting, executing, or causing to be executed, any arbitrary order, shall be punished. But any citizen summoned or arrested in virtue of the law shall submit without delay, as resistance constitutes an offense.
8. The law shall provide for such punishments only as are strictly and obviously necessary, and no one shall suffer punishment except it be legally inflicted in virtue of a law passed and promulgated before the commission of the offense.
9. As all persons are held innocent until they shall have been declared guilty, if arrest shall be deemed indispensable, all harshness not essential to the securing of the prisoner's person shall be severely repressed by law.
10. No one shall be disquieted on account of his opinions, including his religious views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law.
11. The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law.
12. The security of the rights of man and of the citizen requires public military forces. These forces are, therefore, established for the good of all and not for the personal advantage of those to whom they shall be intrusted.
13. A common contribution is essential for the maintenance of the public forces and for the cost of administration. This should be equitably distributed among all the citizens in proportion to their means.
14. All the citizens have a right to decide, either personally or by their representatives, as to the necessity of the public contribution; to grant this freely; to know to what uses it is put; and to fix the proportion, the mode of assessment and of collection and the duration of the taxes.
15. Society has the right to require of every public agent an account of his administration.
16. A society in which the observance of the law is not assured, nor the separation of powers defined, has no constitution at all.
17. Since property is an inviolable and sacred right, no one shall be deprived thereof except where public necessity, legally determined, shall clearly demand it, and then only on condition that the owner shall have been previously and equitably indemnified.

[ivconic]

Joining EU....Ha! What a swindle!
I know very well situation in Chech Republic (how it was in last 15 years). I also know very well situation in Malta (lived there in 2004/5). And logically i know situation in Serbia.
So...when Chech Republic joined EU it was commonly thrill arround citizen!
Next 7-8 years seems everything went better there. Huge German (mostly) companies bought everything there. Imported products...opened new jobs...etc...etc.. It lasted only 7-8 years and saturated very fast. Nowdays huge problems in Chech Republic. Nobody buying nothing, no jobs, standard is going down. Major Chech companies busted. I remember TOZ - giant. Today...what was "TOZ" ???
Malta...joined EU in 2004. Again commonly thrill ...lasted 5-6 months!
Per diem dropped from average 30-45ml to 22ml in just first 2 months. Next 2 months dropped to 18-19ml (those are without over time)!!!!
All of the sudden major companies closed and replaced to China!
There were 19 major electronic companies on Malta until joining EU. Motorola, Thompson...etc..etc.. All closed their production lines there and replaced to China!
I think Thompson is still there but with much reduced capacity and with production replaced.
So from 19 comapnies to 1 left, in few years...!
How many jobs lost?
Malteze citizen lost thrill very fast. Nowdays those are damn the day they joined EU....
...
I have spoke with old people there. Most frequent reactions were in manner: "It was much better to stay as UK colony!" And i agree.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Malteze citizen lost thrill very fast. Nowdays those are damn the day they joined EU....
...

EU is not a State that is still primarily an economic community.

Economic community mean capitalist community, establish according interest of capital and driven by interest of capital.

Eu is a school sample of neo-liberal capitalist system, which will be destroyed by neo-liberal capitalist system himself.

Unless something radical does not change in the direction of humanism.

As long as something try to change only brave Greeks, there is no hope of serious changes in the EU.

More likely to be repeated story of the bourgeois capitalist revolution, when the changes are taken so late, that was regullary pre-defeat by violence.

[ivconic]

I am also affraid so!

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by J_Player

LRL is religion, not fishing system.

Is a fishing system for metals too!!!

[Esteban]

Capitalism is a monster that consumes all the resources at their disposal and every day requires more... Politicians and government structures are growing every day, then it is "important" to create new taxes and raise them. They also "studying" what groups of people include them for his purposes. In the end, citizens pay taxes and politicians make wars. In wars are killed those who pay the taxes, that holds politicians and other "people".

[WM6]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Capitalism is a monster that consumes all the resources at their disposal and every day requires more... Politicians and government structures are growing every day, then it is "important" to create new taxes and raise them. They also "studying" what groups of people include them for his purposes. In the end, citizens pay taxes and politicians make wars. In wars are killed those who pay the taxes, that holds politicians and other "people".

At the ends I can fully agre with you Esteban.

But explanatios are just first step to freedom.

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Capitalism is a monster that consumes all the resources at their disposal and every day requires more... Politicians and government structures are growing every day, then it is "important" to create new taxes and raise them. They also "studying" what groups of people include them for his purposes. In the end, citizens pay taxes and politicians make wars. In wars are killed those who pay the taxes, that holds politicians and other "people".

Correct.
Bustard politicians (ministers, government) are seaching each day for new methods to take taxes. One day we will have to pay taxes on air.
If we are such sheep than we deserve even worse destiny.
I've been in local wars for decade. I had enough. Especially knowing the fact that all those wars were for nothing and brought no improvements at all. Neither to one of the sides.
I asking myself how to solve this present misery than? Wars again? I don't think so.
I think best way to overcome this misery is to gather majority of people and to start various peacefull but drastic actions.
For example we can gather and negotiate to start synchronized actions at the same time and in massive response. We all can simply refuse to pay taxes.
I am wandering what they gonna do than? Nothing!
I also mentioned few other examples at the begining of this thread.
We all can stop to buy some products from the list. We can make list of all products made and offered by main "enemies" and simply we can stop buying those. Instead of those we can buy and use alternative products made by other, small and independant manufacturers.
We can stop using some of "their" services also.
We can enlarge and spread out boycott on many other fields.
In month or two that sick system will crash for sure.
...
Or....we can start wars. But to fight against who? To fight against domestic army, police..? Than they gonna claim that we are terorists. If we act in a small groups than it is sure they gonna say that we are terorists. So we must act in huge groups as global movement and we must act synchronized.
....
I am not for war and fight. I am for peacefull but global actions.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

For example we can gather and negotiate to start synchronized actions at the same time and in massive response. We all can simply refuse to pay taxes.
I am wandering what they gonna do than? Nothing!

I am for peacefull but global actions.

Yes, global mysery we can overcomming only by global actions.

Taxes are special problem. You cannot to buy something without to pay taxes at the same time. Taxes are incorporated in present system of exchange goods.

We need paralel system, paralel economy (money, production, exchange system) to not to buy inside current system and by this not to pay taxes.

Paralel economy is not only science fiction, but it is repeatedly tested model of colective survival. Please read more about this subject here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_E...rading_Systems

Not easy way to act global, but capital is working for us according to the principle: far worse - much better.

First step: global explanation - anyone not convinced by the activity of capital, need to be convinced by us. Maybe long way. Only goal: better human society is important.

Nevertless, as you say, we can devalue some capitalist mascot as CocaCola start acting now.

[ivconic]

"...First step: global explanation - anyone not convinced by the activity of capital, need to be convinced by us. Maybe long way. Only goal: better human society is important...."

That's first and most important step. Luckilly we have internet nowdays. Forums like this one can be the initial places people to gather and talk. Each member of forum can proceed idea to next 10 people he knows. Next 10 people can proceed idea to next 100 people...etc...etc...
Process could last for years and dilute, but with good organisation and strong resolution process can last just few months using internet.
We can design new forum (here or out of here) specialized for this idea.
What we need are more "starters" - people who will anticipate in starting that action. Even better if those "starters" do speak different languages, so we can add to that forum multilingual threads.

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

".

We can design new forum (here or out of here) specialized for this idea.
What we need are more "starters" - people who will anticipate in starting that action. Even better if those "starters" do speak different languages, so we can add to that forum multilingual threads.

Good idea. Perhaps such a forum already exists? I did not research. If there is nothing like, then I'll be happy if I can participated in such a forum, as you now iniciate, and where you will be, I hope, master admin.

What you mean obout MD as major Off Topic theme there?

[ivconic]

Originally Posted by WM6

Good idea. Perhaps such a forum already exists? I did not research. If there is nothing like, then I'll be happy if I can participated in such a forum, as you now iniciate, and where you will be, I hope, master admin.

What you mean obout MD as major Off Topic theme there?

No. I would like to void that. We need admin with English as native language, mother language. That's first. Second we need a group of pretty literate and intelectual people to start, establish and lead the forum.
I would be happy to join there and post what i have to post (not much more than i posted here).
But i am affraid that so few people will understand this seriously. But than again, that will depend of people who's appearing to present the idea to wide public.
Yes there are numerous simillar "antiglobalism" forums arround the net.
All of those started good and in time diluted...
Obvious proof that people are ready only to talk but not to act....
...
I am affraid we will have to prepare us for worse solutions than...
Wars, pandemias, earthquakes, floods......etc...etc...

[WM6]

Originally Posted by ivconic

Obvious proof that people are ready only to talk but not to act....
...

You are right.

But a words also have a hidden power, which ultimately could change the world.

Remember Bible:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

[J_Player]

Originally Posted by WM6

Perhaps such a forum already exists? I did not research.

There are hundreds of forums all over the internet to discuss better government and economic systems.
This is Geotech forums, made for the purpose of studying technical aspects of metal detecting, and only one small forum for things that are not metal detecting.

Look here in google to see some examples of forums for politics and government: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...m+forum&nfpr=1

Best wishes,
J_P

[ivconic]

"...that are not metal detecting...."

Everything is "metal detecting"! Therefore this forum is good enough to cover many more subject!
Why?
Because themes which were processed in this forum are good for "sharpening" our brains generally. Once man join here and read posts, debates and opinions (especially conflict between "beleivers" and "skeptics") he will learn very good how to think on different way than common people do.
Once man get free from usuall prejudices, he is ready to better understand politics and economy too.
Major conclusion would be that "everything is lie" on this planet (until proven the oposite). Things are not what thay appearing to be, in common world.
....
Problem with all those forums we talking about, is in to much phylosphy and no real actions.
People like to talk from their comfortable chairs but are not ready to go outdoor and do something...pitty!