LRL questions.

[olympios]

The only unit I'm familiar with, is the Omnitron2 (from Dell Winders). I used that device a little over ten years ago. I found so much gold with it that I filled all my pockets and I had to leave the rest for some other pour soul to take!
Sorry guys, I had to say this, lol. When you get ripped-off, to only thing you can do is make fun of it!
Anyway, I see quite a few of them being advertised in the net, so I'd like to ask some questions. Those of you that are familiar with these units, answer the following questions for me, please.
1. Do I have to be a dowser in order to use one?
2. Do they really work or is this a scam?
3. This outfit: http://www.treasurenow.com/html/products.html invites clients to visit their shop for a free demo or training. If the units don't work as advertised, how are they gonna convince the client to buy one, especially when they cost up to $20,000?

[hung]

My sincere opinion is that your questions should be directly refered to the dowsers forum in TNET site. The geotech site has no knowledge or experience in this subject and as result, no dowser is an active member of this group. On the dowsers forum in TNET, on the other hand, you will have plenty of info directly from them.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...0a&board=200.0


However I could try to share some info with you although I'm not a dowser and I'm not familiar with the Ominitron either.

I own a rangertell examiner which is an extremely valuable tool to me. With it I was able to track 2 treasure sites so far which only closer, our team's all electronic LRLs started to respond. I will not start a debate whether the RT unit is a dowsing device or not. This will take (as always) to nowhere and I trully don't care. I really don't know if the omnitron is similar to the Examiner, although both employ swivel rods (antennas), in the case of the examiner, just one, and they deal with frequencies.

I had never practiced dowsing before, but had no difficulties in dealing with the Examiner.

You may choose to consider my opinions and report or not. It's up to you. I just wanted to help and offer you some info.
I belong to a group of very few here who abandoned Thunting with regular metal detectors a long time, migrating to LRLs. And before you mention that LRLs are no garantee of finding gold, also regular MDs are not. A very special member of this closed group here also spent a long time with an ordinary MD and never found anything. Only did when started to work with a LRL.
So, let's put this way: I might be suspicious to talk about LRLs because I'm an active proponent. It works and always worked for me. Don't know about you.

Hope this helps in a way or another. Best of luck.

[Dell Winders]

Sorry guys, I had to say this, lol. When you get ripped-off, to only thing you can do is make fun of it!

OLYMPIOS, you claim you were ripped off by your purchase of an OMNITRON II that didn't work?

Did you receive a factory warranty with your purchase? Thanks! Dell

[PanZero]

Dell,
i understand, that you are claiming that omnitron works.
If it works, then why did you sell them? You can easly find all goods and live rest of your life in luxury house in Monaco. ^_^

[Dell Winders]

Dell,
i understand, that you are claiming that omnitron works.
If it works, then why did you sell them? You can easly find all goods and live rest of your life in luxury house in Monaco. ^_^

You might also ask why does any treasure hunter, or manufacturer sell Metal detectors of any kind?

Omnitron, is a generic name. It and derivatives of that name have been used by many manufacturers since 1987. Omnitron II, was never one of my products, and although later versions of Omnitron II, are still on the market, it is not one of my products.

If an instrument was purchased from me, it includes a 1 year limited warranty, which has always been honored. Waiting 10 years after a purchase to anonomously report being "ripped off" holds no merit for truth, or honesty.

I also wasted a lot of money over the years registered with the Better Business Bureau, State of Florida, and Chamber of Commerce, so any customer of mine would have legal & financial recourse if the product did not perform as I claimed. No other LRL manufacturer, I know of ever did that.

I can only speak for my own products, and they do work as I claim them to work. They have been well consumer tested accordingly. My products are not without express limitations, as well as benefits. As a Professional Treasure Hunter/Salvor (semi-retired) I wasted a lot of time and money in my searches when these tools were not an available option to me. Now, I would not attempt to conduct a field Survey without them.



LRL's, I am familiar with, are a time saving tool that can aid the operator in their search for Treasure. However, the end result can only be as good as the knowledge, experience, and the follow up resources of the person using it.

Panzero, I am always astonished at the rationale that believes that anyone can spend a few hundred dollars for a Frequency Discriminator, or LRL, and expect to become a millionaire as the result.?

I already enjoy a good life in Florida. I have no desire to go to Monaco. Dell

[roberts]

This subject will never expire.
Any eventuall finds made by a dowser can only be explained
with natural borned talents of dowser himself.
Any apparatus used by dowser is only apparatus.
NOT DEVICE BUT APPARATUS.
But LRL "devices" are made and sold only to earn money, those
all are non working crap.
So real truth is those DONT WORK!
Dowser actually DO locate burried items, NOT apparatus.
If you dont have any genetic talent for dowsing than be
awared in fact that none of existing apparatuses will ever
help you. Wasted money and nothing else.
Real dowsers are rare. 99% of "dowsers" you can meet are total
frauds and charlatans.
So, eventually i can accept Hung's and Dell's so persistent
claims and stories about so fantastic finds they had so far.
It is possible those are real natural borned, talented dowsers.
I had to write this. I argued so many times with those two.
They remained persistent.
What i cant and will not accept ever is claims that those
apparatuses really work! Never!
Those are not working.
Dell, your mind is working but apparatus you holding in your
hands is not working.
Your mind is sensitive receiver and any possible apparatus in
your hands could be possible "antenna".
No matter which kind of apparatus.
This is only acceptable truth.

[olympios]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

OLYMPIOS, you claim you were ripped off by your purchase of an OMNITRON II that didn't work?

Did you receive a factory warranty with your purchase? Thanks! Dell

Dell, hi.
I got the Omnitron II back in 1996. I remember I had a long conversation with you over the phone. You told me that the unit is tested and works fine. You also told me that I do not need to be a dowser to make it work. Anyone can successfuly use the unit. I moved to Greece that year and for many months I practiced but could not make the unit work. I also had my brother work with it for quite some time with same results. Then I talked to someone who is a successful dowser in our area, and he said that the unit does absolutelly nothing. The rods, however, can be used as dowser's tool but he has better ones.
For the next couple of years, I had numerous people work with the unit but no one could make it respond to anything. Lately, with the help of internet, I read that nobody ever made it work. So, how do you call this? Isn't it a scam? I probably was the only one who could not make it work; what about the rest of the people that couldn't make it work, and we find out now, thanks to the internet?
.......Waiting 10 years after a purchase to anonomously report being "ripped off" holds no merit for truth, or honesty...... No, Dell. I did not wait ten years on purpose. For five years I was in Greece, and, certainly, I wasn't gonna spend $1,500.00 for an airplain ticket to come here and exchange a $600.00 device. Besides, I just found this site and post my... experiences with Omnitron II.
Honesty? Should we discuss it?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

Olympios, appears to claim that neither he, or his brother ever got a response with the rods even after months of practice and trying to make it work, so Carl, you make a mute point.

Hmmm ... this is an interesting statement ... given that you claim you do not have to be a dowser to use the Omnitron .

[Carl-NC]

Hung,

No, I didn't back out, Michael Tune (Kelly Brown's partner) did. We had a contract ready to go, and he (not me) decided not to proceed. I will still follow through as soon as he is ready, but I doubt that will ever happen. Same with Bob Yocum; I now have a signed contract with him, but he refuses to proceed. You already know all this, but continue to make the same ol' false claims. I can't do anything about it when claimants won't follow through.

You've spent a lot of effort on this forum trying to counter my critique of LRLs. So why would you tell Mineoro I'm not worth their time? Are you as sure as I am that they will fail? Why would you NOT want someone to prove me wrong, to publically "spank" me?

It's funny how you guys would love to see that happen, but instead you do all you can to prevent it, and then blame me.

- Carl

[J_Player]

Sometimes I wonder....
Why is it that nobody on earth who sells LRLs will demonstrate their LRL finding treasure in a double blind test?

Why is it that a credible test of an LRL is always declined and substituted with claims that the test is not fair? If these LRLs work, why not show us all how good they perform just like the people who sell metal detectors do? Do you suppose an LRL can pass a double blind test performing exactly as the advertising claims they perform?



Best wishes,
J_P

[hung]

Carl,
First of all. Nobody wants to spank you. At least none that I know.
I said you would be 'spanked' by facts proving you're wrong about your claims of LRL's not being able to find gold. Such stupid and naive statements makes really hard to believe you still expect to fool anyone after all those years.

Now let's proceed.

No, I didn't back out, Michael Tune (Kelly Brown's partner) did. We had a contract ready to go, and he (not me) decided not to proceed. I will still follow through as soon as he is ready, but I doubt that will ever happen. You already know all this, but continue to make the same ol' false claims. I can't do anything about it when claimants won't follow through.

You know this is not true. Anybody who watched the thread about this subject in TNET forum at the time witnessed how you first accepted Kelly's conditions. Mike would make all arrangements in terms of expenses so you would not be in prejudice. But as time passed by and CLEARLY 'feeling the pressure' aproaching, you tried to twist Kelly's conditions to fit your own with a lot of demands that would make the test more and more complicated to happen with the clear objective of creating obstacles to it. Not to mention that apparently you declined in not giving any financial garantee Mike asked in order to prove you really had the 25,000 dollars amount.
In sum, what is clear for anyone who read all those threads is that you first accepted, buth then apprently you saw that you could not win, rethought your strategy and started to create all obstacles to avoid it.
Mike and Kelly got pissed off and never returned to you again, because they knew they would just loose their time with a challenge that's all 'make believe'.

If you have the original threads, show here for people to know and prove I'm telling any lie.

[quote]You've spent a lot of effort on this forum trying to counter my critique of LRLs. So why would you tell Mineoro I'm not worth their time? Are you as sure as I am that they will fail? Why would you NOT want someone to prove me wrong, to publically "spank" me?[/quote ]

Again, nobody cares to spank you, much less Mineoro. What for??
Do you think they really need it to?

You just have an agenda towards LRLs that is notorious and you have built some follow ups along the recent past. Only that it's completely outdated and specially now that you got what you wanted in working to a MD company.

It's funny how you guys would love to see that happen, but instead you do all you can to prevent it, and then blame me.

You know that your challenge is an utopia. You know pretty much this.
This has all been a marketing strategy on your side made to never happen.
Take Kelly's case for instance. Did it happen? It will always be like that. A lot of burocracy, twistings and blah blah blah. Just that.

You are the type of person (or pretend to be) that you could spot me with my PDC pointing to a buried gold location, you would hear the detector beep, we would go there, excavate it, you would see the gold vein but in the end you would deny seeing it. Of course you could make up millions excuses such as interference, coincidence, thunder lightings, and etc and etc. Something that you could 'scientifically' explain.

Mineoro's challenge is also still up. Did you or anybody here tried to prove them wrong to win $ 50,000?? C'mon, don't you claim they don't work? Go for it.

[Carl-NC]

I'll answer these from a scientific perspective...

1. Do I have to be a dowser in order to use one?

We would first have to answer the question, "What is dowsing?" It turns out that dowsing doesn't work the way dowsers think it works. When scientifically tested using randomized hidden targets, dowsing works as well as guessing. So in real use, dowsing is nothing more than applied intuition, observation, and a little luck. That being the case, if you want to be successful with only an LRL, then intuition, observation, and luck are necessary. But you can also add a metal detector to "truth" each hit, and only dig what the metal detector says to dig. So I would say that "dowsing" isn't really necessary, but something is necessary to get results because, by themselves, LRLs cannot detect gold.

2. Do they really work or is this a scam?

LRLs cannot detect gold. As explained above, real results can only be obtained when something else is at play. LRL users do feel a "response" from the dowsing rods, and swear it's "working". But this "response" is a mind trick, and not real. For those who believe it is real, they are self-deceived.

Now comes the tricky question: Do the manufacturers and sellers really believe their LRLs are working? Are they themselves self-deceived? Or do they know the truth, and are running an intentional scam? In my experiences I've seen both, and I leave it everyone to determine who is who. You can almost always tell by their alibis and defenses.

3. This outfit: http://www.treasurenow.com/html/products.html invites clients to visit their shop for a free demo or training. If the units don't work as advertised, how are they gonna convince the client to buy one, especially when they cost up to $20,000?

They rely on a demonstration in which the prospective buyer tries out the device, and feels the previously mentioned "response". It is truly an eerie and compelling feeling. Practically everyone who experiences it for the first time thinks, "Whoa! That was weird!" Once you convince someone it's a real response and not a mind trick (and most people assume it's real), the sale is easy. I've personally watched LRL dealers do their demonstrations, and people stand there in unquestioning amazement. But with a little application of scientific rigor, those demonstrations become embarrassing failures.

- Carl

[olympios]

Carl, thanks.
I have met some successful dowsers, in USA and in Greece. Funny thing is, they used their abilities to find water, and after the drilling took place, water was found as they have predicted. However, I asked some of them to find items that I had hidden, but for some reason they could not find them!!! For the water, I was witness to several drillings; their prediction was extremely accurate. But for finding anything else... failure. Some of them also tried to teach me how to dowse but, lol, they failed!!!
What I don't understand is this: Let's say I'm going to buy a unit, and ask for demo. I'm holding the rods. How is the seller gonna make the rods respond to something, since I'm holding them?

[Carl-NC]

Water is exceptionally easy to find in most places. Assuming only luck is involved (no experience-based intuition or observation) water will be found the vast majority of the time. Where I live, dry wells are extremely rare. So for water, dowsing seems to work because it's a high-probability event.

What I don't understand is this: Let's say I'm going to buy a unit, and ask for demo. I'm holding the rods. How is the seller gonna make the rods respond to something, since I'm holding them?

The seller can't make the rods move. But you can. If the seller gives you enough suggestions and cues (try this, try that, hold it this way, ...) you will eventually get a self-induced response. Once you get a first response, more responses come easily, and you are quickly convinced that something real is happening.

- Carl

[olympios]

Geeee. And they sell that crap for $20,000?

[Dell Winders]

What I don't understand is this: Let's say I'm going to buy a unit, and ask for demo. I'm holding the rods. How is the seller gonna make the rods respond to something, since I'm holding them?

The seller can't make the rods move. But you can. If the seller gives you enough suggestions and cues (try this, try that, hold it this way, ...) you will eventually get a self-induced response. Once you get a first response, more responses come easily, and you are quickly convinced that something real is happening.

- Carl

Getting a response is a necessary first step in the learning process. After A person learns to get a response with the Rods, I walk away and allow the novice to search, locate and mark the locations of buried targets without my presence. Yes, it is convincing when they discover their locations are very close, or on the discriminated targets.

Olympios, appears to claim that neither he, or his brother ever got a response with the rods even after months of practice and trying to make it work, so Carl, you make a mute point.

Olympios, I ask again, did you receive a factory warranty with your Omnitron 2? If the Omnitron II, didn't work after several months, I am at a loss to understand why you didn't contact me, and send the product back to me for repair, or possible refund instead of waiting 12 years and posting on an anti-Dell, anti- LRL forum claiming that I somehow mis-lead you, and ripped you off.

I have worked hard to maintain a life long reputation of honesty, and integrity, and I take your allegations seriously.

I have to admit, I'm still trying to figure out how pidgeons were able squeeze in and make a nest in the unit, as you described? Dell

[Geo]

Originally Posted by olympios

Geeee. And they sell that crap for $20,000?

What they sell for $20.000??

[hung]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

I'll answer these from a scientific perspective...

LRLs cannot detect gold. - Carl

You will have two options in your new 'endeavour job'.
Either be seriously spanked by facts you will discover that prove your above statements are (and always were) not true, learning the hard way, or pretend they are true just to keep your 'show' going on, specially now that you are officially in the 'orthodox side' of metal detecting.

Which one is gonna be?

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by hung

You will have two options in your new 'endeavour job'.
Either be seriously spanked by facts you will discover that prove your above statements are (and always were) not true, learning the hard way, or pretend they are true just to keep your 'show' going on, specially now that you are officially in the 'orthodox side' of metal detecting.

You might have noticed that my $25,000 challenge remains, and will continue. So anyone who wishes to spank me can not only have fun doing it, but even get paid for the privilege.

- Carl

P.S. - I've noticed that Mineoro backed away from their desire to spank me.

[hung]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

You might have noticed that my $25,000 challenge remains, and will continue. So anyone who wishes to spank me can not only have fun doing it, but even get paid for the privilege.

I already told youself your 'challenge' is ficticious and an utopia. It was just made to self promotion. And despite of that you backed out from Kelly Brown's challenge and almost peed in your pants when you knew you would be knocked out by his device 'live in national broadcast'..
Well, this would be a good promotion for you anyway...

I've noticed that Mineoro backed away from their desire to spank me.

I admit I told them in the past your 'circus and pony show' was not worth.
Don't know if they consider what I said or not.
Anyway, Damasio is ill and he's unable to travel and I fear this will only get worse. But you were always invited by them to show up with all support you choose to perform the 'challenge' here, due to Damasio's health condition.
You never answered this. I'll be glad in telling him if you agree.

If you really are serious about your 'challenge' you would accept come here.
But what the heck, you know you will back out from this as well... You don't have the guts.

[Fred]

Hung,

Do you suffer from Multiple Personality Syndrome?
Fred.