Testing for signal lines

[Carl-NC]

"MFD"-type LRLs typically have a signal generator for (supposedly) transmitting a signal of some sort that (supposedly) resonates with a desirable buried target. The signal is usually injected into the ground using a pair of ground probes, and detected using dowsing rods.

The purpose of this thread is to explore ways in which this theory can be both subjectively and objectively tested. Yes, I have a proposal which I'll get to, but I would like this to be open to everyone's input, to see what other ideas come out.

-----------
Question #1...

When a person buys an MFD, how would they normally test the device?

Or, how would a manufacturer normally demonstrate an MFD?
-----------

I'll try to dig up whatever product manuals I have, to see what they suggest.

- Carl

P.S. -- Those who don't want to participate in this discussion, need not reply at all. Stay on topic -- attempts to hijack this thread will simply be deleted.

[Clondike Clad]

I will like to learn about the so all signal lines.
I would like to learn WHAT KIND OF SIGNAL GOLD AND PAPER MONEY GIVE OFF. So let us all learn about the signal lines.
One question I have is what frequency the cosmic ray is. 100,000,000,000,000 hz or more or is it VLF.
or is it RF. IR, or what?
What is the output power .00001 nanowatt or less.
How it it detected. broad band or a tight fixed detections
How it the pickup anntena tuned .
Well I am not that smart but I hope others can help.
let us get this post rolling

[Carl-NC]

While some people believe that gold and other objects radiate signals on their own, and that these signals can be detected with, say, dowsing rods, MFD theory does not necessarily claim that. The basic tenet of MFD is that the signal from the transmitter radiates outward and resonates with a frequency-compatible target. This establishes a "signal line" that can be tracked with dowsing rods. This does not require that objects radiate on their own.

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

Yes, please tell us, Carl, How does radiate apply to Frequency Discrimination? Dell

[Clondike Clad]

Gold silver etc size will effect it frequency.
the question is what is the frequency of the items detected?????????
Items are of many shapes and sizes????????????????????????????????

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Clondike Clad

Gold silver etc size will effect it frequency.
the question is what is the frequency of the items detected?????????
Items are of many shapes and sizes????????????????????????????????

I agree that shape, size and exact composition could have strong effects on a theoretical resonance frequency. But for the purpose of this discussion, let's say it doesn't matter because, in the world of MFD, these issues are not accounted for.

Ferinstance, an MFD might have a setting for "gold". That setting produces a particular frequency that will supposedly resonate with a gold target, regardless of its shape, size, or alloy.

The question is, how would you demonstrate this device? How do dealers demonstrate them? How do buyers practice with them?

- Carl

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

"MFD"-type LRLs typically have a signal generator for (supposedly) transmitting a signal of some sort that (supposedly) resonates with a desirable buried target. The signal is usually injected into the ground using a pair of ground probes, and detected using dowsing rods.

The purpose of this thread is to explore ways in which this theory can be both subjectively and objectively tested. Yes, I have a proposal which I'll get to, but I would like this to be open to everyone's input, to see what other ideas come out.

-----------
Question #1...

When a person buys an MFD, how would they normally test the device?

Or, how would a manufacturer normally demonstrate an MFD?
-----------

I'll try to dig up whatever product manuals I have, to see what they suggest.

- Carl

P.S. -- Those who don't want to participate in this discussion, need not reply at all. Stay on topic -- attempts to hijack this thread will simply be deleted.

Here's some words from the "master" on this subject:
How Do I Make Sure I Can Use an MFD With Success?

by Dell Winders

http://www.omnitron.net/success.htm
That should be a good starting point for discussion on MFDs.
Also, if you look at the front page here: http://www.omnitron.net/ under the part entitled "Background Information", there is an overview of how to best use these devices.

If you're looking for an experiment that (supposedly) "proves" these devices actually work, then try this -> http://www.rangertell.com/tales10.htm
Not really sure if you would strictly class the Examiner as an MFD or not, but I've seen that it has an MFD mode of operation.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

"MFD"-type LRLs typically have a signal generator for (supposedly) transmitting a signal of some sort that (supposedly) resonates with a desirable buried target. The signal is usually injected into the ground using a pair of ground probes, and detected using dowsing rods.

The purpose of this thread is to explore ways in which this theory can be both subjectively and objectively tested. Yes, I have a proposal which I'll get to, but I would like this to be open to everyone's input, to see what other ideas come out.

Ok Carl,

It seems to me that one of the first things to do is to ascertain the nature of the resonance being detected. In other words, what is the nature of the resonance?

There are several resonances possible and we need to explre and identify which one is used in this method of detection. Here are a couple of electrical resonances that come to mind. Maybe there are others?

At the macro level, a possible electrical resonant frequency is dependent on the object's inductance and capacitance (or if you come at it from the physics side, the object's permeability and permitivity). In other words, the target can be looked at as a resonant tank circuit with a resonant frequency given by its capacitance and inductance. The geometrical properties of the target (size and shape) have a great effect on this type of resonance, thus there is no "one frequency fits all shapes" for any particular metal.

Next, we could look at the quantum level or Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR). At this level we are looking at the spin angular momentum of an atom's nucleus. There isn't any angular momentum unless there are an odd number of nucleons (protons and or neutrons), so not all elements have angular momentum and therefore detectable by NMR. If there are an odd number of nucleons, then the spin is either +1/2 or -1/2 depending on orientation.

A problem with detecting this type of resonant frequency, on gold or anything else, is that the target (the gold) must be immersed in a very strong magnetic field so that all the nuclei in the material are lined up in parallel or anti-parallel with the applied magnetic field. This is a magnetic field very much larger that the earth's field, typically tens of thousands of Gauss.

Why is this strong magnetic field needed you may ask? Because if the nuclei weren't aligned, you would get no useful signal. Quite simply, there would be an equal population of atoms with a spin state of +1/2 and -1/2 and their signals would cancel out.

After the nucleus are aligned, then we can pulse irradiate the sample with an RF energy at the NMR resonant frequency and presumably make a detection.

Unfortunately, it is not even that simple. In solids, the orientation of the crystal lattice leads to anisotropic shiedling effects producing a whole smear of resonances, depending on the lattice orientation. In an NMR laboratory, this effect is circumvented by spinning the sample around a specific plane at pretty high angular velocity (18000 to 25000 RPMs), but this is hardly doable in the hunting fields.

In conclusion:
Macro level resonant frequency techniques are very dependent on the target's geometry as it affects the inductance and capacitance of the sample, thus not providing a unique signature for a specific metal type.

NMR techniques seem outside of the capabilities of the field detection equipment under discussion for the reasons given above.

Are there any other types of resonances that could be looked at?

[Carl-NC]

You guys are missing the bigger picture.

It doesn't matter how this resonance stuff (supposedly) works. The manufacturer claims it works. We'll go with that.

The manufacturer's product (supposedly) transmits some kind of signal, at some frequency, that (supposedly) detects gold. Doesn't matter what it is. We'll assume it's right.

So here I am, with my brand new MFD... I want to give it a try, see if I can really make it work... what should I do?

What do MFD owners usually do to test their new purchase?

How would a dealer demonstrate the device?

What would they do?

- Carl

[Jim]

"What would they do?"

Find it, but not dig it up?

[Clondike Clad]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

The manufacturer's product (supposedly) transmits some kind of signal, at some frequency, that (supposedly) detects gold. Doesn't matter what it is. We'll assume it's right.

- Carl

Now how do we know what signal and frequency to use.??
Do we get the infomation from the manufacture's product or do we ask them.

[Esteban]

Are there any other types of resonances that could be looked at?


I'm thinking in molecular vibration of each material. Each metal has particular atomic (or molecular) vibration. Use harmonic of these very high vibration frequency and go!

[hung]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Are there any other types of resonances that could be looked at?


I'm thinking in molecular vibration of each material. Each metal has particular atomic (or molecular) vibration. Use harmonic of these very high vibration frequency and go!

Yes. This is more or less what Rangertell states. Only it's subatomic vibration. If this gets free out ot the 'macro' analysis and enters the micro one, it will be better understood. Also it's not resonance indeed. But true broadcasting.

By the way, I'm not wishing to raise controversy here, but I received a call today from a friend who lives in another state. He told me he bought an examiner about 2 weeks ago and he's delighted with the device. He said he could find an object hidden by his friend several times and could 'feel' the signal lines when crossing it. I already adressed him tests to gather more information.

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Question #1...

When a person buys an MFD, how would they normally test the device?

Or, how would a manufacturer normally demonstrate an MFD?

Hi Carl,

According to Question #1 in your original post (see above) you asked how a manufacturer would normally demonstrate an MFD.
Is Dell Winders' explanation not one possible answer?
i.e. How Do I Make Sure I Can Use an MFD With Success?
http://www.omnitron.net/success.htm

Or - are you directly asking any MFD owners reading this thread how they went about testing their new purchases?

I assume you are trying to establish a set of agreed tests. ??

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Clondike Clad

Now how do we know what signal and frequency to use.??
Do we get the infomation from the manufacture's product or do we ask them.

Yes, and we assume it's valid.

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

Is Dell Winders' explanation not one possible answer?
i.e. How Do I Make Sure I Can Use an MFD With Success?
http://www.omnitron.net/success.htm

Or - are you directly asking any MFD owners reading this thread how they went about testing their new purchases?

I assume you are trying to establish a set of agreed tests. ??

Dell's page apparently suggests a dowsing experiment you can try to determine if you might be compatible with an MFD. It doesn't really suggest any methods for testing an MFD itself.

Basically, I'm asking anyone -- MFD owner or not -- how you might test an MFD. Or even practice with it.

Here's a similar question... you've just bought a new metal detector... the manufacturer claims it will detect gold and only gold, and nothing else, at average expected depths (inches)... What might you do to test this new detector?

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

oooh! Sneaky!

[hung]

Interesting...
All the answers Carl needs might lie elsewhere.
This subject of signal lines, etc. was all discussed in the old Tnet forum several years ago. At the time, Ranger from Rangertell tried to make his points and was bashed by Carl and others. As usual, atacks among pro and and non pro LRLs also happened.
Is a feeling of 'nostalgia' starting to hover around here?

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Here's a similar question... you've just bought a new metal detector... the manufacturer claims it will detect gold and only gold, and nothing else, at average expected depths (inches)... What might you do to test this new detector?
- Carl

OK - I think this makes things a lot clearer.
If I was going to test my brand new shiny metal detector to see how it performs, I would first carry out an air test on various items and record the detection distance for each.
Next I would set up a test garden with some items buried at known depths, and again see how the detector performs.
Thirdly I would take the detector out on a field trip.
Presumably the same testing procedure could be used for an MFD, but with a some slight variation. Instead of checking between ferrous and nonferrous items, you would check between gold and everything else.

[Dell Winders]

You wouldn't read the instructions and devote practice to learning how to use your detector before you started testing it? Wow!

[Dell Winders]

You wouldn't read the instructions and devote practice to learning how to use your detector before you started testing it? Wow! You're smart!

[Carl-NC]

Originally Posted by Qiaozhi

OK - I think this makes things a lot clearer.
If I was going to test my brand new shiny metal detector to see how it performs, I would first carry out an air test on various items and record the detection distance for each.
Next I would set up a test garden with some items buried at known depths, and again see how the detector performs.
Thirdly I would take the detector out on a field trip.
Presumably the same testing procedure could be used for an MFD, but with a some slight variation. Instead of checking between ferrous and nonferrous items, you would check between gold and everything else.

Ahhh... how simple! YES! In order to test your shiny new detector, you might turn the durned thing on, and wave some targets near the coil. See if it beeps for gold. See if it ignores everything else*.

What might you do with a brand new MFD? Why, you might take it outside, plant a test target, turn the durned thing on, and see it you can "find" the target.

OK, back to the metal detector...

Suppose you don't turn it on... huh? Yes, you don't turn it on... you wave some targets near the coil... what results would you expect? What results would you get?

- Carl

*All the while, you have no idea how the metal detector works, and you have no idea what frequency it uses. You just set it up according to the directions.

[Clondike Clad]

Ok what frequency and output power for the signal lines sand how do we detct it.
If we inject a signal into the ground how do the L rods pick them up and how do we know it is picking them up.????????????????????
At this time I can't get any LRL to work or picl up any signal.
If we can generte a signal we can detector it. but what signal?????????

[Qiaozhi]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

Suppose you don't turn it on... huh? Yes, you don't turn it on... you wave some targets near the coil... what results would you expect? What results would you get?

- Carl

Not quite sure what you're aiming for with this question - BUT - I wouldn't expect anything to happen, and there wouldn't be any result.

Originally Posted by Dell Winders

You wouldn't read the instructions and devote practice to learning how to use your detector before you started testing it? Wow! You're smart!

Of course, it goes without saying that I would actually have read the manual first. And yes - I would do an air test before testing outside.

Originally Posted by Carl

*All the while, you have no idea how the metal detector works, and you have no idea what frequency it uses. You just set it up according to the directions.

That might seem silly, but that's true for most metal detector users. In fact, despite Dell's ridiculous comment earlier, many users don't even try to read the manual.

[Clondike Clad]

Originally Posted by Carl-NC

"MFD"-type P.S. -- Those who don't want to participate in this discussion, need not reply at all. Stay on topic -- attempts to hijack this thread will simply be deleted.

Carl delete the junk we want to stay on the topic.
Some are not on the topic. Let us keep this clean and on topic.